2163 replies to this topic

[GooGZ]

Thats what it sounds like anyway:

BMW: Kubica almost ready to race in F1

[bira]

GooGZ you will lose your subscription access if you post (publish) our content anywhere without permission. That includes this Bulletin Board (or any other BB).

[Romulus]

Would be ironic if BMW dump JV now. Old JV has been closer to Heidfeld than expected. Of course Nick has been pretty unlucky in 2 of the races.

I think JV will sit out the season with BMW after that he is out.

[Bent_Axle]

Bira, this may sound a little harsh... but see it for what it's worthy: the opp. to not tick your subscribes off.

Why don't you guys insert a fixed text at the end of each article that states the material isn't for re-linking or copying? It's standard practice on the net to post links from one site to the next... that you guys don't accept that is fine... just clarify it because it diverts from a well accepted pratice.

Oh well... there goes my subscription.

[kismet]

I don't think it's the linking that's the problem but copy&posting entire articles.

[bira]

Originally posted by Bent_Axle
Bira, this may sound a little harsh... but see it for what it's worthy: the opp. to not tick your subscribes off.

Why don't you guys insert a fixed text at the end of each article that states the material isn't for re-linking or copying? It's standard practice on the net to post links from one site to the next... that you guys don't accept that is fine... just clarify it because it diverts from a well accepted pratice.

Oh well... there goes my subscription.

To be clear: I edited GooGZ's message. He posted the full article, and I replaced it with the link

[Mauseri]

It's standard procedure to copy-paste full articles. Even if it's not legal. It's the copy-paste generation.

[Rene]

Originally posted by micra_k10
It's standard procedure to copy-paste full articles. Even if it's not legal. It's the copy-paste generation.

People should know better....

[adeikel]

Thanks for Clarifying Bira. I was trying to figure out what the big deal was with posting a link considering they wont work for non subscribers.

[BRG]

Anywho, this must make Jacques feel really wanted. The rejection by BAR, then all the talk last season by Sauber about dropping him, then BMW taking forever to confirm him, and now BMW talking about promoting Kubica - how demoralising must it be? Will he respond by raising his game or will he curl up and die?

[paulogman]

JV's wasted his best years at BAR and now is just taking up space.
he'll probably not finish the season with BMW unless he begins to finish far ahead of heidfeld.

[J2NH]

I don't really care what happens to JV, he's had success in his life that most people will never see.

But

What is the point in teams using the practice of publicly putting pressure on drivers to perform or threatening their seats? Everyone, mechanics, managers, drivers, engineers on any team is under pressure to produce. That is a given. But to be successful the team has to operate as a TEAM and that doesn't happen when the pressure of doing your job is multiplied by the pressure of having someone breathing down your back. What is the up side to this tactic? Walls go up, people get defensive, less willing to communicate etc.

Does a driver suddenly think, oh crap, I've got to start doing my job or I'll be replaced? Doh, I think he already knows that. So what's the point?

[FSS]

Kubica is ultra talented as i said in previous post. he raced in Brasil in 2002, i think and he was nothing but brilliant, he didn´t know the track but still set the pole and won (FRenault) the race, IRC.

[mikedeering]

My reading of Thiessen's comments is that Kubica isn't currently ready for a drive. So JV isn't going anywhere. Towards the end of the year Kubica could be in line for a drive - so that will motivate him to continue his form with the carrot of a 2007 driving contract. JV will see out the season and probably be dropped, but again if he carries on performing well maybe he will be asked to stay. I see the comments more as an oportunity to praise Kubica rather than knock Villeneuve.

[Bent_Axle]

Sorry to have taken this topic off its tracks.

I for one would like to see JV stick around, but the yardstick doesn't lie does it. JV could've made Nick look so absolutely average had he been able to pit behind the last safety car rather than ahead of it in Australia. Oh well.

[fastlegs]

I was going to say that this appears to be another case of Mario Theissen acting like an asshole when it comes to JV, but I guess that may be a little harsh.

The bottom line is JV must outperform NH this season.

If he does, he'll make hard for BMW to let him go.

If he doesn't, he is history.

[BWL]

Although Kubica clearly has some talent I don't think he is currently faster than either Heidfeld or JV. We have seen a long list of drivers who shine in Friday practices that have yet to land full time race drives. All of the prognostications are a bit premature in my opinion.

[McHulme]

The easy assumption is that its JV who will lose his seat to Kubica, given his interesting history and Nicks long-term contract, but if Nick is the one that under-performs, why wouldn't Kubica take his place for a couple of races at the end of the season? Do we know for sure that Nick has a "must drive every race" clause in his contract? Surely he has a performance clause. And surely it only makes sense to make the least competitive driver sit out the races where the up-and-comer gets a shot. Of course, this might be too sensible by half...

[Calorus]

Originally posted by BWL
Although Kubica clearly has some talent I don't think he is currently faster than either Heidfeld or JV. We have seen a long list of drivers who shine in Friday practices that have yet to land full time race drives. All of the prognostications are a bit premature in my opinion.

True, I do not think that Friday times are at all representative. The main issue, is that Kubica has something JV can't claim to have: Potential.

The problem is that as fast as JV is, you'd have to argue that he's more likely to start slowing down, than speeding up, whereas Kubica still has much to learn and is getting there. I don't want JV out of the sport, but I think if Kubica and JV are in the same ball park consistently, RK's the better bet.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by mikedeering
I see the comments more as an oportunity to praise Kubica rather than knock Villeneuve.

Me to.

In local press Kubica recently summed up his three 'fridays' on unknown tracks, saying that he usually knew his way around after 5 laps. He also said that he had numerous ocassions to chase faster times but he did not care about , as his aim was to keep same driving lines, with no further experiments on lines and braking points and to maintain unchanged driving rythm to drive all laps in a way that will give the team best comparison basis to setup changes.

I think that mature approach was being appreciated by team and they wanted to communicate that, as the last thing they need is Kubica totalling his car on Practice 1, only becasue 21 year-old wants to 'beat' Wurz or Davidson...

[Paul Parker]

JV out Kubica in? Hardly surprising; BMW presumably only kept him due to contractual obligations and he did not come cheap as we all know.

paulogman accurately observed Villeneuve wasted his best years at BAR, but I would also suggest that short of physical deterioration, some drivers' form fades away simply due to lack of motivation. This is especially true if the machinery is only second rate. Also has JV's eyesight significantly worsened (his father was already suffering some problems before he died).

[jnp]

And the JV bashing resumes...

what else is new...

JV doing better than NH, and still many find little words, "ifs" and "buts" to try to bash him. So sad.

We live in the "bashing everybody you can" era.

oh! well...

jnp

[SpamJet]

It would be enough that JV is on par with NH, as then any team owner needing drivers would be getting a massively marketable NH. Speed,sponsers and car sales, u can't go wrong.

As for Kubica, Tyson might be hinting at loaning him out or its a ploy for contract negotiations with JV.

[xype]

Originally posted by SpamJet
As for Kubica, Tyson might be hinting at loaning him out or its a ploy for contract negotiations with JV.

That's hat I thought first, too. It's not like it would be a stupid thing to do to let Kubica have a season with Minardi, er, Midland or whatnot.

Up until now, BMW has only shown signs of a very strategical approach to the whole Our Own F1 Team concept. They're not too loud about it, they make careful steps into the right direction and they are slowly and surely moving forward (from what I've seen). While having Kubica in a BMW seat in 2007 is of course possible, that does not mean that BMW wont rather go with the trusty and proven Briatore approach of having Kubica race 1 season for a lesser team and then be promoted to the main team.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by xype

That's hat I thought first, too. It's not like it would be a stupid thing to do to let Kubica have a season with Minardi, er, Midland or whatnot.

Up until now, BMW has only shown signs of a very strategical approach to the whole Our Own F1 Team concept. They're not too loud about it, they make careful steps into the right direction and they are slowly and surely moving forward (from what I've seen). While having Kubica in a BMW seat in 2007 is of course possible, that does not mean that BMW wont rather go with the trusty and proven Briatore approach of having Kubica race 1 season for a lesser team and then be promoted to the main team.

They're also the only engine-manufacturer with no 'junior'. They might do well to consider that in the same breath.

[Corners]

Thinking back a few months it seemed Theissen wasn't interested in having JV in the team and basically carried the contract on due to the expense of buying him out of it, I think we all agree on that don't we ?
He hasn't been a waste of time or anything he's not driven badly even though Heidfeld always looked/looks the better of the two, its just that JV wasn't looking like a BMW driver at all at one point. We need to remind ourselves of the vibe from BMW towards Jacques a few months ago when they bought out Sauber.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by xype

While having Kubica in a BMW seat in 2007 is of course possible, that does not mean that BMW wont rather go with the trusty and proven Briatore approach of having Kubica race 1 season for a lesser team and then be promoted to the main team.

The only questions is where? FB did a masterstroke in paying for Alonso's Minardi year. But this options is gone as RedBull has its own long list of young drivers they invested in and who are precisely planned within RB marketing strategies.

Aguri will stick to Japaneese drivers or rather get Davidson.

Midland seems to be the only place. But they will rather look for Russian youngster with gazillion dollar sponsorship if they can. But wait.. What about nicely priced offer for delivery of restricted BMW V10?

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Gemini

I think that mature approach was being appreciated by team and they wanted to communicate that, as the last thing they need is Kubica totalling his car on Practice 1, only becasue 21 year-old wants to 'beat' Wurz or Davidson...

A good sensible aproach it is too. There isn't any point in even trying to beat Davidsons time as I think the planet has now realised he sets all his fast times on fumes. See how he was yet again utterly ignored by teams for a race drive in the off season, rent-a-drives excluded, although I assume his management wil have even made those approaches, not the rent-a-drive teams.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by xype
While having Kubica in a BMW seat in 2007 is of course possible, that does not mean that BMW wont rather go with the trusty and proven Briatore approach of having Kubica race 1 season for a lesser team and then be promoted to the main team.

What would be the point in that though? BMW, at the moment, ARE a lesser team performance wise. Not the worst, but not the best.

For all they'll be doing for the rest of this season and next season (while the Sauber to BMW transition continues) they might as well let Kubica race for the real deal. That way he'll be fully integrated into the race team, ready for the time when BMW's big performance kicks in (if it does).

I (used) to be the worlds biggest JV fan, but even I can see he is dead wood now. I don't see any harm in RK taking JV's place at the end of the season.

"Jacques - do zobeczenia..."

[Calorus]

Originally posted by Imperial


A good sensible aproach it is too. There isn't any point in even trying to beat Davidsons time as I think the planet has now realised he sets all his fast times on fumes. See how he was yet again utterly ignored by teams for a race drive in the off season, rent-a-drives excluded, although I assume his management wil have even made those approaches, not the rent-a-drive teams.

Yeah, he sets his fastest times on fumes with most of the revs, but if you think about the current quali format, so does everyone, and since they test both for qualy and the race, so do all the Friday drivers. He tops every Friday because he's got the fastest car of any of the Friday boys. In practice he's probably been over looked because he's never proven himself in a race, and because he's looking far to comfortable. If he doesn't get a seat at Honda or Aguri (unlikely with his passport) he may never race again.

For Kubica, however, he's a classic tester, someone who's on his way in, fresh from the "juniors", he'll likely graduate either in 2007 or 2008, if they stay as positive as they're pretending to be.

[skylark68]

Jacques this; Jacques that; Jacques didn't do this; Jacques didn't do that; Jacques was seen wearing a hat; Jacques dropped his glasses. He gets more flippin ink on more flippin topics than everyone combined.

Jacques has adapted to these V8's better than I think most expected and I still see room for improvement here. He is driving with confidence and likes this new race car, as noted in an article on this website (and which I am afraid to reference at this time).

He will continue to impress, which, to the chagrin of the JV bashers, will give you yet more fodder to find new and novel ways to bring about a weird topic to express your negativity ---- he should do better than Heidfeld, rest assured.

And, the title of the thread misleads - is this your perception of what you read; is this something you know that we don;t; why is the thread title so definitive? (oh, let me guess...)

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by micra_k10
It's standard procedure to copy-paste full articles. Even if it's not legal. It's the copy-paste generation.

it isn't *right* . Bira is entitled to defend Autosport's IP, In fact, as a paying subscriber I would be dissapointed if she didn't.

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by J2NH
I don't really care what happens to JV, he's had success in his life that most people will never see.

But

What is the point in teams using the practice of publicly putting pressure on drivers to perform or threatening their seats? Everyone, mechanics, managers, drivers, engineers on any team is under pressure to produce. That is a given. But to be successful the team has to operate as a TEAM and that doesn't happen when the pressure of doing your job is multiplied by the pressure of having someone breathing down your back. What is the up side to this tactic? Walls go up, people get defensive, less willing to communicate etc.

Does a driver suddenly think, oh crap, I've got to start doing my job or I'll be replaced? Doh, I think he already knows that. So what's the point?

Nail - head - direct hit
It is the absolute worst management philosophy ever.

Good luck finding a long standing successfully run company using this management philosophy. It will be a rare find indeed.

[skinnylizard]

"If he keeps growing like this, he would be race ripe towards the end of the year.

talk about reaching dude. this is what was said. assuming he continues the way he is he will be ready. if he isnt then he wont.

jeez.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by skylark68
Jacques this; Jacques that; Jacques didn't do this; Jacques didn't do that; Jacques was seen wearing a hat; Jacques dropped his glasses. He gets more flippin ink on more flippin topics than everyone combined.

Jacques has adapted to these V8's better than I think most expected and I still see room for improvement here. He is driving with confidence and likes this new race car, as noted in an article on this website (and which I am afraid to reference at this time).

He will continue to impress, which, to the chagrin of the JV bashers, will give you yet more fodder to find new and novel ways to bring about a weird topic to express your negativity ---- he should do better than Heidfeld, rest assured.

And, the title of the thread misleads - is this your perception of what you read; is this something you know that we don;t; why is the thread title so definitive? (oh, let me guess...)

Well put it this way, BMW have come out and stated Kubica will be race ready by the end of the year. They didn't even want Villenueve for this season, nevermind any FURTHER seasons after it.

People are just reading into this what is dazzlingly obvious.

I seriously was a big JV fan back in the day, but he simply is dead wood in the same way that Damon Hill was dead wood in his last maybe two seasons.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
JV out Kubica in? Hardly surprising; BMW presumably only kept him due to contractual obligations and he did not come cheap as we all know.

I think it's more correct to say: "He wasn't to leave cheap"

Whoever bargained that Sauber contract for him is a genious and making Peter Sauber look more of a blind, innocent leader, trapped by some clever managers.


Henri

[LuckyStrike1]

Theissen just says that he is developng and readey to race in F1 towards the end of the year. I don't interpret that in any way as some pressure on current drivers, or that Kubica is ready to replace any of them during the season ... have I missed something?

That Villeneuve probably is out of the team, and F1, after this year is kinda expected. That Kubica would take his place I think would be very unexpected - especially considering some of the drivers that are on the market for the next season.

[flyer72]

I don't think BMW will upgrade Kubica anytime soon, and it is too early to tell if JV will stay at BMW or not.

Theissen only says that Kubica MIGHT be ready to race at the end of the season - if he keeps on developing like he does. That might sound good. But read it like it is meant. It means Kubica has little chance to be upgraded.

BMW will have to finalize their 2007 lineup sometime this summer unless they want to miss out on those who are available. You can't forget that several top drivers are on the market! Add to that fact that Thiessen is a german engineer. There is NO CHANCE IN HELL that he will take a risk with an unproven driver like Kubica. Why not? He won't do that unless he got a technical "gutachten" from a third party (preferably a german Institute) sealed and stamped 12 times that guarrantees Kubica's success. If Kubica doesn't deliver - Theissen could be blamed. Don't expect Theissen to take any risks at all.

JV will of course have to equal or beat Heidfeld to keep his seat. And even if he achieves that, Theissen could go with someone else. But Kubica? Not likely.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by flyer72

Thiessen is a german engineer. There is NO CHANCE IN HELL that he will take a risk with an unproven driver like Kubica. Why not? He won't do that unless he got a technical "gutachten" from a third party (preferably a german Institute) sealed and stamped 12 times that guarrantees Kubica's success. If Kubica doesn't deliver - Theissen could be blamed. Don't expect Theissen to take any risks at all.

JV will of course have to equal or beat Heidfeld to keep his seat. And even if he achieves that, Theissen could go with someone else. But Kubica? Not likely.

So why did he sign him as third driver in first place?

Not that I don't see proportions between test driver and race seat... but they WERE proven, experienced drivers with "gutachten" available for BMW third car

[xype]

Urm, just a quick question - I think I read someplace that Kubica is on a loan from Renault for 2 seasons. Is that true or did I mix him up with another driver?

[metz]

Thiessen made these coments to keep Kubica motivated and to tell him he is doing a great job.
I see nothing in the quote that a possible drive would mean it is with BMW. I read this as saying that they have a good backup should anything happen (injury, sickness, etc) to their regular drivers. And when it comes to health and injury, Nick is more at risk than JV.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by xype
Urm, just a quick question - I think I read someplace that Kubica is on a loan from Renault for 2 seasons. Is that true or did I mix him up with another driver?

No. BMW contract only.

[steeng]

Originally posted by Gemini


So why did he sign him as third driver in first place?

Not that I don't see proportions between test driver and race seat... but they WERE proven, experienced drivers with "gutachten" available for BMW third car

All the other candidates for the third car (Wurz, and if you believed the rumors at the time almost every other F1 driver) wanted the guarantee of a race seat in 2007, something that BMW refused to give them.

BMW is not going to take Kubica next year because he's too inexperienced. He should be farmed out to another team to get race experience. There's a lot of other experienced drivers available to BMW for 2007. Villenueve, Trulli, Montoya, Weber, Fisichella, even Massa are all better choices.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by micra_k10
It's standard procedure to copy-paste full articles. Even if it's not legal. It's the copy-paste generation.

Perhaps it's time to review the definition of the term "legal"?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by metz
Thiessen made these coments to keep Kubica motivated and to tell him he is doing a great job.
I see nothing in the quote that a possible drive would mean it is with BMW. I read this as saying that they have a good backup should anything happen (injury, sickness, etc) to their regular drivers. And when it comes to health and injury, Nick is more at risk than JV.

Also recall this news item: Williams praise Wurz's work on April 10th, which fits that the BMW comments are to encourage Kubica, and also to continue their PR program of keeping news items flowing, of which there have been several from BMW F1 lately.

[skylark68]

Originally posted by Imperial


Well put it this way, BMW have come out and stated Kubica will be race ready by the end of the year. They didn't even want Villenueve for this season, nevermind any FURTHER seasons after it.

People are just reading into this what is dazzlingly obvious.

I seriously was a big JV fan back in the day, but he simply is dead wood in the same way that Damon Hill was dead wood in his last maybe two seasons.

Hmmmm - lots to digest here... I am not so sure BMW did not wany him? I heard lots of scuttlebutt, but I can't recall a specific quote or source. Help here would be useful.

I do not think is is dazzingly obvious. It may be implicit, but it is certainly not dazzling, unless all of what we speak of Jacques is into itself dazzling? No? A small set of commentary as dazzling gives stories about Jacques much to much importance, thus making my case that essentially Jacques could fart and bashers/others would try to determine what he had eaten for supper, then complain it wasn't steak. From that would be deduced he isn't fit, etc., etc., etc. Dazzlingly obvious, eh?

Your tie in to Hill begs analysis from you as I do not see the smiliarities here, but what strikes me as curious is how you have jumped off the wagon, so to speak. Just how does one go from being "seriously a big JV fan" to calling him dead wood. This is perhaps the most fascinating component of your expose and one which requires further scrutiny and explanation. I have been a JV fan for a very, very long time, remined of fan sites that you would probably never have seen as the internet was just a fledgling lad back then. I really believe that core group of fans continue to be fans and in no way would call him dead wood.

Jacques is not doing so badly and maybe, just maybe, he will pull off what no one expects this year.... I will await the article that finishes him off and suspect it will be some time in coming...

[Imperial]

Originally posted by skylark68


Hmmmm - lots to digest here... I am not so sure BMW did not wany him? I heard lots of scuttlebutt, but I can't recall a specific quote or source. Help here would be useful.

I do not think is is dazzingly obvious. It may be implicit, but it is certainly not dazzling, unless all of what we speak of Jacques is into itself dazzling? No? A small set of commentary as dazzling gives stories about Jacques much to much importance, thus making my case that essentially Jacques could fart and bashers/others would try to determine what he had eaten for supper, then complain it wasn't steak. From that would be deduced he isn't fit, etc., etc., etc. Dazzlingly obvious, eh?

Your tie in to Hill begs analysis from you as I do not see the smiliarities here, but what strikes me as curious is how you have jumped off the wagon, so to speak. Just how does one go from being "seriously a big JV fan" to calling him dead wood. This is perhaps the most fascinating component of your expose and one which requires further scrutiny and explanation. I have been a JV fan for a very, very long time, remined of fan sites that you would probably never have seen as the internet was just a fledgling lad back then. I really believe that core group of fans continue to be fans and in no way would call him dead wood.

Jacques is not doing so badly and maybe, just maybe, he will pull off what no one expects this year.... I will await the article that finishes him off and suspect it will be some time in coming...

I used to be a big JV fan and now think he is dead wood, in the same way that I used to be a big fan of The Cure and also think they are now dead wood. Even the shiniest, nicest looking piece of wood rots eventually.

BMW's month's of dithering, before confirming JV for 2006, is all the proof you need that they didn't want him. Do you believe, as most people do, that their lawyers/deal makers spent all those months (after ALREADY confirming Heidfeld) trying to find loopholes to fire JV or strike a deal with him to leave, or do you just think the PR departments printer had ran out of ink, they couldn't find a suitable toner cartridge for it, and thus it was several months before they could put out a press release to confirm JV for 2006? Hmmm.

The similarity to Hill is simple in that both spent (well JV is still doing this) their last seasons tooling around with clearly no more skill or hunger left to redo their former glories.

So, dead wood in fact.

The Jacques Villenueve Decline is the saddest thing I have ever witnessed in F1, other than Senna's passing. JV could have and should have been as big as Schumacher, but he blew it. I lost my faith in him long ago, as I have since done with Juan Pablo Montoya. I have extreme doubts now as to whether Montoya will ever win the championship.

No article is required to finish off JV, he did it to himself long ago.

I believe Kubica will take the 2nd BMW seat next year alongside Heidfeld.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Bent_Axle
Bira, this may sound a little harsh... but see it for what it's worthy: the opp. to not tick your subscribes off.

Why don't you guys insert a fixed text at the end of each article that states the material isn't for re-linking or copying? It's standard practice on the net to post links from one site to the next... that you guys don't accept that is fine... just clarify it because it diverts from a well accepted pratice.

Oh well... there goes my subscription.

I don't believe it's standard practice to post paid for content no.

Midland seems to be the only place. But they will rather look for Russian youngster with gazillion dollar sponsorship if they can. But wait.. What about nicely priced offer for delivery of restricted BMW V10

What would they do with one of them? It'd be illegal to run it.

[Jacquesback]

Originally posted by Imperial
BMW's month's of dithering, before confirming JV for 2006, is all the proof you need that they didn't want him. Do you believe, as most people do, that their lawyers/deal makers spent all those months (after ALREADY confirming Heidfeld) trying to find loopholes to fire JV or strike a deal with him to leave, or do you just think the PR departments printer had ran out of ink, they couldn't find a suitable toner cartridge for it, and thus it was several months before they could put out a press release to confirm JV for 2006? Hmmm.

Did you ever consider the fact that there was no need to confirm JV as he already had a contract!

Ever heard of loyalty?

[xype]

Originally posted by Jacquesback
Ever heard of loyalty?

There's no such thing in Formula 1.