21 replies to this topic

[24h(i)story]

Hello,
need some help with dates of birth/death (other infomations are also welcome) about

André Lagache (F)
b. ??
d. August ??, 1938

René Leonard (F)
b.
d.

John Duff (CDN/GB)
b. ?? in China
d. January 9, 1958

Frank C. Clement (GB)
b. ?? 1886
d. ? Februar 1970

Gérard de Courcelles (F)
b.
d. 1927

André Rossignol (F)
b.
d.

Robert Bloch (F)
b.
d.

Joseph Dudley 'Doc' Benjafield (GB)
b. August/December 6, 1887 North-London
d. ??

Woolf (Joel) Barnato (GB)
b. ?? 1895
d. July 27, 1948 /or 46 ??

Sir Henry [Ralph S.] 'Tim' Birkin (GB)
b. ?? 1896 Nottingham/GB
d. June 22, 1933 London

Glen Kidston (GB)
b. 1901 ??
d. ??. 1932 South-Africa

John S. Hindmarsh (GB)
b. ??
d. ??

Luis Fontes (RA/E ??)
b. 1914
d. 1940

Jean Trémoulet (F)
b. ??
d. 194? in WW II

Lord Selsdon (GB) aka Peter Mitchell-Thompson
b. ??
d. ??

Pierre Veyron (F)
b. ?? 1903 Lozere/F
d. Oktober 3, 1970 Cap d’Eze/F (or Paris ??)

Ninian Sanderson (GB)
b. Mai 14, 1925 Glasgow ??
d. Oktober 1, 1985 Glasgow

[David McKinney]

Fontes was neither RA nor E but GB ;)

[Richard Jenkins]

Most, if not all of these dates are either here or on the web if you use search effectively.

See this thread for all the information you need, for starters.

[ReWind]

André Ernest Paul Lagache (Fra)
b. January 21, 1885 Pantin
d. August 02, 1938 Versailles-Satory

René Leonard (Fra)
b.
d.

John F. Duff (Can/GBr)
b. January 17, 1895 Kiukang (China)
d. January 08 (or: 09?), 1958 Epping Forest

Francis Charles "Frank" Clement (GBr)
b. June 15, 1888 (not: 1886)
d. February 15, 1970 Northumberland

Gérard de Courcelles (Fra)
b.
d. July 03, 1927 Montlhéry

André Rossignol (Fra)
b.
d.

Robert Bloch (Fra)
b.
d.

Dr. John (or: Joseph?) Dudley "Doc" "Benjy" Benjafield (GBr)
b. August (not: December) 06, 1887 Edmonton, North London
d. January 20, 1957

Joel (or: Joey?) Woolf „Babe“ Barnato (GBr/SAf)
b. September 27, 1895 Westminster, London
d. July 27, 1948 (not: 1946) Marylebone, London

Sir Henry Ralph Stanley "Tim" Birkin (GBr)
b. July 26, 1896 Nottingham
d. June 22, 1933 London

George Pearson Glen Kidston (GBr)
b. January 23, 1899 (not: 1901) London
d. May 05, 1931 (not: 1932) Van Reenan, Drakensburg Mountains (South Africa)

Philip (or: John?) Stuart „John“ „Johnny“ Hindmarsh (GBr)
b. November 25, 1907 Hastings, East Sussey
d. September 06, 1938 Brooklands, Weybridge, Surrey

Luis Goncelvis Fontès (GBr)
b. December 26, 1912 (not: 1914) Hampstead, London
d. October 12, 1940 Llysworney, Glamorgan

Jean Trémoulet (Fra)
b. April 12, 1909 Vézac
d. October 13, 1944 (or: 1942?) Sagelat

Patrick William Malcolm „Peter“ Mitchell-Thompson = (since December 24, 1938) Lord (2nd Baron) Selsdon of Croydon (GBr)
b. May 28, 1913 Hants
d. February 07, 1963

Pierre Veyron (Fra)
b. October 01, 1903 Lozere (or: Berc?)
d. October 03, 1970 Cap d'Eze (not: Paris)

Ninian Sanderson (GBr)
b. May 14, 1925 Glasgow
d. October 1, 1985 Glasgow

[Vitesse2]

Reinhard: I can add the following -

Frank Clement died at his home, Linnel Dene, Hexham, Northumberland (Times 17/2/70 p16). According to the death notice he was 83, so 1886 appears to be correct. Same age quoted in a brief obituary two days later.

Death notice for Joseph (not John) Dudley Benjafield gives January 21st "in his sleep", so that might be down to whether or not he died before midnight: death certificate probably says 21st, as that would be the day it was written. Place of death: Harley St, London W1. (Times 23/1/57) Obituary in The Times, on 22/1/57 says he died "yesterday".

Lord Selsdon died on board ship, specifically a vessel called the Baron Garioch, off the coast of west Africa. According to a report of his memorial service in The Times of 20/2/63, he was buried at sea: during WW2 he had been a naval officer and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his work in motor gunboats.

[GeoffE]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Frank Clement died at his home, Linnel Dene, Hexham, Northumberland (Times 17/2/70 p16). According to the death notice he was 83, so 1886 appears to be correct. Same age quoted in a brief obituary two days later.

The person who registered his death said he was born on 15 June 1886. Of course, this need not be correct.

The birth of a Francis Charles CLEMENT was registered in the 3rd quarter of 1886 in Berkhamstead.

If one prefers a Northumbrian birth (I don't know if this is desirable), there was one registered in the 4th quarter of 1888 in Newcastle. However, this one had no middle name and there would seem to have been a sizeable delay before the birth was registered.

[m.tanney]

John Duff died on January 8, 1958. I got the date from his eldest son, Paul, who passed away last year. It was confirmed by his sister.

[24h(i)story]

To David :

Quote

Fontes was neither RA nor E but GB

I was in a doubt because I thought that Fontes was born in Argentine and found him in Moity/Teissedres 2 vol. bible "24 Heures du Mans 1923-1992" as "Espagne" - and not "Grand-Bretagne" as Hindmarsh - and in "Les 24 Heures du Mans 1923-1982" published by the A.C.O. as "Sud-Ame".
But in an ACO-Database (done by Philippe Saby/IGM, published on CD-ROM in 2000) the Nationality is specified as "Anglais" - what ReWind confirms

To ReWind (& all the others) :

Thank you for the big part of completion, this helps a lot more than Richie Jenkins comment.

Believe me, I spent some time of research on Internet, TNF and my library to find the missing facts - hope we can find more of the french drivers!

[24h(i)story]

Just discovered, according to Dr. Benjafield, to underline the statement of Vitesse2 :

www.brooklandsmuseum.com/forum

Interesting to read - scroll down to found the last entry:

Dudley Benjafield died on 21 January 1957 at 78 Harley Street, London, in his
sleep. His funeral notice in he Times 23 January 1957 stated he 'was deeply
mourned by his wife and son'.

[D-Type]

Quote

Originally posted by 24h(i)story
Just discovered, according to Dr. Benjafield, to underline the statement of Vitesse2 :

www.brooklandsmuseum.com/forum

Interesting to read - scroll down to found the last entry:

Dudley Benjafield died on 21 January 1957 at 78 Harley Street, London, in his
sleep. His funeral notice in he Times 23 January 1957 stated he 'was deeply
mourned by his wife and son'.

Beware of incestuous information - it was probably Richard who provided the information to the Brooklands website.

I'm curious. What are you seeking this information for?

[Richard Jenkins]

Quote

Originally posted by 24h(i)story

Thank you for the big part of completion, this helps a lot more than Richie Jenkins comment.

Believe me, I spent some time of research on Internet, TNF and my library to find the missing facts -

Of course it does - as they've given you the information straight out instead of researching it yourself.

I apologise for not being more helpful but when, let's use an example, John Duff has a full & comprehensive Wikipedia page here , plus there's a number of web pages with the information on AND on TNF alone, John Duff THREAD, to say you looked everywhere before coming here, well, I'm sorry, but it just looked to me like you were just being plain lazy.

If that isn't the case, I furtherly apologise. You're essentially getting the backlash for something that's not your fault, but I am just sick & tired of people copying information I've (or others) have taken ages to find, not giving credit, and then using it for unknown purposes, (including some from Germany), so I was a little suspicious when I saw that was where you were from and with no further information as to WHAT you are doing with the info. At least people like Rewind, Haine etc who ask for dates give a hell of a lot back in turn.

Oh dear, looks like I'm in early stages of grumpyoldmanitis. And I haven't even started on the fact that Wikipedia are plagarising my Indy 500 driver research (and god knows who else's work) without giving credit.

To prove I'm not all bad:

Andre Rossingol b. 1889, in Paris.

[24h(i)story]

Richie,
I can understand your distrust, but why do you aim at my nationality?
Do you have any problems with the Germans? Didn't know that this forum is only open for the British ;)

Its obviously that we have a better access to informations concerning our drivers and a lot lesser possibility as to english or quiete french drivers.
I didnt have the advantage of being nearly seven years on TNF.

As you can see in the posts above there is a great confusion about the facts of the early years as you know from the work of your own website.
My hope is to clear that a little bit.
I certainly know Haines thread, but he aims to all drivers who made the 24h.

To calm you and other sceptical people like D-Type here:
Its all for my private Database, maybe it can drop into a book with biographies of all Le Mans winning drivers.
If this can be realised, the source will be named, of course.

At least: thank you for the info about Rossignol

[Richard Jenkins]

Quote

Originally posted by 24h(i)story
Richie,
I can understand your distrust, but why do you aim at my nationality? Do you have any problems with the Germans?
Its obviously that we have a better access to informations concerning our drivers and a lot lesser possibility as to english or quiete french drivers.

To cut a VERY long story short - apologies Duncan but I said this would happen! -

When I came back to the UK in 2005, I started doing a big overview of all my current information. Whilst searching, I found SIX sites that had blatantly copied off the WATN site. I emailed all 6, three of them gave me credit, apologised & I work with them. One is no longer going. The other two still copy willy-nilly but I have named & shamed them in the past & those that matter know who got the information 1st.

Of those six, three were German sites. One was English, two American. One American & One German didn't respond.

I have no problems with the German historians & researchers who work diligently, harder than most other nations, are passionate about their history (unlike some nations) and I owe them a lot of thanks with previous research. They are a shining example of what motorsport research should be about - in fact, the Germans are amongst the best in the world. And in addition, Hans-Joachim Stuck has, out of all the drivers covered in the WATN, been the most supportive & reliable.

My problem is with the charlatans, those that copy everything and offer nothing. It's such a shame that there are a few countrymen of yours who give a collective bad name by just copying everything. That's why I was a little wary.


Anyway, sounds like a good project. Because Haine has covered the Le Mans fellows so well, I'm not going to go into Le Mans WATN etc., but a book with birthdates & profiles of the winners, at least, would be very good, so good luck with it.

I can only add that Rossignol was also a car manufacturer & mechanic, and that his family originally came from Lille. I know nothing more, I'm afraid...

[Allen Brown]

Quote

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
And I haven't even started on the fact that Wikipedia are plagarising my Indy 500 driver research (and god knows who else's work) without giving credit.

Richie

I didn't know about this. Can you give me a couple of examples and I'll get in touch with the right people at Wikipedia. They have strict rules about not abusing copyright and I am a greater believer in copyright. All your information published on OldRacingcars.com appears with a very clear copyright message and the Wikipedia people should be respecting that. Everything you and others have written here is also copyright Autosport.com so they have no excuse.

Allen

[Richard Jenkins]

Fred Belcher is one - only Wikipedia, of all web pages in the universe, has that exact same information copied.

Likewise Jack Curtner

Likewise Bill Endicott

and so on and so on (most Indianapolis drivers). I thought Wikipedia were supposed to list sources where the information came from?
That's all I want. Granted it's not lifting the bios up as much as other sites have done, but it takes a lot of finding, some of these dates, and so to see them on Wikipedia without a credit to the source is a bit

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by D-Type
Beware of incestuous information - it was probably Richard who provided the information to the Brooklands website.

Not me Duncan: but Paul Narramore is better known around here as "Paul Rochdale". I'd actually found that separately on the day I posted it.

[Hieronymus]

Quote

Originally posted by ReWind

George Pearson Glen Kidston (GBr)
b. January 23, 1899 (not: 1901) London
d. May 05, 1931 (not: 1932) Van Reenan, Drakensburg Mountains (South Africa)

Just a small correction here. The correct spelling is "Van Reenen" and also "Drakensberg".

Does anyone knows the reason for Kidston's death?

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Hieronymus


Just a small correction here. The correct spelling is "Van Reenen" and also "Drakensberg".

Does anyone knows the reason for Kidston's death?

Plane crash "near to the mountain known as Tantjiesberg", about 16 miles north of the Van Reenen Pass. Eye-witness reports spoke of a large object - possibly a wing - falling from the plane, which immediately fell to earth and was smashed to matchwood. Lt-Cmdr Kidston and his companion Capt TA Gladstone were killed instantly.

Kidston was flying from Johannesburg to Durban, stopping off at Pietermaritzburg on the way. Local pilots were quoted as saying that Van Reenen was "a death-trap for any airman unused to its peculiar dangers" of wind and dust clouds.

At a joint inquest and inquiry into the accident, held in Bloemfontein at the end of May, it was suggested that there was a fundamental design flaw in the DH Puss Moth which resulted in the breakage of the wing. The inquiry was adjourned sine die in order that expert witnesses could be called from England: if they ever arrived the result was not reported.

Source: The Times passim.

[Hieronymus]

Richard, thanks for the interesting details re. Kidston's unfortunate death. Was this suppose to be a "leasure cruise" or did Kidston had some links with the Air Force in ZA or GB?

From a miltary perspective it is interesting perhaps to point out that the TANDJIESBERG (note spelling)-Van Reenen-Harrismith area was a so-called "hot-spot" during the Anglo-Boer War.

[Vitesse2]

Kidston was in South Africa after having set a new UK-Cape record of 57hr 10min, arriving on April 6th. After landing he issued a statement declaring his intention to go even faster on the return flight. The Puss Moth in which he died was not the record plane, of course: that was a Lockheed Vega, with a specially requested personal registration G-ABGK.

The record flight was almost incidental though, as his main purpose for being in South Africa was as part of plans to expand Union Airways: Captain Gladstone, who died with him, was a leading figure in early African aviation, having been the business partner of Sir Alan Cobham - their company was eventually absorbed into Imperial Airways - and carried out several proving flights over South and Central Africa. Kidston and Gladstone had secured a contract for the transport of diamonds by air from Kimberley to "the distributing centre" (in Durban?).

Kidston had flown in South Africa before and was apparently aware of the dangers, but there was speculation that perhaps he didn't have enough flying hours to his credit. Whatever the truth behind that, he had led a charmed life up to that point. As a young naval cadet he survived the sinking of HMS Hogue in September 1914, spending over 2 hours in the water before being rescued and interned in Holland. Upon release he joined HMS Orion of the Grand Fleet, so was presumably at Jutland. In July 1917 he was promoted and then joined the submarine service - not a posting from which survival was guaranteed in those days. He returned to the surface in 1923, joining HMS Dauntless in which he circumnavigated the globe. Then he joined the crew of the largest submarine yet built, the X1, and finished his underwater career as skipper of the H48. His last posting was to the aircraft carrier Courageous, after which he retired from the active list.

Meanwhile, he had discovered motorcycle trials and hillclimbs and then motor racing: he survived quite a number of spills from bikes and crashed his Bentley at 95mph during the wet 1929 Tourist Trophy in vain pursuit of Regenmeister Caracciola's Mercedes: a laconic Kidston apparently quipped that a prominent telegraph pole "got out of the way quickly". The Bentley ended up in a ditch after a lurid skid, running along the verge and then broadsiding across the road and climbing a high bank: the spare wheel hit a tree and the car dived into the ditch.

Not content with the excitement of cars and bikes he took up motor boating and had a speedboat break up under him (and his wife) in the Solent while doing 50 knots - another half hour in the water awaiting rescue!

As if that wasn't enough, he then took flying lessons at Hamble, quickly gaining his private pilot's licence and buying several light aircraft. Kidston was part-owner of the Fokker from which Belgian financier Alfred Loewenstein was lost while crossing the English Channel (he apparently opened the wrong door while heading for the toilet and fell out!) and he later crashed the same machine in a swamp near the White Nile while taking a party of hunters and photographers to East Africa. He escaped unhurt.

On November 6th 1929 he was the only survivor from a German Junkers airliner which crashed near Caterham on a flight from Croydon to Amsterdam, emerging from the wreckage with his clothes on fire: in true "hero pilot" fashion he immediately made his way back to Croydon and took a short flight to test his nerve!

[Hieronymus]

Fascinating stuff!! Thanks for that!

[24h(i)story]

I must totally agree!!

Thank you all the guys here for sharing their informations, hope to do the same if possible.

Richie:
I can't be sorry for my countrymen, but you are right: copying & plagiarism are the greatest problems of the WWW - too many people uses it in a manner as "Its on the Net - its free for all".

So I'am glad that we now have a common sense and don't blame each other.

My work has about 150 pages of raw text and it's in german - what seems to be a big problem, because there's not a great interest of reading about Endurance-racing here in an (gone-by) era of an F1-hero named Schumacher.

But times they're chang'n...