3513 replies to this topic

[LittleChris]

Yep, he also ran a racing dirvers school at Thruxton

[Milan Fistonic]

A bit more info on Ian Taylor.

Won the BOC and Daily Express FF1600 titles in 1972 driving a Dulon.

Won the F3 Forward Thrust with a March in 1973.

Won the FF2000 title in 1976.

Was vitually invincible in Sports 2000 in 1979 and 80 driving Tigas.

[Vitesse2]

Er, Milan, that should be "Forward TRUST", not Thrust! They were a finance company, not porn merchants!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Er, Milan, that should be "Forward TRUST", not Thrust! They were a finance company, not porn merchants!

Trust you, Richard. Trust you...

What kind of mind do you really have?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
...This comes to mind because of the death on September 30 of this year of his son of the same name, age 82. The younger Howard Wilcox ...

Thanks for the info, Mr Argetsinger, although it tends to disorientate me slightly...
For the "younger" Howard Wilcox to be aged 82 last September he should have been born in 1920 making his second place at the brickyard in 1932 some sort of an extraordinary fact...if he was really aged 12 I mean!

Thanks for the -forthcoming- answer...

Felix

[David McKinney]

The guy who was second at Indy in 1932 was, I believe, no relation to the 1919 winner
(though I'm sure I'll be quickly straightened out if I'm wrong ;) )

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


Thanks for the info, Mr Argetsinger, although it tends to disorientate me slightly...
For the "younger" Howard Wilcox to be aged 82 last September he should have been born in 1920 making his second place at the brickyard in 1932 some sort of an extraordinary fact...if he was really aged 12 I mean!

Thanks for the -forthcoming- answer...

Felix

Smirking yellow faces notwithstanding - I must report that (as David McKinney has already said) they were not related.

The "II" was added to the later Howard Wilcox's name by the contemporary media in order to clearly differentiate between the two. It was not something used by him or his family. I repeat, the 1932 2nd place finisher at the Indy 500 was not related to the 1919 winner. The recently deceased Howard Wilcox was, as per my original post, the son of Howard Wilcox the 1919 winner.

Howard Wilcox II was a "rookie" at Indy when he scored his 2nd place finish in 1932. He was driving a - William Cantlon entered - Lion Head sponsored - Stevens chassis - Miller engined car that he had qualified 6th. Wilcox was victim the following year of an unfortunate incident that kept him from starting the race. He had qualified for the race but the track doctor ( Dr. Allen) declared that as Wilcox was a diabetic he could not clear him to compete. Wilcox's fellow drivers supported him and stated that they had no objection to him racing but it was track owner Eddie Rickenbacker who made the final decision the morning of the race to exclude him on the grounds that he could have an attack while driving and endanger the other competitors. His car was taken over by Mauri Rose and the car was moved to the back of the grid of 42 starters. Rose had the car up to 4th place on the 48th lap when it retired. Howard Wilcox was tragically killed on October 14, 1946 at Converse, Indiana when he was struck by a car while serving as race starter.

As for the unfriendly tone of your post - I have no explanation.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
As for the unfriendly tone of your post - I have no explanation.

Sir:

You cannot imagine how distressing the above comment is to me. First time I dare to approach you directly with a question and now you see what happens...(Anyway, thanks for the reply, it clarifies everything that was muddy before).

There was not the slightest intention in my previous post to sound unfriendly, just (maybe) slightly funny. I know, I know, I should let those things to the english-speaking members of the Forum and refrain from adopting a "creative" English when it's obvious that even basic "messaging" is still some miles away from me. I eat my humble pie and swear that I will try to take care of my future tone.

Respectfully yours

Felix

[Vitesse2]

[/Kissinger mode]
Gentlemen, we seem to have some mutual misunderstanding here between two highly respected members of this forum.

Mike: I can see nothing unfriendly in Felix' post, only an understandable assumption, based not on what you said, but what you didn't say (and David subsequently did). Had I been in Felix' place, I too might have assumed that your reference to "the younger Howard Wilcox" referred to the 1932 rookie. In your second post, you say "I repeat ...": how can you repeat something you didn't say? What you are actually saying is "I confirm David's information ..."

Felix: your English is a damn sight better than some of the "natives"! Especially the ones who post in RC (I know I'm safe saying that in here!!) Did you ever manage to use "disingenuous" BTW?

I think a trans-Atlantic virtual handshake is in order .....

[Kissinger mode]

[Rob29]

Reported in todays Autosport that 2 children killed by Dave Brodie's Sierra Cosworth at meeting last weekend at South Dakota circuit Guyana. Meeting was a tribute to'local racing legend' Gavin Naraine who was murdered recently.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
[/Kissinger mode]

Mike: I can see nothing unfriendly in Felix' post...

...I think a trans-Atlantic virtual handshake is in order .....

[Kissinger mode]

I have to agree with Vitesse2 here. Must have caught Mike on a bad day, I think.

Have to say I was surprised at the way he took Felix' post. Seemed out of character for Mike, who is ever helpful, informative and entertaining.

A bit like the time I read a post of Fines' - reading the words, not absorbing the "smilies" - about using abbreviations and jargon in another thread. I took him seriously, when he was doing a bit of leg-pulling. Reading it again days later, I read it completely differently.

I can't blame it on a language problem either. Fines (who is German) speaks and writes English better than most English speakers (probably including myself!).

And Felix' English is excellent as well. Heaven help most of the rest of us if TNF was a Spanish-only forum!

[Darren Galpin]

Si - tengo muchas problems con español!

[jarama]

Darren,

¡Olé!

Carles.

[Mike Argetsinger]

I sincerely apologize to Felix for causing offense. On rereading the correspondence I am prepared to take full responsibility for what Vitesse2 calls a "mutual misunderstanding." I was startled and surprised at the time by what I discerned as the tone of Felix's comment. But I read entirely too much in to it - and that is my fault and not his.

Felix - I have nothing but respect and admiration for you and am somewhat embarrassed that I responded publicly to an imagined slight. Therefore I apologize publicly and hope you will accept.

Vitesse2 - thank you for your conciliatory role in this. I would however ask you to reread my post. Where I say "I repeat" - it was in fact a repeat of what I said in the previous paragraph (while crediting David with having said it first!).

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
Vitesse2 - thank you for your conciliatory role in this. I would however ask you to reread my post. Where I say "I repeat" - it was in fact a repeat of what I said in the previous paragraph (while crediting David with having said it first!).

Sorry Mike - too much scrolling up and down, I'm afraid! I must have skimmed over that ....

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Trust you, Richard. Trust you...

What kind of mind do you really have?

Warped?

Pedantic .....

[Barry Boor]

What a wonderful world we would live in if the rest of the planet could use common sense and reason to eliminate misunderstandings the way we do on this forum.

[Felix Muelas]

Dear Michael,

Apologies accepted, received with thanks and relief... Incident finished. I very much appreciate your kind words.
To be honest, I did not know what had happened but it was obvious at the moment of reading your comment that my immediate apology was needed. And of course this final reaction of yours (apologizing both in public and in private) qualifies you as the gentleman I truly believe you are.

I thank all the embassadors (Richard, Barry Lake, Barry Boor) for their intermediation.

Un abrazo to you all,

Felix

[Darren Galpin]

Further to Rob29's post, from Lycos Caribbean:

11/4/2002
Two children killed in crash in Guyana car race

GEORGETOWN, Guyana - A race car killed two children and injured at least another four people when it skidded off the track and crashed through a chain-link fence, police said.

Driving in heavy rain at an international motor racing competition Sunday, the car driven by Briton David Brodie hit a group watching from a field on the inside of the track. Brodie was not hurt.

The two children — Ashton DeSouza, 2, and Dyna DeSouza, 6 — had been with their parents watching the races at the South Dakota Circuit, 27 miles from the capital, Georgetown.

At least four other people were injured and hospitalized, but their condition was not immediately known, police said.

The organizers, Guyana Motor Racing and Sports Club, canceled activities at the track after the accident.

The event had been organized in memory of former national champion Gavin Narine, who was killed in September when gunmen fired through a Georgetown bar. Three others were killed in that shooting and six were injured.

[john medley]

To this sad and long list,add Australian MGTC drivers Jack Johnson(1949),Ron Kennedy,Keith Tracy,Ian Jackson(1950s), and Ken Rowe(1990s), Jackson in his GN Special at Collingove Hillclimb.

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't it Jim Johnson at Baradine in 1957 too?

Not racing, but preparing for a record attempt...

Actually, I think one of the purposes of this thread was to put actual dates on deaths... apart from offering the recognition to the big and the small who have died in our pursuit.

[Barry Lake]

Keith Tracy and Ian Jackson are new to me, John. Any further details?


I believe it was Coonabarabran where Jim Johnson was killed - or did they just use that name because it was the nearest major town?

[Ray Bell]

Basically, yes... the 40th anniversary was held at Baradine.

This actually dragged out information about the Johnson crash that was previously ...well, shall we say a little submerged? ... that the damage was to the rear of the car, not the front.

Which was a relief to the present owner, who had a car which had no signs of major damage to the front... the kind of stuff you'd find if a car ran into a truck during early morning warm up runs. Johnson was able to spin it, it seems... and this came out at the 40th anniversary.

[john medley]

Jack Johnson was fatally injured when his MGTC rolled on him under brakes into Murray's Corner Bathurst Easter Sunday 1949, Jim Johnson as already noted at Coonabarabran 1957,Keith Vincent Tracey (or Tracy) Mount Druitt airstrip late 1951, Ian 'Bud' Jackson when he rolled his GN Special and not for the first time 1951 I think.There is mention of Jackson's accident in one of Nancy Cato's novels,'All the Rivers Run' perhaps: she was of course was Mrs Eldred Norman, and another South Australian with some real motor racing events in her novels.Another South Australian Ron Kennedy crashed his MGTC into a bridge abutment while running it in late at night prior to a race and was killed. To clear up another mystery or two that puzzled Ray Bell in this forum a long time ago, Kennedy's girlfriend ( perhaps fiancee) at the time also raced and hillclimbed her( his?) MGTC as Miss J Rackham, much later to be married to John Snow (MG K3, Delahaye, Cooper Vincent, etc)and proprietor of Port Stephens' Snows Real Estate, although she wasnt there when I called in about two years ago.
And one more: the poor unfortunate whose fatal accident after he choked on his chewing gum caused many of us including Barry Lake to not chew gum while racing was A.F.F.( Tony) Dennis, described as a protege of Duncan Hamilton's.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Actually, I think one of the purposes of this thread was to put actual dates on deaths...

•Easter Monday 1949 was 18 April (re Jack Johnson)
•Ron Kennedy's fatal accident was reported as having taken place "the night before" the 1951 Gawler meeting, which took place on 11 June
•Bud Johnson's final Collingrove accident was on 9 June 1952, and he died three days later

[Criceto]

Another one, I'm afraid.

Autosport of May 4th 1972 reports the death of Bill Hedley-Matthews, a sprinter and hillclimber by speciality, who was conducting a shakedown test of his 105E Ford Anglia at Thruxton. The accident took place on April 22nd 1972, when the 35-year old Salisbury garage owner ran straight on at Campbell corner.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by john medley
And one more: the poor unfortunate whose fatal accident after he choked on his chewing gum caused many of us including Barry Lake to not chew gum while racing was A.F.F.( Tony) Dennis, described as a protege of Duncan Hamilton's.

Sorry to seek to correct such a good authority on such a macabre detail but I don't believe it was Tony Dennis whose death at Goodwood in 1956 was in part attributed to choking on chewing gum.

Tony Dennis appeared to have found first gear instead of third when braking desperately hard into Goodwood's Woodcote Corner in a Duncan Hamilton-loaned D-Type Jaguar. The car spun into what was then a sand trap at the roadside, dug in and rolled. The unfortunate driver was crushed by the steering wheel and scuttle as he was only half-ejected from his seat. The monocoque tub - which many years later I helped rebuild - suffered panel damage in the scuttle area and immediately behind, and to the right, of the cockpit.

The Goodwood chewing gum casualty with whom Dennis might be confused - I have always understood - was Roy Bloxam several years later, when driving the celebrated Lister-Jaguar misleadingly registered 'VPP 9', which he crashed at high speed at Fordwater...the wreck catching fire briefly. His wife Jean also raced Aston Martins and subsequently remarried, becoming Mrs Michael Salmon.

Something based around the Bloxam Lister-Jaguar wreckage subsequently reappeared in Australia where the owner seemed to believe it was the ex-Scott-Brown 1958 car... wrong.

DCN

[john medley]

Sackcloth and ashes: I withdraw,apologize,and defer to Doug's note re Tony Dennis/Roy Bloxam.I feel quite certain I read an item otherwise in a newspaper at the time, but I'll just have to put that down to advancing decrepitude and a vagrant memory.
That same vagrant memory, prompted by Ray's (Pikes Peak) hillclimb note and by Doug's D-Type mention, brought out two more accidents,dates unrecalled: Australian hillclimber Werner Rodkin and Singaporean D Type driver Yong Nam Kee ( checked this : 2 Sept 1963)

[Barry Lake]

I believe Jack Johnson was killed during practice for the 1949 Bathurst meeting and this was Sunday 17 April.

Regarding the driver killed at Collingrove, was he Bud Jackson or Bud Johnson?

And on the subject of the sport car racer supposedly choking on his chewing gum, for more than 45 years I have believed this was Roy Bloxam. But, unless I am very much mistaken, as MW would say, when I suggested this on another thread some moons ago, it was countered by numerous people who claimed that this was incorrect.

Has my long term memory now been redeemed?

And Werner Rodkin; I have this as April 1988, but no exact date. Shouldn't be hard to track down, happened during a hillclimb event at Mount Tarrengower. But I don't have the time to go and dig out all the magazines of the period, sorry.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


I think you'll find it was the 19th David. My parents were married on Easter Monday 1949, so the date April 19th is burned on my memory!

Hmmm. Not according to my dates.

Mount Panorama, Goodwood, Pau GP, all on Easter Monday 18 June 1949.

Better get your parents to check the authenticity of their marriage certificate.

[Vitesse2]

My mistake indeed!!! I had always believed that they married on Easter Monday, but when I checked your post, I discovered I was wrong. While you were posting that, I was busy deleting the original post .....

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by Barry Lake


And Werner Rodkin; I have this as April 1988, but no exact date. Shouldn't be hard to track down, happened during a hillclimb event at Mount Tarrengower. But I don't have the time to go and dig out all the magazines of the period, sorry.

RCN has the date as Sunday April 10, 1988.

He was the record holder at Mt Tarrengower and his time set at the last meeting at that venue (in 1978) was unbeaten on the day of his death.

[Barry Lake]

What is the saying? "Many hands make light work".

I love this forum. Spend a lot of time here, but get a lot of time saving help as well.

Thanks, Milan.

[Jim Thurman]

Based on a query in the "Pikes Peak... fatalities?" thread, I found the first fatality at the Pike's Peak Hill Climb.

Wallace A. Coleman died after a crash in practice for the 1921 event.

No date.


Jim Thurman

[Barry Lake]

I have August 1921, no exact day.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I have August 1921, no exact day.

Barry,

I checked and the Pike's Peak Hill Climb ran on Labor Day from 1920 through 1955 (excepting the break for WWII)...so that would be in the right time frame.

Pike's Peak ran on or around July 4th for most of the years in anyone's consciousness, so much so, that it's forgotten about the times when it wasn't run around that time...and confusion ensues.


Jim Thurman

[Barry Lake]

Don't they have anyone in their organisation keen enough on history to go back through the local newspapers to check these things?

[Milan Fistonic]

Four deaths recorded in the Autosport report of the 1951 Pan-American Road Race.

On the first day of the event, November 20, 1951, Jose Menocal and Miguel Gonzales were killed when their car (make not mentioned) went over a cliff.

On November 21, 1951 an Alfa Romeo driven by Carlos Panini crashed killing his daughter Teresa Panini. Carlos himself died a few hours later.

[jarama]

Milan,

according to Cimarosti's "Carrera Panamericana "Mexico"" wonderful book, the Alfa Romeo driven by Carlos Panini was a '49 6C 2500 SS, while José Estrada Menocal was at the wheel of a Packard.

Carles.

[john medley]

Message of dual interest to Barry Lake:Bud Jackson previously mentioned on this thread fatally injured when he rolled his GN at Collingrove hillclimb was the original owner of the short chassised MGTC Special later raced if only briefly by Jack Brabham. I had forgotten this till I saw again the owners listed on the car yesterday at Wakefield Park driven by longtime owner John Gillett

[Barry Lake]

Thanks John.

On the US forum, Racing History (US oval racing) they recently digressed to include a Bridgehampton road race on 12 May 1953 (I wonder about the date, because this is a Tuesday).

It was reported that a Harry Gray (or Grey) spun and injured three spectators.

Also, a Bob Wilder was said to have been killed in an Allard on the day before the race. I haven't come across his name before, so assume it isn't in this thread.

Can anyone confirm the date of the meeting and/or add any details about Bob Wilder?

(Or Harry Gray, for that matter)

[LittleChris]

I don't think they've been mentioned yet, Peter Lindner and Franco Patria as well as several marshalls at Montlhery in 1964 ( 1000kms I think ).

[David McKinney]

Harry Grey was best known as winner of the 1952 Sebring 12hrs, sharing the wheel of Larry Kulok's Frazer Nash. Wilder won his class in the same race with a Morgan
Wilder went on to race a Jaguar and then a J2 Allard the same year, winning the Mount Equinox hillclimb outright and placing seventh overall in the SCCA Championship
In 1953 Wilder was third at Sebring with Johnston in a C-type Jag, but was in a new J2X Allard when he had his accident at the 23 May Bridgehampton meeting
Grey had entered a Porsche at Sebring that year but was a nonstarter. He was at the wheel of a C-type, battling with Cunningham's Ferrari, when he crashed at Bridgehampton

[Doug Nye]

As a very obscure but nonetheless equally unhappy addition to what Don Sergio in Modena would have called this Libro d'Oro (Golden Book) I have just found a 1951 print from Langa-Langa, Kenya, depicting a chap pressing on with a will in an MG TC...or maybe a Singer (??? I never can confidently tell these grey porridge cars - side-on - one from another). On the reverse of the print is this caption: "Sid White was unfortunately killed a few moments after this photgraph was taken. Perhaps steering with one hand at the terrific speed he was doing had something to do with it..." - with his right hand he is gripping the top of the right-hand driver's door, his left hand appears to be steering from the bottom of the steering wheel, in a right hander... let that be a warning... poor chap.

DCN

[Barry Lake]

I imagine Hans Etzrodt would have known of this one, but I don't remember having come across it before now. Surprising, perhaps, since it is significant for the fact that it is claimed to be the first death of a driver in a motor race in Italy.

10 September 1900, Coppa Brescia, Attilio Caffarati, racing driver was killed.

[Barry Lake]

I'd love to some day see David McKinney's files.

Where do you get all this information, David?

And how do you store it so you can retrieve it so readily?

[David McKinney]

I've been making notes under various headings for more than 40 years. A good proportion of those notes have been transferred to computer files, so are instantly accessible. Other items ring a bell, such as "wasn't that in a 1956 copy of Modern Motor?", which make it relatively simple to dig out. Increasingly however, and I am assured by no means uniquely, other matters ring bells so faint I don't know where to begin to look...
In the TNF context, some questions are raised that I know I can instantly answer. Others I think I could probably find given sufficient time (which I don't always have). And of course many others are of little interest to me, and I happily leave to others better qualified than me, or with better databases

What a sad life I have lived

[Barry Boor]

What a sad life I have lived

Don't worry, David, it's no more or less sad than the lives of quite a large number of other old b*****s on this forum!!!!

[fines]

Originally posted by Barry Boor


Don't worry, David, it's no more or less sad than the lives of quite a large number of other old b*****s on this forum!!!!

no doubt...

[Doug Nye]

Here's three of them.....

DCN

[Barry Lake]

Would our lives have been less 'sad' if we'd spent all that time at the pub, downing jugs of beer, telling tall stories and arguing about football?