82 replies to this topic

[Niky]

Hi to all! Any idea how much F1 is worth it today? How is that calculated? Also, any idea on F1 teams' budget for this season? I have read some numbers like US$600 million for Mclaren, but no clue where that figure is coming from... And, yes, still impressed with the number$$$ Mr. Raikkonen will be doing in 2007!!!

Thanks, Niky

[schead]

Last year, Business F1 magazine printed an estimate of F1 team budgets.

McLaren: $400m
Toyota: $393m
Honda: $382m
BMW: $378m
Ferrari: $329m
Renault: $300m
Red Bull: $201m
Williams: $134m
Super Aguri: $95m
Midland: $75m
Toro Rosso: $66m

Mind you, I am not sure how much you can trust Business F1 magazine. They have been sued by half of the paddock for libel in the past. The most amusing one was Willi Weber who recieved 180,000 dollars for libel after they alleged that he had his hands in prostitution and drug running. He does look like a pimp though

[Petra L'ead]

Originally posted by schead
Last year, Business F1 magazine printed an estimate of F1 team budgets.

McLaren: $400m
Toyota: $393m
Honda: $382m
BMW: $378m
Ferrari: $329m
Renault: $300m
Red Bull: $201m
Williams: $134m
Super Aguri: $95m
Midland: $75m
Toro Rosso: $66m

Are things really that bad at Williams? Last year they did not have a title sponsor so maybe that has something to do with it, but I had not thought they were *so* far behind on budget. If those figures are right it would look like there is no way back for them.

Consider that while Torro Rosso and Super Aguri have small budgets they don't design their own cars, so those are figures just cover operating costs.

If those figures are correct it would mean that Williams have the smallest budget (by a mile) of any team that designs it's own chassis apart from Spyker.

I can't believe that can be right?

[Visionz]

I`d like to know the budgets for this year (2007)...
last years estimates have been available for a long time now...

[xflow7]

I'm fairly sure I've seen comments in the past from a couple of top team principals to the effect that the budget numbers often tossed around for their teams are significantly inflated (and, no, I cannot provide a link so no warranties expressed or implied as to the accuracy of this, just stating what I recall).

[Owen]

Originally posted by Niky
Hi to all! Any idea how much F1 is worth it today? How is that calculated? Also, any idea on F1 teams' budget for this season? I have read some numbers like US$600 million for Mclaren, but no clue where that figure is coming from... And, yes, still impressed with the number$$$ Mr. Raikkonen will be doing in 2007!!!

Thanks, Niky

Alonso is better paid than Raikkonen, allegedly.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Petra L'ead


Are things really that bad at Williams? Last year they did not have a title sponsor so maybe that has something to do with it, but I had not thought they were *so* far behind on budget. If those figures are right it would look like there is no way back for them.

Consider that while Torro Rosso and Super Aguri have small budgets they don't design their own cars, so those are figures just cover operating costs.

If those figures are correct it would mean that Williams have the smallest budget (by a mile) of any team that designs it's own chassis apart from Spyker.

I can't believe that can be right?

Well those are last year, so Aguri did some quite serious dev and Toro Rosso do have to design the rear end of their car.

[Amrl]

Originally posted by Owen
Alonso is better paid than Raikkonen, allegedly.

I've seen this claimed a few times yet nobody posting it provides their source?

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Amrl

I've seen this claimed a few times yet nobody posting it provides their source?

There isn't really any sources, as the contracts are classified and I don't know if these guys pay any taxes to countries, where the income taxes are public info.

I doubt Alonso earns more than KR, as Raikkonen had all the teams making offers, but Alonso missed Ferrari. Also, McLaren hasn't in the past allowed private sponsorship deals to it's drivers, when on the other hand Ferrari has. Those deals can easily double the driver's actual salary.

[schead]

Apparently, F1 Racing claimed Alonso is to get 35 million dollars, whilst Kimi is on a million a week, (52 million dollars). I have never seen any claims that Fernando is getting more than Kimi. He is getting considerably more than he did at Renault though.

[Niky]

Actually, I was reading that Alonso's "payroll" at Renault was about US$7.2 million per season, and Ron Dennis claimed, that the Spaniard is not moving because of money, since he will get less at McLaren than he did at Renault...

And as far as Kimi goes, this was published on the media back on December:

"With the retirement of Michael Schumacher, his replacement at Ferrari has inherited the envious mantle as formula one's highest earner.

Kimi Raikkonen, to make his test debut for the Italian squad in January, will in 2007 earn about a million US dollars per week, according to the Swiss daily newspaper 'Blick'.

The publication said the Finn's annual income will surpass $51m.
Schumacher, on the other hand, has retired to his Swiss mansion with a personal fortune of more than an estimated $800m, while his role as Jean Todt's 'assistant' next year - and continuing sponsorship contracts - should see the German maintaining a more than $10 million annual income.

The seven time world champion's 2007 income is only marginally less than brother Ralf and Jenson Button's $16 million for driving for respectively Toyota and Honda, but more than Giancarlo Fisichella and Felipe Massa (approx. $10m).

British specialist magazine F1 Racing lists back to back world champion Fernando Alonso's 2007 wage at $35m, while rookie hotshots Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen will all make less than $2.8m each."
Source: GMM

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Petra L'ead
Are things really that bad at Williams?

Things are good if that's true. Solid budget for a private team. It could have been much worse.

[Rexx Havoc]

wouldn't the the Ferrari figure be smaller than it appears... as they need to develop both the engine and chassis
in difference to Mclaren that have a budget and then engines supplied to them?

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by schead
Last year, Business F1 magazine printed an estimate of F1 team budgets.

McLaren: $400m
Toyota: $393m
Honda: $382m
BMW: $378m
Ferrari: $329m
Renault: $300m
Red Bull: $201m
Williams: $134m
Super Aguri: $95m
Midland: $75m
Toro Rosso: $66m

Mind you, I am not sure how much you can trust Business F1 magazine. They have been sued by half of the paddock for libel in the past. The most amusing one was Willi Weber who recieved 180,000 dollars for libel after they alleged that he had his hands in prostitution and drug running. He does look like a pimp though

Red Bull, only £201m? clearly they spend it all on corporate hospitality then!

[Modern Lover]

Just googld for Alonso's 2007 salary and some claim he will be the biggest earner on some 20m sterling. http://www.planet-f1...1813770,00.html

Another site claims Alonso will make $40 while Kimi will earn $24.
http://www.wheels24....2050724,00.html

Regardless, I seriously doubt Kimi will make $52 and Alonso $35 as a 50% difference between a double champ and one guy with 10 or so wins does not make sense.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Niky


The publication said the Finn's annual income will surpass $51m.

Damn, Niki Lauda is going to sue his mother again...;)

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Modern Lover
Just googld for Alonso's 2007 salary and some claim he will be the biggest earner on some 20m sterling. http://www.planet-f1...1813770,00.html

Another site claims Alonso will make $40 while Kimi will earn $24.
http://www.wheels24....2050724,00.html

Regardless, I seriously doubt Kimi will make $52 and Alonso $35 as a 50% difference between a double champ and one guy with 10 or so wins does not make sense.

Then again...weren´t both contracts made in 2005? Alonso wasn´t double champ back then.

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by Spunout


Then again...weren´t both contracts made in 2005? Alonso wasn´t double champ back then.

Alonso signed for McLaren after he became 2005 champ, which would command a bigger salary than some dude that has come close twice.

[Cool Beans]

Kimi got 29 million per season at Mclaren and according reliable finnish media sources he got a 10 million raise when he moved to Ferrari. They said he is now the second best paid athlete in the world after Tiger Woods' 70 million.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Modern Lover

Alonso signed for McLaren after he became 2005 champ, which would command a bigger salary than some dude that has come close twice.

Perhaps, but they weren´t hired by the same team. Ferrari and McLaren could have different policies when it comes to driver salaries.

[Amrl]

I imagine the teams care more about championships their driver wins for them in the future than ones won for someone else in the past. The fact that Ferrari doesn't limit their drivers personal sponsorship makes it more likely that Kimi makes more, but so what? That alone doesn't mean he's any better than Fernando as a driver.

Any actual salary figures are likely to be just someones guesses.

[Owen]

Originally posted by Amrl
I imagine the teams care more about championships their driver wins for them in the future than ones won for someone else in the past. The fact that Ferrari doesn't limit their drivers personal sponsorship makes it more likely that Kimi makes more, but so what? That alone doesn't mean he's any better than Fernando as a driver.

Any actual salary figures are likely to be just someones guesses.

Yes, 'my salary is better than yours' is a pointless argument.
But it's another one for the Kimi vs Alonso brigade.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Big Block 8


There isn't really any sources, as the contracts are classified and I don't know if these guys pay any taxes to countries, where the income taxes are public info.

A little OT but this shook me up. Are there really countires where a person's income taxes are public?

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by tifosi


A little OT but this shook me up. Are there really countires where a person's income taxes are public?

Try Norway.

[Montera]

Originally posted by beancounter
Kimi got 29 million per season at Mclaren and according reliable finnish media sources he got a 10 million raise when he moved to Ferrari. They said he is now the second best paid athlete in the world after Tiger Woods' 70 million.

athlete?

[Montera]

Originally posted by Modern Lover
Just googld for Alonso's 2007 salary and some claim he will be the biggest earner on some 20m sterling. http://www.planet-f1...1813770,00.html

Another site claims Alonso will make $40 while Kimi will earn $24.
http://www.wheels24....2050724,00.html

Regardless, I seriously doubt Kimi will make $52 and Alonso $35 as a 50% difference between a double champ and one guy with 10 or so wins does not make sense.

That's what I have heard. Alonso will be the highest paid driver this season. There had been reports that Kimi would be paid the salary of the retiring Schumacher, £22, but it is not true (the guys at Ferrari are not that stupid). The Finn will get around £12m.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Montera


That's what I have heard. Alonso will be the highest paid driver this season. There had been reports that Kimi would be paid the salary of the retiring Schumacher, £22, but it is not true (the guys at Ferrari are not that stupid). The Finn will get around £12m.

Really clever that "stupid" part. With good luck people might take your (flame)bait? :

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Modern Lover
Just googld for Alonso's 2007 salary and some claim he will be the biggest earner on some 20m sterling. http://www.planet-f1...1813770,00.html

Another site claims Alonso will make $40 while Kimi will earn $24.
http://www.wheels24....2050724,00.html

Regardless, I seriously doubt Kimi will make $52 and Alonso $35 as a 50% difference between a double champ and one guy with 10 or so wins does not make sense.

The source is the Spanish paper AS, so I wouldn't take it too seriously. Their reputation isn't the best one around there, when it comes to F1.

Raikkonen simply was in much more favourable position, as every team was interested in him and also Ferrari is more accustomed to pay fortunes to it's drivers. Regards the WDCs, I don't think the team bosses currently see any meaningful difference, as far as Alonso and Raikkonen are concerned, WDCs or not. They are professionals first, fanboys as distant second, if at all.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by tifosi


A little OT but this shook me up. Are there really countires where a person's income taxes are public?

Yes, there is. I don't know which is more common, public or not public. I'd bet it's the latter though.

[jokuvaan]

Kimi can also have his own sponsors on helmet and race suit and so on.

Rumour says MS did this way same amount of money as his basic salary.

[klover]

Originally posted by Big Block 8


They are professionals first, fanboys as distant second, if at all.

I bet Jean Todt would have never hired Kimi if he had access to this BB and its wisdom. Sucker, got duped by the biggest engine breaker the world has ever known and that straight after he finally got rid of the biggest cheat of them all
Poor Jean, he never had any luck with drivers, not since the glory days with Alesi and Prost

[scottc]

Poor Jean, he never had any luck with drivers, not since the glory days with Alesi and Prost

Jean never had Prost as a driver.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Modern Lover
Just googld for Alonso's 2007 salary and some claim he will be the biggest earner on some 20m sterling. http://www.planet-f1...1813770,00.html

Another site claims Alonso will make $40 while Kimi will earn $24.
http://www.wheels24....2050724,00.html

Regardless, I seriously doubt Kimi will make $52 and Alonso $35 as a 50% difference between a double champ and one guy with 10 or so wins does not make sense.

Their salaries might heavily depend on the results so at this stage it might be impossible to know who will more.

In their estimations spanish sources of course except Alonso to get the champion's salary and in some finnish estimation that could be Kimi.

I do except Kimi to got a more wealthy contract, because he was signed before Alonso. And not only that, but Alonso came from Renault system who were not willing to compete into huge sums.

[armchair expert]

Originally posted by Montera


athlete?

I don't consider golf a sport either.;)

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
wouldn't the the Ferrari figure be smaller than it appears... as they need to develop both the engine and chassis
in difference to Mclaren that have a budget and then engines supplied to them?

back on topic bump...

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
wouldn't the the Ferrari figure be smaller than it appears... as they need to develop both the engine and chassis
in difference to Mclaren that have a budget and then engines supplied to them?

How is Ferrari any different than Toyota, BMW, Renault, Honda in this respect?

Not sure about the Mac figures. I am guessing that it represents chassis+engine. Mercedes are a major McLaren shareholder not merely an engine supplier. If the $400M is just for the chassis.... good gawd.

[Rexx Havoc]

Originally posted by AyePirate


How is Ferrari any different than Toyota, BMW, Renault, Honda in this respect?

Not sure about the Mac figures. I am guessing that it represents chassis+engine. Mercedes are a major McLaren shareholder not merely an engine supplier. If the $400M is just for the chassis.... good gawd.

you got me... I was verbalizing last years thoughts when bmw, honda, mercedes were suppliers and not team owners

[Dudley]

Generally the published budgets contain the estimate of the engine manufacturers input too so it shouldn't make a difference.

[inaki]

When Alonso signed with McLaren, the "estimated consensus" ( meaning more or less the average I calculated taking data of several media) was that the contract was 96 mill Euro for 3 years, that makes something around 40 mill US$ per season.

He was coming from Renault having been paid 6-7 mill US$ in 2005 and 11 mill US$ 2006. Price / performance he was the best deal available in the paddock dollar-per-dollar, by far. Many drivers had a bigger salary than him, not only Schumacher or Kimi, Button, Montoya before leaving not to mention Trulli or Ralf. We know that Renault does not have big pockets compared with Mc, Ferrari or Toyota.

Answering some of the previous posts, it's a joke to consider that Alonso has not improved his salary after 2 WDCs signing with McLaren. Having said that, I also think that money was not the primary factor & consideration for him to change teams. Renault was not clear about his long-term commitment and resources with F1 at that moment they were negotiating, even Carlos Ghosn as CEO wanted to impose a very thrifty policy joining the Renault board coming from reshaping Nissan. The funniest thing was that after Alonso left the team, Flavio was considering hiring Kimi or Michael and declaring that money was not a problem.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by inaki
When Alonso signed with McLaren, the "estimated consensus" ( meaning more or less the average I calculated taking data of several media) was that the contract was 96 mill Euro for 3 years, that makes something around 40 mill US$ per season.

He was coming from Renault having been paid 6-7 mill US$ in 2005 and 11 mill US$ 2006. Price / performance he was the best deal available in the paddock dollar-per-dollar, by far. Many drivers had a bigger salary than him, not only Schumacher or Kimi, Button, Montoya before leaving not to mention Trulli or Ralf. We know that Renault does not have big pockets compared with Mc, Ferrari or Toyota.

Answering some of the previous posts, it's a joke to consider that Alonso has not improved his salary after 2 WDCs signing with McLaren. Having said that, I also think that money was not the primary factor & consideration for him to change teams. Renault was not clear about his long-term commitment and resources with F1 at that moment they were negotiating, even Carlos Ghosn as CEO wanted to impose a very thrifty policy joining the Renault board coming from reshaping Nissan. The funniest thing was that after Alonso left the team, Flavio was considering hiring Kimi or Michael and declaring that money was not a problem.

As I recall, Flavio said getting Kimi was the "first priority". That was before he knew Kimi already had binding contract with Ferrari, of course.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
wouldn't the the Ferrari figure be smaller than it appears... as they need to develop both the engine and chassis
in difference to Mclaren that have a budget and then engines supplied to them?

Yep I've been stating this for a few years now. People always seem to think Ferrari have the biggest budget. Sure they have a large budget but its split between chassis and engine, while McLaren spend all their sponsorship money on the chassis and get the engines supplied to them for free so relatively speaking McLaren should be in fact spending more on their chassis than Ferrari.

At least these figures take into account the amount of money the engine manufacturers put in as well, before budget estimates just used to take into account the amount of money the team generated from sponsorship (therefore Ferrari would be at the top) and the budgets of the engine manufacturers were always hard to estimate so they weren't really included.

[benn5325]

07 Budgets acording to BusinessF1

Mclaren 493.1 mil
Honda 420.9
Ferrari 401.25
Toyota 392.7
BMW 388.4
Renault 312.7
Red Bull 283.6
Williams 192.85
Super Aguri 91.5
Toro Rosso 90
Spyker 71.95

[kNt]

Differences from the last speculations:

	  2007	2006	delta	%

Williams	192.85	134	58.85	43.91791045

Red Bull 	283.6	201	82.6	41.09452736

Toro Rosso	90	66	24	36.36363636

Mclaren 	493	400	93	23.25

Ferrari		   401.25	 329	72.25	21.96048632

Honda 			 420.9	 382	38.9	10.18324607

Renault		 312.7	 300	12.7	4.233333333

BMW			388.4	378	10.4	2.751322751

Toyota 			392.7	393	-0.3	-0.076335878

Super Aguri 	91.5	95	-3.5	-3.684210526

Spyker 		 71.95	75	-3.05	-4.066666667

Nice to see Williams doing reasonably well, while Spyker seems to go nowehre.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by benn5325
07 Budgets acording to BusinessF1

Mclaren 493.1 mil
Honda 420.9
Ferrari 401.25
Toyota 392.7
BMW 388.4
Renault 312.7
Red Bull 283.6
Williams 192.85
Super Aguri 91.5
Toro Rosso 90
Spyker 71.95

euros or dollars?

[Sakae]

Originally posted by benn5325
07 Budgets acording to BusinessF1

Mclaren 493.1 mil
Honda 420.9
Ferrari 401.25
Toyota 392.7
BMW 388.4
Renault 312.7
Red Bull 283.6
Williams 192.85
Super Aguri 91.5
Toro Rosso 90
Spyker 71.95

Is motor supplier's budget included in McLaren's figure? I am having difficulty to believe any of it, because Toyota' position in this table is hard to explain, when it is being compared with some other estimates of the past that were published about a year ago. I am not sure what the last four placements expect.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by benn5325
07 Budgets acording to BusinessF1

Mclaren 493.1 mil
Honda 420.9
Ferrari 401.25
Toyota 392.7
BMW 388.4
Renault 312.7
Red Bull 283.6
Williams 192.85
Super Aguri 91.5
Toro Rosso 90
Spyker 71.95

I think we can deduce from this list that Renault get good value from their spend, and that Honda should be doing better. McLaren's budget presumably reflects their massive and overt investment in technology in recent years. Significantly, BMW are right up there now amongst the biggest spenders, and this should manifest itself in improved results, although we all know it doesn't always work like that.

[benn5325]

Originally posted by MiPe
Is motor supplier's budget included in McLaren's figure? I am having difficulty to believe any of it, because Toyota' position in this table is hard to explain, when it is being compared with some other estimates of the past that were published about a year ago. I am not sure what the last four placements expect.

That figure is everything, Cash & non cash plus $48.00 Mil FOM TV money.
ie. Part of that number is Mercedes Benz 105.0 mil Cash & 135.0 non cash (240.0m ttl)

[Peri_Piket]

Again???

It's just impossible to know for sure...

Not only bcs it is a corp. secret, but bcs the structure and the business process is different from team to team.

I separate the activities in the following way.

A> Race car manufacturing/development and race/test teams.
B> Driver's salary.
C> Promotional activities.
D> CAPEX.

A> What changes mostly is wether they make their own engine or it is leased.
I the project is developed by their own or by the mother company (RBR-STR; Honda-SAguri).

B> In Ferrari's case, Marlboro (PM) pays the drivers salary.
That's a big source of change.

C> In most of countries, F1 event is the biggest activity in the budget.
Therefore you have to know if the teams budget includes promo activities or the contry branch will pay for those expenses.
Travelling, hotel, etc.

D> Capex or investments in fixed assets.
Some teams are/were investing to improve their structure.
Ferrari is a mature team and has it all already. Not so much money separated in the budget for them.
BMW however is investing lots of money in Hinwill to integrate the systems to Germany and move lots of headcount there. therefore it's share in the budget is big, but will cease as soon as the plants are ready. Then the budget will be reduced a lot.
McLaren was building the Paragon.
Toyota was investing and making countless revisions in their cars plus the wages of that fake designer that was fired... I forgot his name.

So whenever you talk about budget in F1, you are talking about different activities and structures.
You just can't compare bcs they don't work the same way or they are in different life cicles.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Modern Lover


Try Norway.

And Sweden.

[KWSN - DSM]

The budgets according to BusinessF1 seems to go against a nummber of "known" truths as they have been written up endlessly the past couple of seasons.

I can folllow the idea of CAPEX, Promo, Country of origin. But since all the numbers are either inferred or guesswork, then no matter what the CAPEX, Promo, driver salery is for the different teams, it would still be inferred and guesswork.

I am surprised that McLaren are suppposed to have the biggest budget in F1. I would expect that two top spenders to be Honda and Toyota. They are however the two moost likely to parcel out the bill for an appearence to the local organisations, so their use of promo dollars will not be seen as part of the F1 budget..

I am aware that Renauklt supposedly have become WDC and WCC the past two seasons, with a budget substancially less than the other front runners. I do not quite believe in this though. I am sure that they have spend basically the same amount as McLaren and Ferrari, but that their engine cost have been hidden somewhere in the Renault organization.

BMW is an up and comer, and a re spending serious amount of resources the past and next two seasons. So I expect that they will spend as Ferrari, Renault and McLaren.

Super Aguri is the Honda "b" team, and they should be shown as 1 entry. Same for Red Bull and Toro Rosso.

Williams nneed to show a lot of goood this season, not to become the next team to be bought out.

Spyker is onroute to no-where.

Mclaren 493.1 mil
Honda 420.9
Ferrari 401.25
Toyota 392.7
BMW 388.4
Renault 312.7
Red Bull 283.6
Williams 192.85
Super Aguri 91.5
Toro Rosso 90
Spyker 71.95