40 replies to this topic

[MortenF1]

Following on from this thread; http://forums.autosp...&threadid=88251 , I've now done the numbers based on the season in full.

I've used the times set in the second qualifying session as my basis, as that's when everyone is on low fuel (but the fuel loads still vary slightly), which should make the comparison fairer.
However I'm aware that these numbers will not provide us with a definite answer as to how much faster on average the leading driver in whichever team is (that's why I wrote "vague?"), but it should give us an indication. The result might be a bit misleading due to several factors; one is, atleast applying to drivers in the top teams, that they are not always going flat out, as the focus in Q2 for these is just to get inside the top ten. Another thing is that with these short sessions, cances of drivers not getting the best out of the car due to being held up, is much greater.
Then of course, one driver might not even get through to the second session, which obviously mean he's set a slower time in Q1, and that means that for some teams, the data is from fewer grands prix.
There are other factors as well, but as I said - this is an indication....

-Renault: Alonso faster on average by 0.141 seconds.

-Ferrari: Michael Schumacher faster by 0.385 s.

-McLaren : Räikkönen faster by 0.272 s in comparison to Montoya, and 0.307 s to dela Rosa.

-Honda: Button faster by 0.295 s.

-BMW : Heidfeld faster by 0.057 s in comparison to Villeneuve, and 0.120 s to Kubica.

-Williams : Webber faster by 0.214 s.

-Toyota : Trulli and Schumacher equal. (Trulli's advantage in total over 14 Q2-sessions was 0.037s)

-Red Bull : Coulthard faster by 0.220 s (in comparison to Klien)

Roughly as expected I would say.

Very well done to Ralf Schumacher, for having turned things around qualifying-wise, from last year between him and Trulli. There's no doubt that matching him in qualifying is no mean feat. Even if this years car perhaps have been better suited to Schumacher(?).

[pippin]

Interesting result between Alonso and Fisi, I'd have thought the difference would be much greater in Alonso's favour.

The other burning question I have is what the numbers look like in races? I'd expect the differences between teammates to be much greater then.

[MortenF1]

Yeah, the impression certainly is that Alonso is faster by more than just one and a half tenth. More like four tenths! If you take a look at the comparisons I did at the halfway mark based on Q3, you can see that it was six tenths, and that is significant, as they more or less always stop right after one another, ie one lap difference.

I would say that four-five tenths between Alonso and Fisichella is more representative.

[Leyser]

I think Q3 (while taking into account the fuel discrepancy at 0.1s per lap on the shorter tracks) would be more reflective. Alonso often does not push hard in Q2 and Massa is usually closer, because when given a few laps to do his best he is not so far off - the gap is huge because MS is simply much more consistent and his one attempt is far more likely to be better than FM's (though FM's is still good enough to get him into Q3, thus the gap remains).

[conkeso]

I agree with the comment above, more often than not, top drivers don't perform 100% in Q2 as it's not needed for them.
A light-fuel Q3 would be the best option, too bad it's not happening

[Wout]

Just for fun, Doornbos has been about 0,3 seconds faster on average than Coulthard in the last three qualy's

[MortenF1]

I agree that once both drivers get to Q3, then their results there will be more representative as long as their fuel levels are similar.
It could be interesting to do the average qualifying differentials from Q3 over the entire season (I did them at the halway mark), and also work out the average difference in the timing of their first stop.
(For instance Alonso has been 0.55 seconds faster than Fisichella on average, and has stopped 1.6 laps later on average.)

About Doornbos v DC - that's a too thin basis for a good comparison, just three races. In addition, DC's head have been less into it, it seems.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by race addicted
Yeah, the impression certainly is that Alonso is faster by more than just one and a half tenth.

Pretty often the gap has been just a couple tenths which puts Alonso in second row and Fisichella in 3rd or 4th row... it's been like that most of the season ... Alonso driving just a bit faster and using all opportunities in races ... Fisichella just a bit slower and cruising there among other cars

[HoldenRT]

I think the comment about Q3 is accurate but only for Ferrari and Renault. Maybe, on some weekends, Toyota, Honda or McLaren are in the same boat. But generally it's only Ferrari and Renault that are guarenteed a Q3 spot.

All the other teams, they don't know for sure that they will make Q3 and have to push hard to make sure. Teams like Williams, Redbull, and the Honda's, BMW etc. Seems Q2 is the best comparison.

Good work race addicted, for taking the time to do this.

[Ancient God]

Interesting numbers, thanks RA. Just one more thing to note about Q2, pretty often first try is not fast enough for other teammate, so he uses another new set of tyres in order to reach top10, and due to increased grip records faster time. So in effect the faster driver in Q2 can end up with slower laptime.

[Menace]

Good work RA! Now if anyone can be bothered to compare the Q3 times of the teammates adjusted with their pit-stops.

[Ancient God]

These are the head to head results according to TS

Renault: Alonso-Fisichella 13-5.

McLaren: Räikkönen-de la Rosa 8-0, Räikkönen-Montoya 7-3.

Ferrari: Schumacher-Massa 14-4.

Toyota: Schumacher-Trulli 11-7.

Williams: Webber-Rosberg 12-6.

Honda: Barrichello-Button 9-9.

Red Bull: Doornbos-Coulthard 2-1, Coulthard-Klien 9-6.

BMW Sauber: Heidfeld-Kubica 5-1, Villeneuve-Heidfeld 7-5.

Spyker: Albers-Monteiro 13-5.

Toro Rosso: Liuzzi-Speed 12-6.

Super Aguri: Sato-Yamamoto 6-1, Sato-Montagny 6-1, Sato-Ide 4-0


To Pedro have any hope of landing the second McLaren seat, I think he should had been able to beat KR at least few times towars the latter part of the season. Actually I'm a little bit surprised that he didn't manage to do it even once...

[Menace]

Thats about how I remember it. Big surprise being JV-Heid and Kubica-Heid!




Such a shame BMW would not run JV till the end of the season.

[Arrow]

Alonso has had two grid position penalties and was double fueled at Sepang so Fisi has only beaten him legit twice.
Trulli has also had problems in about 3 sessions.

Why was it a shame they didnt run JV to the end of the season? Kubica has been quicker than nick in races.

[Webbo]

Originally posted by race addicted


Roughly as expected I would say, apart from Webber. His raw-speed advantage over Rosberg seems to be three tenths (which was what Williams insiders said their impression was from pre-season testing, according to AMuS), and that was what he had on Rosberg up to China, where things went backwards for him, and Rosberg outqualified him by one second both there and in Japan.

Mark was 1 sec quicker then Rosberg in q2 in China, not the other way around..

[MortenF1]

Thanks, Webbo. Fixed now, which resulted in a more expected differential between Webber and Rosberg.

I've also done the differentials between the Toro Rosso- and Spyker MF1 drivers, based on Q1- and 2.

-Toro Rosso: Liuzzi faster on average by 0.351 s

-Spyker MF1: Albers faster by 0.288 s

[abc]

What about WDQC ?

Points for those who passed through Q2, 10 pts for quickest driver in Q3, 1 pts for 10th place.
Only times achieved on the track matter, no penalties for engine change or impeding are included
(for example FA is fifth in Monza , MSC is first in Monaco ).

Here is the countdown:

19. Robert Doornbos - Red Bull Racing: 1 pts.
best place: 10th - China
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

18. David Coulthard - Red Bull Racing: 4 pts.
best place: 9th - Monaco
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

17. Christian Klien - Red Bull Racing: 5 pts.
best place: 8th - Bahrain
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

16. Jack Villeneuve - BMW Sauber: 11 pts.
best place: 6th - USA
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

15. Robert Kubica - BMW Sauber: 11 pts.
best place: 7th - Monza
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

[Fausta]

Originally posted by Arrow
Alonso has had two grid position penalties and was double fueled at Sepang so Fisi has only beaten him legit twice.
Trulli has also had problems in about 3 sessions.

Why was it a shame they didnt run JV to the end of the season? Kubica has been quicker than nick in races.

It is obvious the car has improved greatly and it is a shame JV didn't have a chance to ride out the year with the team. Very unprofessional on BMW's part.

[Wout]

Originally posted by race addicted
I agree that once both drivers get to Q3, then their results there will be more representative as long as their fuel levels are similar.
It could be interesting to do the average qualifying differentials from Q3 over the entire season (I did them at the halway mark), and also work out the average difference in the timing of their first stop.
(For instance Alonso has been 0.55 seconds faster than Fisichella on average, and has stopped 1.6 laps later on average.)

About Doornbos v DC - that's a too thin basis for a good comparison, just three races. In addition, DC's head have been less into it, it seems.

I wasn't very serious with that comparison. But still, one can say that Doornbos is doing a pretty good job these last 3 races. I really hope Speed goes off to ChampCars so Doornbos can drive for Torro Rosso.

[abc]

WDQC - part two

14. Nico Rosberg - Williams F1: 17 pts.
best place: 3rd - Malaysia
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,1

13. Pedro de la Rosa - McLaren Mercedes: 18 pts.
best place: 5th - Hungary
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

12. Nick Heidfeld - BMW Sauber: 29 pts.
best place: 3rd - Monza
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,1

11. Mark Webber - Williams F1: 30 pts.
best place: 3rd - Monaco
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,1

10. Juan Pablo Montoya - McLaren Mercedes: 35 pts.
best place: 5th - Bahrain, Australia
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Arrow
Why was it a shame they didnt run JV to the end of the season?

Maybe because a world champion could have driven just as fast as an unkown rookie? Good that Jacques is finally out, he wasnt getting any worthy results lately.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by abc


18. David Coulthard - Red Bull Racing: 4 pts.
best place:]9th - Monaco
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,0

DC's best grid position has been seventh, in Monaco, not ninth.

Originally posted by Wout

I really hope Speed goes off to ChampCars so Doornbos can drive for Torro Rosso.

Totally agree, even if Speed has done better in the second half, and at times even very well.

[MortenF1]

Results based on Q3-

-Renault: Alonso faster on average by 0.495 s, and has on average stopped half a lap earlier.

-Ferrari: Michael Schumacher faster by 0.426 s, and has stopped 0.7 laps later.

-McLaren: Räikkönen v JPM - Räikkönen faster by 0.440 s, and has stopped 0.4 laps earlier.
.............. Räikkönen v dela Rosa - Räikkönen faster by 0.447 s. Their average first stint has for both been 16.25 laps.

-Toyota: Ralf Schumacher faster by 0.115 s, and has stopped 2.25 laps earlier.

-Honda: Button faster by 0.266 s, and has stopped one lap earlier.

[abc]

Originally posted by race addicted


DC's best grid position has been seventh, in Monaco, not ninth.




Totally agree, even if Speed has done better in the second half, and at times even very well.

As I mentioned I consider times achieved on the track, so I have MSC and Fisi ahead of DC in MOnaco

[MortenF1]

oh.

But I'm not really sure if your format tells us anything really. No pun intended.

[abc]

WDQC - part three

9. Jarno Trulli - Toyota: 45 pts.
best place: 3rd - Brasil
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,1

8. Ralf Schumacher - Toyota: 54 pts.
best place: 3rd - Japan
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,1

7. Rubens Barrichello - Honda: 76 pts.
best place: 3rd - Imola, Hungary, China
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 0,0,3

6. Jenson Button - Honda: 85 pts.
best place: 1st - Australia
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 1,2,1

5. Giancarlo Fisichella - Renault: 99 pts.
best place: 1st - Malaysia
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 1,4,1

[giddyup409]

Originally posted by race addicted
Totally agree, even if Speed has done better in the second half, and at times even very well.

why then? in the 2nd half of speed's rookie season he just got a hang of beating liuzzi. with a little bit more competitive car next year, i'm looking forward to seeing him improve and threaten others in the midfield pack. if doornboss is getting better of dc, then you should be hoping dc retires and making room for doornboss, no?

[abc]

Originally posted by race addicted
oh.

But I'm not really sure if your format tells us anything really. No pun intended.

Why?
I think it tells the 2006 quali story best . Its good for teammates comparison and cars performance comparison.
Lets be honest Q2 times are for nothing, Q3 times can be used only if both drivers made the cut, so if one driver in one session is much better and he is the only one in Q3, results of Q3 dont reflect it.
And if your car have problem, you can loose 3 sec. or 5 places in Q3 and those 3 sec. difference in one session influences results very badly.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by abc


Why?
I think it tells the 2006 quali story best . Its good for teammates comparison and cars performance comparison.
Lets be honest Q2 times are for nothing, Q3 times can be used only if both drivers made the cut, so if one driver in one session is much better and he is the only one in Q3, results of Q3 dont reflect it.

Because it doesn't tell us anything about the raw speed of the different drivers. As with the head-to-head statistics, it fails to show the speed difference between two drivers. For instance, you could be outqualified 18-0, but still be just a tenth slower on average.
But with your numbers, or the head-to-head one, that wouldn't show.

Originally posted by giddyup409


why then? in the 2nd half of speed's rookie season he just got a hang of beating liuzzi. with a little bit more competitive car next year, i'm looking forward to seeing him improve and threaten others in the midfield pack. if doornboss is getting better of dc, then you should be hoping dc retires and making room for doornboss, no?

No no, Speed has not got the "hang of beating Liuzzi". He's not at all close to that, but he has improved, something he really needed to, 'cause he didn't look very good at first.

We have had Doornbos v DC for three weekends, which is nowhere near sufficient enough to draw any conclusions from. I suspect that DC's head isn't really in it anymore this season (which doesn't really reflect well on him, but it will show in his laptimes), so even if Doornbos has managed to look quicker in qualifying, I do not at all think he's the quicker of the two.

Btw, it wouldn't make a difference what I hope for; DC and Webber are Red Bull's chosen drivers for 2007.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by abc



And if your car have problem, you can loose 3 sec. or 5 places in Q3 and those 3 sec. difference in one session influences results very badly.

I've obviously not taken such freak occurences into account.

[abc]

Originally posted by race addicted


I've obviously not taken such freak occurences into account.

BTW Race Addicted
I looked up results of Renault drivers in Q3 from Fisis point of view (rounded to tenths)
Bahrain 1,8 sec.
Malaysia -1,9 sec.
Australia -0,2 sec.
Barcelona 0,1 Sec.
Monaco 0,4 sec.
Silverstone 0,6 sec.
Canada 0,3 sec.
USA -0,5 sec.
France 0,5 sec.
Hockenhein -0,4 sec.
Turkey 0,3 sec.
Monza 1,4 sec.
China 0,6 sec.
Japan 0,2 sec.
Brasil 0 sec.

And Fisi is 0,21 sec. behind on average , you can exclude Bahrain and Malaysia (problems involved) nad result will be similar, so how is it possible that you have 0,6 sec. difference?, no pun intended.

[abc]

WDQC - part four

4. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren Mercedes: 101 pts.
best place: 1st - Hockenheim, Hungary, Monza
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 3,2,1

3. Felipe Massa - Ferrari: 111 pts.
best place: 1st - Turkey, Japan, Brasil
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 3,4,2

2. Fernando Alonso - Renault: 128 pts.
best place: 1st - Nurburgring, Barcelona, Silverstone, Canada, China
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 5,1,3

1. Michael Schumacher - Ferrari: 130 pts.
best place: 1st - Bahrain, Imola, Monaco, USA, France
statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd best times: 5,5,2

I hope that at least someone was interested in...

[Stephan]

Exactly ABC, how RA gets the 0,6 difference is beyond me. And the statement that the difference over the whole season is not representative, but should be three tenths more, is even more confusing...

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by abc


And Fisi is 0,21 sec. behind on average , you can exclude Bahrain and Malaysia (problems involved) nad result will be similar, so how is it possible that you have 0,6 sec. difference?, no pun intended.

I did not include Malaysia, but I did include Bahrain as Fisichella's only problem was that he didn't find the balance on fresh tires and fuel similar to what it had been preceeding Q3.
What I have done wrong however, is not to correct Fisichella's laptime after his penalty in Monaco. But that is now fixed.

Try again.

Originally posted by Stephan
Exactly ABC, how RA gets the 0,6 difference is beyond me. And the statement that the difference over the whole season is not representative, but should be three tenths more, is even more confusing...

Because everybody knows that the true difference in raw speed between Alonso and Fisichella isn't just 0.14 seconds! As I said myself, not always will the drivers push to 100% in Q2, but in the third session they definately have to.

The general perception is that Fisichella is around four tenths slower than Alonso.

[abc]

Originally posted by race addicted


I did not include Malaysia, but I did include Bahrain as Fisichella's only problem was that he didn't find the balance on fresh tires and fuel similar to what it had been preceeding Q3.
What I have done wrong however, is not to correct Fisichella's laptime after his penalty in Monaco. But that is now fixed.

Try again.

Excluding only Malaysia, the difference is 0,34 sec.
And Fisi had engine problem in Bahrain, so 100% Bahrain should be excluded as well, so 0,21 sec. is correct.
BTW Monza should be excluded as well as there was totally different strategy in play but thats another story

Try again

[MortenF1]

Oh fantastic. You're just grumpy because I questioned what answers your comparisons really gave us.

Re-read my post, and you'll see that I've also given the average difference in the length of the first stint. But of course I could've made a more fine-masked system, but it was enough time-consuming as it was.

Now please don't take any frustrations about Fisichella's speed deficit to Alonso out on me.

One more thing; as I don't have the gift enabling me to see into the future, I have not included the results from Brazil, as the race is yet to start, hence I've no idea about the fuel loads.

[abc]

Originally posted by race addicted
Oh fantastic. You're just grumpy because I questioned what answers your comparisons really gave us.

Re-read my post, and you'll see that I've also given the average difference in the length of the first stint. But of course I could've made a more fine-masked system, but it was enough time-consuming as it was.

Now please don't take any frustrations about Fisichella's speed deficit to Alonso out on me.

One more thing; as I don't have the gift enabling me to see into the future, I have not included the results from Brazil, as the race is yet to start, hence I've no idea about the fuel loads.

Your data are wrong (quite considerably), no need for personal attacks

[MortenF1]

Where are the "personal attacks?"
That I called you grumpy??

Talk about being touchy.

[Blaka Da Uglav]

Originally posted by abc


BTW Race Addicted
I looked up results of Renault drivers in Q3 from Fisis point of view (rounded to tenths)
Bahrain 1,8 sec.
Malaysia -1,9 sec.
Australia -0,2 sec.
Barcelona 0,1 Sec.
Monaco 0,4 sec.
Silverstone 0,6 sec.
Canada 0,3 sec.
USA -0,5 sec.
France 0,5 sec.
Hockenhein -0,4 sec.
Turkey 0,3 sec.
Monza 1,4 sec.
China 0,6 sec.
Japan 0,2 sec.
Brasil 0 sec.

And Fisi is 0,21 sec. behind on average , you can exclude Bahrain and Malaysia (problems involved) nad result will be similar, so how is it possible that you have 0,6 sec. difference?

Monza is very doubtfull to say the least. Remember Alonsos misfortune with tyre explosion and damaged rear end not to mention the extra fuel weight, due to less laps driven.

I more or less agree with RA. The difference in Q speed is much more in FA favour. So is the race speed...

[valachus]

I guess the best basis for comparison is the race fastest lap difference - of course, counting only the races where both drivers finished. Any source for this kind of data?

[MortenF1]

No, not really, or atleast certainly not always. You're dependant on running in the right group, and get a handful of laps in free air for that to be representative. By running in the right group, I mean that if you have a top three car, but for some reason fall back and into the midfield, you can not be expected to post the same laptimes as your team-mate further up the road, where the car should be.
In addition, a one-stopping car will also never be expected to post the same fastest laptime as one two-stopping.

To complete the picture from qualifying, it'd perhaps be better to work out how many seconds on average Fisichella finished behind Alonso at the flag, Massa behind Schumacher, Barrichello behind Button and so forth.
Obviously that would require a good dive into each race, to weed out any hick-ups such as a slow pitstop etc.