48 replies to this topic

[Roly]

Hi all,

I have tried to do some searching (google and this site) but couldn´t find what I was looking for.
Some times it is hard to find exactly what your looking for on the internet.

I´m a model builder and want to make 1 or more models 1/20 of some of the private run Mclaren M23´s that were raced by diffirent teams drivers.
One of them is the M23 run by Brett Lunger for example.
Would/could any one here post links to sites (or threads on this site) or pics of this and please alos other M23's.

Any help much appreciated.

[Ray Bell]

Are you interested in anything of the John McCormack car?

[macoran]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Are you interested in anything of the John McCormack car ?

My memory must be going off on a tangent .....which car was that Ray ?

[Leo D]

Originally posted by macoran


My memory must be going off on a tangent .....which car was that Ray ?

The one that he converted to run in F5000..... alloy Leyland P76 V8 based powered from memory...

[Ray Bell]

There's a little bit about the McCormack car here:

http://forums.autosp...=&postid=174659

[David M. Kane]

www.historicgrandprix.com

Check out Danny Baker under drivers...

[teegeefla]

Brett Lunger site:

http://digilander.li...er/index_uk.htm

[FLB]

http://www.icon.co.z...inw/page16.html

There are some pcitures of Dave Charlton's M23 on this page, in b&w.

http://miarroba.com/...&temaid=3650241

Emilio de Villota's M23 is featured on this page.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Leo D


The one that he converted to run in F5000..... alloy Leyland P76 V8 based powered from memory...

Unfortunately the project was a failure in a lot of areas......

[Ray Bell]

It won the Gold Star and was fastest car on a few circuits... I wouldn't rate that as a failure...

The really unfortunate part is that they didn't pursue the IMC heads.

[f1steveuk]

Probably never got much further, but I know that Donnington still have the unbuilt car that was ordered for Roger Williamson, but did they ever get as far as designing a coulour scheme, assuming of course they had sponsors lined up?

[asag]

I have some photos at my homepage:
http://www.asag.sk/charlton-a1.htm

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Probably never got much further, but I know that Donnington still have the unbuilt car that was ordered for Roger Williamson, but did they ever get as far as designing a coulour scheme, assuming of course they had sponsors lined up?

Steve

The Williamson/Wheatcroft M23 story has always interested me but is there any evidence to back it up? I cannot imagine that, if Tom did have such a car in a crate somewhere, he would not have built it up by now!

In his book, he says that he talked to McLaren about ordering a pair of M23s for 1974 but they could not deliver (p146) and then he later talks about the cost of ordering these cars (£40,000) on p178 but nowhere does it say that he actually bought them, or even one.

However, I ceased to be surprised by things that went on in the world of motor sport many years ago, so I am happy to be corrected on this one!

Michael

[Roly]

Hi guys,

That's already some very nice info. But would any of you have some more pics of the cars in question. That's what I'm after, not so much the stories behind it (how interesting they are).
It does not help me as building reference for my models.

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Steve

The Williamson/Wheatcroft M23 story has always interested me but is there any evidence to back it up? I cannot imagine that, if Tom did have such a car in a crate somewhere, he would not have built it up by now!

In his book, he says that he talked to McLaren about ordering a pair of M23s for 1974 but they could not deliver (p146) and then he later talks about the cost of ordering these cars (£40,000) on p178 but nowhere does it say that he actually bought them, or even one.

However, I ceased to be surprised by things that went on in the world of motor sport many years ago, so I am happy to be corrected on this one!

Michael

I have Mr Critcher staying with me in France at the moment, and we checked a few books on this. In David Tremayne's Racers Apart, Tom actually said he ordered the cars from Pat, and had one delivered, which he says "is still in the crate". Kevin also mentioned it to me once, and said that his dad didn't have the heart to see it built, in case someone other than Roger drove it. Maybe a little more digging!!??

[simonlewisbooks]

Roly
Here's two from the 1978 International Trophy at Silverstone but I regret that being backlit they probabaly don't add much visible detail for your purposes. I'll see what else I can find.

De Villotta in practice

Trimmer in practice

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by f1steveuk


I have Mr Critcher staying with me in France at the moment, and we checked a few books on this. In David Tremayne's Racers Apart, Tom actually said he ordered the cars from Pat, and had one delivered, which he says "is still in the crate". Kevin also mentioned it to me once, and said that his dad didn't have the heart to see it built, in case someone other than Roger drove it. Maybe a little more digging!!??

Intriguing, isn't it? I'll see what I can find out from other sources...

[canon1753]

On the Wheatcroft M23, did McLaren ever give it a chassis number or is there a gap for an M23 that didn't race? That might give us a sense of something.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Intriguing, isn't it? I'll see what I can find out from other sources...

OK, this is from Leo Wybrott, Chief Mechanic at McLaren during this period:

"In answer to your question regarding M23s for Tom. He may have spoken to either Teddy Mayer or Phil Kerr about M23s but I would have been involved if there had been any serious discussion about selling him cars.

We did not make or sell any M23s for any persons other than the two, one new and one ex works to BS fabs.

The only chassis that I know about which is still in a crate is the one I was building at Mclarens, 23/7 and believe that it is still in its crate, in storage at Mclarens."

I find it almost inconceivable that the Chief Mechanic would be unaware of even a tub being built and sent to Tom, so the mystery deepens...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
....."The only chassis that I know about which is still in a crate is the one I was building at Mclarens, 23/7 and believe that it is still in its crate, in storage at Mclarens.".....

Maybe so, but that raises the issue of why McLaren bought back the McCormack car...

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Maybe so, but that raises the issue of why McLaren bought back the McCormack car...

Ray,

So far as I am aware, the McCormack car was M23/2, ex-Revson, then to Dave Charlton in SA, then to McCormack. M23/7 was the car written off by Mike Hailwood on the last lap of the 1974 German Grand Prix and I believe Leo was tasked with rebuilding it by McLaren because of his expertise with this particular model.

[David McKinney]

I think what Ray was getting at was, why would McLaren buy back a car from Australia if they already had one sitting in a box at home?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver

I find it almost inconceivable that the Chief Mechanic would be unaware of even a tub being built and sent to Tom, so the mystery deepens...

I don't think there's a mystery behind this, personally. My supposition is that Wheaty planned with Roger to get an M23 for 1974 - and may well have made an exploratory call to Pat McLaren - but the contradictions he himself has made (see Steve's earlier post citing the references in David Tremayne's books) leads me to believe that this has become confused in the devastating aftermath of Zandvoort.

Actually I would like to be proved wrong, being an old romantic, but Leo Wybrott's testimony is rather compelling. As for others perpetuating the *myth*, well they have vested interests I guess.

Unless it's true, of course...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I think what Ray was getting at was, why would McLaren buy back a car from Australia if they already had one sitting in a box at home?

Spot on, David...

[72xa]

Re M23/2 history as per Mike Oliver with an update that it was traded to Jody Scheckter for M19C/1 when McLaren International purchased M23/5.

M23/7 does not exist as I have read some where that the remains were donated to the fire marshals at Silverstone. There may be another M23 in a crate at McLaren Racing but it isn’t M23/7.

Leo was not chief mechanic, but was in charge of the fabrication shop so as stated he would definitely know whether any extra cars were built in period.

Re post by David as to why McLaren International would buy a car, simple really, they needed a pukka car for the Heritage Collection.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 72xa
.....Re post by David as to why McLaren International would buy a car, simple really, they needed a pukka car for the Heritage Collection.

By me, actually... yeah, that makes sense, I thought that could be the case...

McCormack took great pains when adapting things for F5000 not to destroy anything so it could be changed back to F1 when he was done with it.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It won the Gold Star and was fastest car on a few circuits... I wouldn't rate that as a failure...

The really unfortunate part is that they didn't pursue the IMC heads.

Ray, i did not mean the chassis, what i was refering to was the engine, which in concept was brilliant but development a lot was left to be desired.........

[f1steveuk]

Actually when you read DJT's qoute of Tom's comment, it could be that he recieved parts, and was waiting for the tubs? Just a thought, but Kevin was convinced.

Now how many possible customers could you get for a brand new, no milage M23????;)

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by f1steveuk

Now how many possible customers could you get for a brand new, no milage M23????;)

How many buyers of brand new F1 cars back in the 70s would have

a/ the compassion
b/ the cash to spare

to leave them in a crate for 34 years rather than sell them off because the intended driver was killed?

Can't think of anyone apart from Tom !

Its really quite a touching story, if it turns out to be true.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Actually when you read DJT's qoute of Tom's comment, it could be that he recieved parts, and was waiting for the tubs? Just a thought, but Kevin was convinced.

Now how many possible customers could you get for a brand new, no milage M23????;)

I always got the impression from reading that that Tom had all the bits to make an F2, but didn't have the M23s.

[FLB]

Is there a paper trail anywhere that could help sort it out?

[Allen Brown]

For much of the 1980s and 1990s I made it my job to locate every one of the 3-litre F1 cars. I visited the cellars at the Donington Museum on a number of occasions and I was also helped quite a bit by Leo Wybrott and others close to McLaren. In all that time, I never heard anything of a M23 in a crate at Donington. Given my determination to chase up every rumour (see Toutou), I'd be very surprised indeed if it had escaped my attention.

Allen

[f1steveuk]

Bugger! If you haven't found it, there's little chance!

[Allen Brown]

Steve

I have learnt never to say never. Maybe it does exist and I just missed it. It has happened before and it will happen again. But, as I said, I'd be surprised.

McLaren acquired a copy of all my ownership records some years ago via an intermediary. Since then, they've acquired a number of cars that they wouldn't previously have known where to find. Go on, ask me how much commission I made.

Allen

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Steve

I have learnt never to say never. Maybe it does exist and I just missed it. It has happened before and it will happen again. But, as I said, I'd be surprised.

McLaren acquired a copy of all my ownership records some years ago via an intermediary. Since then, they've acquired a number of cars that they wouldn't previously have known where to find. Go on, ask me how much commission I made.

Allen

Commission!!!!!???? , Allen, I have learnt, no one seem to want to pay you for what you know! Which can be a pain when it's what you do for a living You have my sympathy, but I know where "he " lives!

[Allen Brown]

The intermediary in question is a thoroughly nice guy and has been hugely helpful to me on a number of occasions. I just didn't realise that's what he was going to do with the information I gave him.

Most of the time I'd never dream of being paid for what I know but when someone makes a deal from what I know, I think 'a drink' is appropriate.

Getting back to the theoretical McLaren M23, this is just the sort of story that is floated just before the 'discovery' of a previously unknown car. I've stopped believing in the Easter bunny ...

Allen

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Steve

I have learnt never to say never. Maybe it does exist and I just missed it. It has happened before and it will happen again. But, as I said, I'd be surprised.

McLaren acquired a copy of all my ownership records some years ago via an intermediary. Since then, they've acquired a number of cars that they wouldn't previously have known where to find. Go on, ask me how much commission I made.

Allen

Allen

I know exactly how you feel, given that a rather prominent car that I helped significantly increase the value of through my research has recently changed hands, reportedly for US$3 million (although I am not sure I believe that figure!). Never mind, we just need to keep reminding ourselves that we do it for the love...

Michael

[normbeechey]

What happened to the John McCormack McLaren after he finished with it? Does the car still exist? Here is a photo of it: http://members.tripo...8_Winton_78.jpg

Note: you may have to highlight this web address link and manually ‘copy’ and then ‘paste’ it onto your Internet web browser address bar.

[Ray Bell]

As mentioned earlier, it was sold back to McLaren and reassembled as a Formula 1 car...

And is there any other way to open those pics without pasting the url into the web browser? I think it works if you do that via google, doesn't it?

Oh, yeah, you have to click on 'quote' so you can get the full url... it's truncated here on the thread.

[normbeechey]

Sorry Ray, I didn't notice that bit about it being sold back to factory .

I think the problem with the URL may have something to do with the way I use spaces in the file name of JPG's that I place on the web site. I am going to have to change my ways, particularly when I switch from FrontPage to Dreamweaver to create my web pages.

By the way, if there's anyone out there willing to sort of mentor me through the process of change to Dreamweaver, I would appreciate it.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As mentioned earlier, it was sold back to McLaren and reassembled as a Formula 1 car...

And is there any other way to open those pics without pasting the url into the web browser? I think it works if you do that via google, doesn't it?

Oh, yeah, you have to click on 'quote' so you can get the full url... it's truncated here on the thread.

[Ray Bell]

No, I think it's because you use Tripod...

They seem to not like linking from other websites.

[Allen Brown]

I've used Dreamweaver since version 2.0 in 1998 but I've never used Frontpage so I'd have trouble helping you convert. Happy to help you if you get stuck on DW itself though. Are you getting version 8 ('DW8') or the brand new version CS3?

One tip I would give you is that DW takes you a particular route in the way you build pages and construct your site. I'd strongly recommend going its way and not resisting. Productivity drops off quickly in DW if you try to get it to do things your way. And its way is a good way.

Allen

[Twin Window]

Here's the pic Chris had the difficulty linking to;



From memory, that version of the airbox - with the narrower intake - wasn't used for very long in F1 by the factory. I seem to recall that it was first used in the latter part of 1974 (on the Yardley entry), and didn't last long past the opening rounds of 1975.

[Catalina Park]

The last time I saw that car it was in a garage at the AGP at Calder in 1980. It was missing something.

[Ray Bell]

Its hopitalised driver?

[Catalina Park]

Yep.

[normbeechey]

He never seemed to get over that road accident . I think he only raced a few times after that, from memory.

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't it just time to get out?

F5000, on its knees, was about to be dealt a body blow. I think he made an effort to go with the streamlined Can-Am, but lost interest.

[Catalina Park]

He had the Jaguar Sports Sedan which was doing well at the time. I think that he would have continued with it for a little longer.
I met John at Oran Pk a couple of months before his accident and he seemed a very nice bloke.