29 replies to this topic

[HistoricMustang]

Perhaps the "search" was not entered correctly but no thread record appeared here at TNF.

Interested in period photographs and why "Gurney" appears on the valve covers! There must be a story here.

Henry

http://www.holmanmoo...can_am_gal.html

[Bob Riebe]

They are using Gurney Weslake heads, because at that time, they were the best small block Ford heads in existance, and they still are probably as good as any.

[RA Historian]

There is a mystique out there about the Honker that is not warranted. The car was a load of crap. It only ran a couple times in 1967 and Mario Andretti has been quoted often about his opinion of the car.

For some reason it seems to fascinate certain writers. It was at the Road America Historics several years ago and the Milwaukee paper sent a female reporter to cover the event as their usual motorsports writer, Dave Kallman, was somewhere else. She spent some time trying to develop a hook for her story and decided to write about the Honker. She asked me my opinion, and I told her that the car was essentially no good and did absolutely zero in the Can Am. Her reply was, paraphrased here, "But Paul Newman drove it!" I explained to her that Paul did not race it, but his name was on the car strictly as a sponsor. I pointed out many other cars that were present all with a history that were eminently more worthy of coverage than the Honker.

You know what the entire story in the Milwaukee Journal was about the next day.........

Not only that , but it seems to be featured inordinately in various vintage racing publications.

Oh well....

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
They are using Gurney Weslake heads, because at that time, they were the best small block Ford heads in existance, and they still are probably as good as any.

You are very correct, they are the best small block heads still.............

[chuckbrandt]

It's not an esthetically un-appealing car. I wish I could see the frame and suspension, some bits I've read said they were unconventional. Is that true?

Ford was REALLY struggling during the early years of Can Am. They threw their money at a lot of different projects none of which were very well developed. I think they were trying to run a small block in what was becoming a big block chevy dominated series.

Didn't Mario say something to the effect of "Paul, why don't I put my name on the front and you drive it". ? Funny guy that Mario

Chuck

[Roger Clark]

The Honker was built for H&M by Alan Mann Racing, designed, I think, by Len Bailey. It was originally known as Project 77, the Honker name was only adopted when delivered to the States. Autosport described the car in July 1967.

It said: "The chassis is shaped like a punt, its sides incorporating the fuel tanks with two steel boxed section bulkheads on which to hang the suspensions. Aircraft L72 18 and 20 gauge alloy sheet is both riveted and glued with all hollow cavities filled with structural styrofoam, a substance which sets completely hard and is impervious to both petrol and water, The torsional stiffness is immense (6000 lbs ft per degree) with a constant amount of deflection over the entire length of the chassis."

The front suspension used cantilever to wishbones with inboard springs. This was said to allow plenty of room for the brakes which were well in board of the wheels - like a Cooper-Maserati, I think.

The weight was said to be very low, at about 1500 lbs, compared with 1725 lbs of a Lola T70.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The Honker was built for H&M by Alan Mann Racing,

Yes. You can note many similarities between the Honker and the "Alan Mann Open Sports Ford" (whew!) that ran in a couple Can Am races the end of 1969.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by chuckbrandt

Ford was REALLY struggling during the early years of Can Am. They threw their money at a lot of different projects none of which were very well developed.
Chuck

Absolutely right. As I recall, they had a number of projects they were supporting, but in each case the resources and capital to make it work were not fully forthcoming. We have the Honker project, by Holman & Moody. Then there was the Ford G7A, which, correct me if I am wrong, was essentially a Mk. IV with the roof cut off. Then there was the Carroll Shelby effort, first a Ford engined Lola T-70, then in 1968 a McLaren M6B with an aluminum Ford engine. In 1969 there was the Holman & Moody 429er project, an ex-Shelby M6B with a huge big block aluminum Ford V-8. The Alan Mann Open Sports Ford in 1969. But in each case it seems that there simply was no follow-up and the projects withered.

Simultaneously with these efforts was Dan Gurney and his All American Racers. But Dan went on his own tangent with the Eagle-Weslake heads, etc. Put a small block V-8 with these heads in a Lola T-70 and won Bridgehampton Can Am in 1966. But it went downhill from there. Dan later ran Fords in another T-70 in 1967, then sporadically in a Lola T-160 and the "McLeagle" in 1968 and 1969 before throwing in the towel and putting big block Chevy in the chassis.

[Erik330]

G7A was a Mark II with the roof cut off.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Erik330
G7A was a Mark II with the roof cut off.

I thought the X-1 of 1965 was based on the Mark II, but the G-7A had the Mark Iv's honeycomb chassis.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I thought the X-1 of 1965 was based on the Mark II, but the G-7A had the Mark Iv's honeycomb chassis.

That's the way I remember it, Roger.

[Bob Riebe]

The G7A was built off of the Mk IV, along with the Calliope engine for it.
Sadly as with all Ford Can-Am projects, no full effort.

Does anyone know what transpired between Ford and Gurney that he did not get the Boss engine.

He used his three-valve head also but had got rid of all his tall deck alloy engines so the largest he could take the engines out to was 344 cubes. Not enough.

[Erik330]

You guys are right. Faulty memory on my part. I saw the thing run, too. Here's an interesting thread: http://www.clubcobra.com/t55954.html

[Peter Darley]

I was at Goodwood when the Alan Mann car was shaken down by Frank Gardner. It was in unpainted aluminium at the time.

[Pedro 917]

The Honker II was at the FoS in 2005:

[Pedro 917]

and here's a picture of the Honker in 1967, Mario Andretti at the wheel:


Copyright Ford

[eldougo]

Originally posted by Pedro 917

I just love the paint colour on this car,i would hazzard a guess that there has never been another race car with that amazing paint job.

http://img135.images...s2005yl5.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [/B]

[jj2728]

Funny thing I just noticed about the colour photos, and maybe it's a bit too early in the a.m. for me, but why the headlights? I don't recall it running in that configuration.

[chuckbrandt]

Good point about the headlights. I don't know for sure. There are a half dozen pictures of the car in the Holman-Moody book and they all show headlight buckets with no headlights (which is what it had at Road America this summer).

Some interstesting quotes from the HM book. "Early 1967, the Honker arrives in Charlotte from Alan Mann's shop in England. The car was constructed around the rule that allowed a lower curb weight if a smaller displacment engine was used instead of a big block."

Also it was called Honker II in honor of John Holman who's nick name was Honker from his early days as a truck driver for Ford's racing teams.

The color of the car was called "Passino Purple" which was a color stirred up by George Barris for Fireball Robert's NASCAR car.

I still wish I could find some front suspension pictures. The rear looks pretty GT-40 like.

Chuck

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by chuckbrandt


I still wish I could find some front suspension pictures. The rear looks pretty GT-40 like.

From Autosport July 28 1967.

[chuckbrandt]

Very interesting. Thanks Roger!

CDB

[Seppi_0_917PA]

Originally posted by jj2728
Funny thing I just noticed about the colour photos, and maybe it's a bit too early in the a.m. for me, but why the headlights? I don't recall it running in that configuration.

For a long time, I too was puzzled by the headlight buckets on the Honker II. That was until I saw the similarity with the Ford P68. I don't know which came first but the front section for both cars seemed to have come out the same mold:



Edit - I looked it up: Honker II was 1967 and the P68s were 1968.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by jj2728
Funny thing I just noticed about the colour photos, and maybe it's a bit too early in the a.m. for me, but why the headlights? I don't recall it running in that configuration.

The car was built in 1967 and that was the year that the SCCA changed the Can Am rules concerning head lights. Previously, cars had to have them. Now they did not. You will notice that the 1967 McLaren M6A and the Lola T-73B cars did not have any at all, while others, such as the Chaparral 2G, had headlight covers but no headlights underneath. I guess it all depended upon when the bodywork was done and when the rule change got to them. I would imagine that the Honker was in that in-between stage. The body was built with headlight buckets, but when the car was completed there was no need to finish installing headlights.

Incidentally, a similar shade of metallic violet was used by Roy Kumnick in his various cars raced out of Tero Corvette in Illinois in the early 1960s. The Nickey cars also used metallic violet but the shade varied.

[Pedro 917]

The Ford F3L was also built by Alan Mann following Len Bailey's design. It was based on the Honker II.

[Tom Glowacki]

The Honker II color was the same as used on Fireball Roberts' H-M stock cars and was called "Passino Purpole" after Jacques Passino who ran the Ford performance program.

[ace woodington]

I was working at Allan Mann's in 1969. I seem to remember that a Honker Mark ?? was being built then. It was a Len Bailey design. Monocoque chassis, aluminium boby work by Morris Gomme and his merry men!! When the engine arrived it didn't fit or it did but there was no room for the exhausts!!

[HistoricMustang]

Thanks to all for the information.

Did Ford simply relax after the success of LeMans?

The TNF members never cease to amaze me!

Henry

[Hugewally]

Both cars at the Amelia Island Concours back in March...

[RA Historian]

I remember Mario driving the 429er at the 1969 Road America Can Am. Got to turn five on the pace lap before the power snapped the half shaft(s). Never made the start!

[eldougo]

"Passino Purple" ..... that clour thanks for the TNF,er who replied.

Regarding the headlights surley they where thinking of going to Le Mans or some long sport car race in the states and in those days they were required.We had CAMS out here in Australia that still made sports cars carry a spare tyre into the early 70's.