16973 replies to this topic

[h4887]

I think so many people are a bit blase' about living so close to a star!

Cliff Richard used to live about ten miles from here. I couldn't care less...

[Tony Matthews]

Cliff Richard used to live about ten miles from here. I couldn't care less...

That's not blase', that's taste!

[werks prototype]

What car is this? Radial rear engine. Cutaway by Bob Temple.

How about this one off, prototype 'Julian' Ibsen, (What kind of a name is that for a car?)

http://www.flickr.co...202/4592646100/

[ibsenop]

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

[werks prototype]

I was just checking out your own illustrations, on your fotki site, Ibsen. They are pretty damn good! And I didn't realise that you had done so many!

(I came across two similarly great Stuart Spencer profile drawings of Jaguar XJR-6's the other day. Alas, when I returned to the shop, just a few days later, the book was gone.)

[T54]

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so...
OK, what is it?

[onelung]

What car is this? 6 cylinder radial, air-cooled rear engine. Cutaway by Bob Temple.

SIX cylinder radial! Howdaydoodat?

[macoran]

SIX cylinder radial! Howdaydoodat?

aren't all radial engines multiples of 3 ?

[ibsenop]

Julian 6 1925

The unique design of the Julian 6, built by the Julian Brown Development Corp. of Syracuse, New York, incorporates a 60-hp. six-cylinder, air-cooled radial engine mounted horizontally under the rear deck.
The clutch, transmission and differential are located underneath the engine, with the rear wheels driven by axle shafts with universal joints.
Four forward and two reverse speeds are provided by a sliding gear and planetary gearing, located within the flywheel.
The frame consists of a 4 1/2-inch main tube with smaller diameter cross tubes at each end on which the body is mounted.
(Text from the web)

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 01:18.

[onelung]

aren't all radial engines multiples of 3 ?

Each bank will have an odd number of cylinders, so a 14cyl radial has two banks of 7, a 28 cylinder 4 rows etc.
It's possible to have an even number of cylinders if the radial is a two stroke or some other arrangement such as ...

[macoran]

Each bank will have an odd number of cylinders, so a 14cyl radial has two banks of 7, a 28 cylinder 4 rows etc.
It's possible to have an even number of cylinders if the radial is a two stroke or some other arrangement such as ...

OK, so should I rephrase. aren't all single bank/single row four stroke radials built as multiples of 3 or...even 5 ?

Edited by macoran, 07 November 2010 - 01:52.

[werks prototype]

OK, so should I rephrase. aren't all single bank/single row four stroke radials built as multiples of 3 or...even 5 ?

I see what you mean, I think it has to be an odd number, but not necessarily a multiple of 3 or 5. Because 7 is also used for a single row.

Edited by werks prototype, 07 November 2010 - 08:52.

[werks prototype]

It sounds as if the driver of the Julian had a 'McLaren F1' type seating position. As well as 'Victorian' type furniture, upon which to sit.

Julian

[Tim Murray]

An odd number of cylinders (for four-stroke engines) gives a more even firing order. As onelung indicated in his earlier post, there have been many successful radials with seven cylinders, or multiples thereof, eg Bristol Hercules (14 cylinders in two rows).

[werks prototype]

Sulzer R.N.D Marine engine. By John Marsden.

The three catwalks surrounding this engine, give you an idea of its scale.

[ibsenop]

Mclaren MP4 by Sergio Baratto



from italian magazine "Rombo"

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 10:01.

[ibsenop]

Ligier JS17 by Sergio Baratto



from italian magazine "Rombo"

Edited by ibsenop, 07 November 2010 - 10:01.

[onelung]

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too...

[werks prototype]

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too...

Jeepers! Is that radial/rotary or rotary/radial?

Edited by werks prototype, 07 November 2010 - 11:13.

[Allan Lupton]

My final post on the radial engine theme - this one yet another way to get around the has-to-be-an-odd-number rule.
The designer of this probably tried to invent a better mouse trap, too...

As it isn't a conventional crank/piston/four-stroke engine all sorts of rules are suspended!
Here's a bit of what Paul Christiansen wrote about it (the Fairchild-Caminez Engine):
In 1923, while in the employ of the U.S. Army at McCook Field, Ohio, Mr. Wilbur Caminez became curious about the possibility of replacing the traditional crank and connecting rod method of converting linear motion to rotary motion. He suggested the use of a double-lobed cam on the driveshaft, the cam being directly driven by pistons with large roller bearings in their base, the bearings being kept in constant contact with the cam with paired link rods connecting the adjacent pistons in a rhombic parallelogram. The design produced a driveshaft (camshaft from hereon) running at half normal crankshaft speed, with every cylinder completing a power stroke on every revolution of the camshaft.

[Tony Matthews]

As it isn't a conventional crank/piston/four-stroke engine all sorts of rules are suspended!

The pistons look fairly weighty with those huge rollers on two-row ball bearings, a lot heavier than a conventional gudgeon pin and little-end I would think. However, I don't suppose it reved. very fast. It's always nice to see a fresh take on an internal combustion engine layout.

[simplebrother]

The pistons look fairly weighty with those huge rollers on two-row ball bearings, a lot heavier than a conventional gudgeon pin and little-end I would think. However, I don't suppose it reved. very fast. It's always nice to see a fresh take on an internal combustion engine layout.

Good observation - Citing an internet source:
In the mid-1920s, Harold Caminez designed a radial engine that was lighter and used about half the parts needed for a conventional radial while producing the same power. Instead of a crank shaft, his engine used a large camshaft. There was no need for connecting rods, crankshaft throws or counterweights, or valve timing gears. The engine produced its rating at only 1,000 rpm.
The Caminez 447 first flew in 1926. Because of its light weight and low rpm, it vibrated excessively and plans to market the engine were abandoned in 1929.
Bore x stroke: 5.625 x 4.5 inches = 447 cubic inches (7.3 liters, 125 hp).
Proposed as a replacement for the Wright E engine in the Consolidated PT-1 (US army/navy trainer) as the Consolidated XPT-4.

[Tony Matthews]

The engine produced its rating at only 1,000 rpm. The Caminez 447 first flew in 1926. Because of its light weight and low rpm, it vibrated excessively and plans to market the engine were abandoned in 1929.

The combination of light weight and low revs seems an odd combination for excess vibration. Surely it could have been balanced - although I know this isn't necessarily as straightforward as it might sound. Couldn't they move the prop a few degrees?

[macoran]

Another Giulio Betti for your study
The "Grosser 600"

[ibsenop]

Packard by Bob Temple. What model? What year?

[werks prototype]

A very different type of engine from Mr Millar. Giant Cornish beam pumping engine. By Max Millar.

[werks prototype]

Some would say, the rather vulgar, 1980 Talbot Matra Rancho. By J. Mignon.

[werks prototype]

Bosch magneto for the Antoinette aircraft engine. Artist unknown.

[Allan Lupton]

Bosch magneto for the Antoinette aircraft engine. Artist unknown.

Oh, where can we get an advance mechanism like that for our cars' Bosch mags? So much more correct than just moving the contact points.

[DOHC]

I see what you mean, I think it has to be an odd number, but not necessarily a multiple of 3 or 5. Because 7 is also used for a single row.

As is nine. And in two banks, 18, like e.g. in the (somewhat bulky) P-47 Thunderbolt, which had a P&W "Double Wasp" behind the prop.

[DOHC]

I wonder if the centrifugal effect of the cooling fan made it easier to turn right rather than left.

Hardly. The differential angular momentum of the turning car would be negligible. In case the fan had a big moment of inertia, it might be a bit scary to floor it (the car), though.

[werks prototype]

As is nine. And in two banks, 18, like e.g. in the (somewhat bulky) P-47 Thunderbolt, which had a P&W "Double Wasp" behind the prop.

You mention the Wasp, two things that I would dearly like to see, in cutaway form, are the Wasp Major and the magnificent Lycoming R-7755.

[DOHC]

You naturally want something better than this, but this animation shows that it can't be a simple task to make a real cutaway.

[Allan Lupton]

An odd number of cylinders (for four-stroke engines) gives a more even firing order. As onelung indicated in his earlier post, there have been many successful radials with seven cylinders, or multiples thereof, eg Bristol Hercules (14 cylinders in two rows).

Just to get this straight, it is not a "more even firing order" but the only natural way of operating a four-stroke radial.
Remember that a four-stroke does everything during two crank turns so a radial is arranged to fire alternate cylinders in rotation so an odd number of cylinders fired alternately gets you back to the beginning in two revs having fired them all (e.g. in the order 1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8-1 (for a nine cylinder)). The other thing to remember is that the valves are operated by cam rings, one inlet and one exhaust, which are co-axial with the crankshaft and in order for them to work there has to be a simple and continuous sequence. Of course there's always one to "prove" one is wrong as the Lycoming XR-7755 had its four rows of 9 arranged without stagger and had twin OHC on each of the nine groups of four.
From (rusty) memory I don't think anyone used more than nine cylinders/row but I can offer examples of 3, 5, 7 and 9.

[Christianus]

Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so...
OK, what is it?

It doesn't look like an Offy. It looks like a Maserati engine.

[werks prototype]

You naturally want something better than this, but this animation shows that it can't be a simple task to make a real cutaway.

Magnificent!

[Tony Matthews]

Magnificent!

My word for it would be 'interesting', no more.

[fnqvmuch]

My word for it would be 'interesting', no more.

magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven

[werks prototype]

magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven

Some of the links to be found on those forums are pretty interesting. 'old engines' etc

I'm now looking for a 'magnificent' animation of that Mitsubishi!

Edited by werks prototype, 08 November 2010 - 23:14.

[onelung]

magnificence - i think - is to be found in Shinpachi's Shade 3DCG radials and other artifacts on this thread;
http://www.ww2aircra...d-19372-18.html
and for some interesting discussion of the 'inexact science' of radial engines;
http://www.warbirdin.../...f=3&t=38416
steven

Engines with slave/master rod arrangements are "inexact" - this is also the case for inlines (including V configuration) using master/slave.
The master cylinder has a slightly different stroke cf the slave cylinder(s).
BTW there was also an 11 cylinder rotary in WW1, the Siemens-Halske Sh.III, a single row motor in which the prop turned one way at 900 rpm and the engine turned in the opposite direction at 900. Siemens-Halske There's an example also in the Science Museum, Kensington.
Perhaps we should be getting back OT?

[fnqvmuch]

related - and not unattractive - technical illustrations, 14-cylinder radials; Nakajima 'Sakae' 21 schematic
(from Shinpachi), and BMW 801;


(early 'iDrive' ) schematic in-house i guess, but don't have the cutaway's provenance i'm sorry ...

Edited by fnqvmuch, 08 November 2010 - 23:22.

[werks prototype]

'Rolling' with the engine theme, a rather nice, Ariel Square Four. Artist unknown (beyond, RIC...)

[werks prototype]

Renault Turbo V6. By Patrick Grace.

[werks prototype]

Twin Rotary Mazda. By Schlenzig.

[Tony Matthews]

'Rolling' with the engine theme, a rather nice, Ariel Square Four. Artist unknown (beyond, RIC...)

It's a shame that you can't tell from that that there are two crankshafts geared together.

[fivestar]

A few more automobile related cutaways.
1. Rotary Engines




Gear box


Enjoy Mike[5*]

[onelung]

I hope these satisfy the topic title in part...
........................................................
BTW, I recently got to heft a square 4 Ariel cylinder head: LOTS of weight! Big lump of engine indeed.

[Tony Matthews]

Offenhauser Indy engine by Bob Temple

Uh? An Offy without a barrel crankcase and big Webers? I don't think so...
OK, what is it?

It might be a 1953 180 cu in Offy.

[helioseism]

1962 Ferrari 156 Sharknose F1 by Allington.

[Tony Matthews]

1962 Ferrari 156 Sharknose F1 by Allington.

Wow! Another from the 'Mists of Time' series! That rear end would make a good 'Spot the Difference (or Differential)' competition, not so much because of their minuteness or concealment, just the sheer number of them! I stippled the RF tyre, and may have fiddled with some other small bits, but I had been working full-time for Jim for no more than a year at this stage - 18 years old - and Jim drew most of this, I think, in France at his parents-in-law's mill near Le Mans. He probably brought it back with one tyre unfinished and handed it to me while he finished the alternative rear end.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 09 November 2010 - 21:49.