40 replies to this topic

[former champ]

Okay, this may or probably should be in Nostalgia but it still is pretty recent so I thought I'd put it here. If it needs to be moved, please do so.

Now, I was just going through some old F1 magazines (various types) that I've collected over the years and found an old article which spoke about Jacques Villeneuve and Ferrari. It mentioned that at some stage a few years back JV had smoothed out differences with Ferrari's management (I imagine for whatever reason there was tension between the two parties......) and that it paved the way for a possible move to the Scuderia at a later date. (the article mentioned it likely after Schumacher retired, it specualted that would be 2003 or so, so they were a bit off!)

My question is this : Was there ever, at all, any chance of Villeneuve ever joining the team at any stage during his career? From what I've heard over the years, there were discussions between JV and Ferrari prior to him entering F1 but he rejected the offer as it meant he had to be test driver for one year (1996) and then he went to Williams. Another was that he had discussions with many teams around 98/99, of which Ferrari was included. Of course we know he re-signed with BAR and sent his career nowhere but does anyone know if he ever had serious discussions with Ferrari at all?

We know about his career decisions, BAR disaster, lack of motivation post 2002 etc so if we can, keep this discussion purely about JV and Ferrari. I know Villeneuve divides opinion but lets keep it civil. I was a huge fan of Gilles and have followed JV over the years and thought he was a great driver during his prime so, naturally, I'm curious.

Anyone know anything?

[Clatter]

Unless MS had left Ferrari I don't think there was ever any realistic chance of him joining them.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by former champ
It mentioned that at some stage a few years back JV had smoothed out differences with Ferrari's management (I imagine for whatever reason there was tension between the two parties......) and that it paved the way for a possible move to the Scuderia at a later date.

Anyone know anything?

JV's and Ferrari's relationships were very sour in the late 90s. The feud originated from the usual mind games between MS and Williams drivers and culminated in the Jerez 97 crash. JV openly criticized MS for having support drivers, his driving tactics etc. etc. and said he never wanted to drive for them while MS was there, because the 2nd driver would be put in such a position that there was no fighting chance. After JV was sacked from BAR and temporarily out of drive, he was in the end willing to make the Ferrari move and tried to smoothen out their relationship. But it was in vain, there never was any interest from Ferrari side to hire him.

[former champ]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
After JV was sacked from BAR and temporarily out of drive, he was in the end willing to make the Ferrari move and tried to smoothen out their relationship. But it was in vain, there never was any interest from Ferrari side to hire him.

was it that late in the piece though? I was under the impression Villeneuve had issues with Todt and Di Montezemolo which may have (according to what I've read) been smoothed over around 01/02 time. So well before Jacques time at BAR came to an end. Obviously by that stage Ferrari had little interest in him and he was damaged goods to an extent. Earlier on though? Not sure.

[Big Block 8]

I'm pretty sure that's how it went in general, I don't remember the specific dates though. JV's attitude change towards Ferrari (and MS) depends on the date his relationship and future with BAR really started cracking up.

[JForce]

Ferrari were never interested in JVi. After signing MS, they never needed to be vaguely interested. He was the complete opposite of MS, and whilst some people may like that, Ferrari aren't amongst that group.

[former champ]

Originally posted by JForce
Ferrari were never interested in JVi. After signing MS, they never needed to be vaguely interested. He was the complete opposite of MS, and whilst some people may like that, Ferrari aren't amongst that group.

Fair enough but, in all honesty, I'd say there was some sort of interest at some point. Whether that's before his F1 career started or during, I'm not sure obviously. Given there has been murmurs over the years involving various points (as I mentioned above) concerning JV and Ferrari, to say they were never interested in JV is somewhat misleading. Obviously the relationship hasn't been great over the years, why that is is what makes me curious.

[primer]

Originally posted by former champ
Anyone know anything?

One can only speculate.

I can accept that there were approaches made, by either side, perhaps even some negotiations. It is prudent to do that, if only to collect some intelligence on what is happening in the driver market, and where possible use this 'option' to get best possible terms when re-signing your current or another new driver.

Vice versa too.

[JForce]

Think about it. JVi was a Williams driver from what, 1995 (the year before he debuted of course). Ferrari had only just signed JT to come in and manage them, so that's when any serious discussion around who to hire would have been.

MS was the obvious choice, and the one they took. I can't see them even looking at JVi at that time, based on his iron-clad Williams agreement.

So it would only have been a possibility around the time that the whole BAR thing came crashing down, and by then he was shithouse and Ferrari wouldn't touch him with a 10ft pole.

The only time Ferrari would have ever considered him would be right at the start, at the same time they were looking at Schumacher. And you'd always pick a 2 time WC over the rookie (right Ron?)

I just don't think any of the timing works out. I think it was like the JVi to McLaren rumours etc....something that JVi fans said over and over in hope, until eventually they started to believe these contacts had actually happened.

[former champ]

Fair enough JForce, you make some good points. and yes, by the end of 03, there was no way Ferrari were touching Villeneuve and that was really his own fault, no on else's.

One thing I will add (as you mentioned the McLaren rumours) is that where there is smoke, there is fire. Even being a fan, you generally don't mention a possible move unless you have heard it enough times. To be fair, there were extensive rumours regarding JV and McLaren (also Renault) for many years, generally 98-00. I'd be surprised if they are totally and utterly false and no negotiations ever took place. Given also that's when he was in his prime as a driver and highly sought after.

Ferrari though, that's a different matter.

[MortenF1]

There was some rumours atleast in 2002 I think, when people were waiting for Barrichello's contract extension to be announced.

I don't know how serious McLaren was about him, but there was a window in 2000 to have a new driver as DC only had a one-year contract (If memory serves; one year with options on McLaren's side).

Renault/Benetton seemed to cast their net his way though, but he continued with B-A-R.

[Mox]

Originally posted by JForce
I can't see them even looking at JVi at that time, based on his iron-clad Williams agreement.

I can see your point, but this is a VILLENEUVE we're talking about here.

Take a look at the current top Open Wheel racing series, and you'll see a Rosberg, a Schumacher, a Piquet, a Senna, a Winkelhock, a Nakajima, a Fittipaldi, a Lauda, a Scheckter and a Prost.

And that is just looking at F1, GP2 and A1GP.

I think it is fairly safe to say, that Ferrari would have been looking very carefully at Gilles' son from the first time he sat in a race car. Choosing to sign him is a different story, but I'm quite sure, that whoever managed Ferrari at the time had NO doubts about the qualities (or lack thereof) of Jacques.

[lustigson]

Somewhat off-topic, but I've often wondered if Senna had lived, and might have joined Ferrari in 1996 in stead of Michael Schumacher, maybe Bernie could have persuaded the Scuderia to run Jacques Villeneuve alongside the Brazilian. That way Villeneuve could have learned the trade - although he really didn't need to, judging from his 1996 season at Williams - from the master - who, by then would have at least been a four-time champion, I reckon.

Originally posted by Mox
... a Fittipaldi...

Which Fittipaldi is that? Surely you don't mean Christian? He's 38 by now. Maybe one of Emerson's sons, Jayson or Luca?

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by former champ


was it that late in the piece though? I was under the impression Villeneuve had issues with Todt and Di Montezemolo which may have (according to what I've read) been smoothed over around 01/02 time. So well before Jacques time at BAR came to an end. Obviously by that stage Ferrari had little interest in him and he was damaged goods to an extent. Earlier on though? Not sure.

Dunno about Jean Todt, but relations with Luca were indeed very cordial around this time. Tensions between parties were smoothed out with the help of Montreal native, Gino Rosato ( head of logistics at Ferrari ). Rosato, who befriended JV, helped smooth out relations between them.

[whitewaterMkII]

I don't believe that JVi ever had a serious shot at Ferrari, and I doubt Ferrari ever considered him at all very early on. JVi showed gobs of talent in CART, against what was then a fairly strong field, if Ferrari was ever interested, that's when they would have snatched him, and I don't remember a peep about it. It was pretty obvious he was going to F1 eventually, and I think Frank followed CART more than most think, he already had JVi in his camp before Ferrari even switched on the tube to watch a CART race. Once MS was in at Ferrari, with their pretty obvious set up to get him the best of what he wanted and damn the # 2 car and driver, there was no way JVi, or any other top flight driver, got even a glance from Maranello.

[hermitkid]

If JV hadn't been such an idiot and antogonized Schumacher any chance he got it may have been a possibility when he left Williams.

[Clare]

Originally posted by former champ

My question is this : Was there ever, at all, any chance of Villeneuve ever joining the team at any stage during his career? From what I've heard over the years, there were discussions between JV and Ferrari prior to him entering F1 but he rejected the offer as it meant he had to be test driver for one year (1996) and then he went to Williams. Another was that he had discussions with many teams around 98/99, of which Ferrari was included. Of course we know he re-signed with BAR and sent his career nowhere but does anyone know if he ever had serious discussions with Ferrari at all?

Kuckst du hier...

;)

[TIPO61]

Well at least we know what would have happened.

One of them was part of the solution.
The other was part of the problem.

Schumacher showed his 'stuff' and so did Jacques.
The equation calls for FAR more than just driving ability.

It always has.
It always will.

[former champ]

Originally posted by cheesy poofs


Dunno about Jean Todt, but relations with Luca were indeed very cordial around this time. Tensions between parties were smoothed out with the help of Montreal native, Gino Rosato ( head of logistics at Ferrari ). Rosato, who befriended JV, helped smooth out relations between them.

Now that makes sense. I remember there being someone, as you mentioned Rosato, helping out with this and being the link between the two. What I want to know is, why were things so cool between Luca/anyone else at Ferrari and Villeneuve? I take that it all stems from a while back.....

[former champ]

Originally posted by Clare


Kuckst du hier...

;)

Nice. Yep I remember those rumours, I knew it was around 02/03 time. I think if you even asked Bernie now, JV in a Ferrari up against Schumacher would have been a dream for him. Take JV at his best up against the irrepressible Schumacher in the same car, you have the closest thing to Senna/Prost of recent times.

Of course Villeneuve beating Schuey over a season would be mighty tough, even at his best, but for sure there would have been fireworks of the kind we haven't seen for ages.....

[MortenF1]

Had they been team-mates pre groove tires I think it would've been very interesting.
They both made a rather uncomfortable amount of mistakes though.

[former champ]

I think anytime during Villeneuve's best years 96-01 or so, him taking on Schumacher would have given us some spectacular wheel to wheel racing. 1997 should have been the very beginning of a long running rivalry, alas.... :

I'd still like to know just what the beef was between Luca and Jacques. Seems that (and MS being there) shot down any chance of him ever racing for Ferrari.

One thing I've always wondered, had Enzo still been alive and at the helm, would Jacques have started straight out in a Ferrari? I'm guessing chances would have been far greater.

[Galko877]

This is interesting because I remember MS once mentioning Ferrari DID offer a contract to JV! I wish I had saved that interview because for some kind of reason the media didn't really pick it up (maybe because it didn't fit in the image of the "coward" MS who vetoes strong teammates?) but I thought it was pretty interesting.

It was a couple of years ago. MS was asked why he never allowed a good teammate on his side and he said that is simply a myth. As an example he mentioned Ferrari did try to sign both JV and DC as his teammate (I think at the end of 1996) and it was never he who vetoed that but those two turned down the offer. I also remember the next week DC was asked about it and he admitted it was true. I have never heard a comment from JV on it though.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Galko877
This is interesting because I remember MS once mentioning Ferrari DID offer a contract to JV! I wish I had saved that interview because for some kind of reason the media didn't really pick it up (maybe because it didn't fit in the image of the "coward" MS who vetoes strong teammates?) but I thought it was pretty interesting.

It was a couple of years ago. MS was asked why he never allowed a good teammate on his side and he said that is simply a myth. As an example he mentioned Ferrari did try to sign both JV and DC as his teammate (I think at the end of 1996) and it was never he who vetoed that but those two turned down the offer. I also remember the next week DC was asked about it and he admitted it was true. I have never heard a comment from JV on it though.

You're right. Both JV and DC were offered the second Ferrari seat at some moment, but I cannot remember the year.

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by former champ


Now that makes sense. I remember there being someone, as you mentioned Rosato, helping out with this and being the link between the two. What I want to know is, why were things so cool between Luca/anyone else at Ferrari and Villeneuve? I take that it all stems from a while back.....

I would say it was just the intensity of the battle between JV and MS that left sour grapes.

On a side note. I can add that Jacques' mother, Joann, spent the whole weekend in Ferrari's pit during this year's ( 2007 ) Canadian GP, as a guest of Ferrari. In fact, there is still one mechanic working with the team that used to work on her late husband's car.

[MortenF1]

Ferrari approached DC in '98, and at that time the rumour-mill said that Schumacher had veto-ed it. Who knows...
DC himself contacted Todt or Brawn at the end of 2004 about testing for them, and around Silverstone last year there was again talk about Ferrari evaluating DC(Autosport's print edition had a little piece on it). DC smiled at it, Todt denied it. In other words both acted as you'd expect them to.

Right now I can't say I remember anything about DC and Ferrari back in '96.

[former champ]

Originally posted by cheesy poofs


I would say it was just the intensity of the battle between JV and MS that left sour grapes.

On a side note. I can add that Jacques' mother, Joann, spent the whole weekend in Ferrari's pit during this year's ( 2007 ) Canadian GP, as a guest of Ferrari. In fact, there is still one mechanic working with the team that used to work on her late husband's car.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for that bit of info.

[alesifan46]

When Ferrari found out about JV's "flitch throttle" operation done to his leg...they pretty much turned their sights to other drivers!! they realized they would be getting "used" goods!!

[themark]

Up until the above post, I was enjoying an intelligent conversation. Crawl back under your rock Alesifan

[former champ]

Originally posted by lustigson
Somewhat off-topic, but I've often wondered if Senna had lived, and might have joined Ferrari in 1996 in stead of Michael Schumacher, maybe Bernie could have persuaded the Scuderia to run Jacques Villeneuve alongside the Brazilian. That way Villeneuve could have learned the trade - although he really didn't need to, judging from his 1996 season at Williams - from the master - who, by then would have at least been a four-time champion, I reckon.

Have to say that, had Senna lived, I think this is exactly what would have happened. Schumacher most likely would have been at, what was then, Williams Renault and Ayrton would have been racing for Ferrari which apparantly was what he wanted after 2 years at Williams. Villeneuve slotted in alongside Senna would have been a great pairing for them. Just thinking about it frustrates me that, for many reasons of course, it never happened. :

[pUs]

Originally posted by alesifan46
When Ferrari found out about JV's "flitch throttle" operation done to his leg...they pretty much turned their sights to other drivers!! they realized they would be getting "used" goods!!

Oh yeah. The legendary flich throttle technique!

...JV is preparing his flich throttle technique, you heard it hear first, the flich throttle technique was invented by Senna, and when Senna tested a kart, JV was there, they talked, and Senna gave the gille son some tips, JV had a operation on his throttle leg last year, he didn't reveal this to everyone, but he did, this was why he's been slow, he's almost recovered, and I expect his speed of 1997 to return, don't be surprised if he outqualfies Massa in Monaco, the flich throttle technique is gonna be his weapon.

[former champ]

funnily enough, IIRC, he did outpace Massa that weekend in Monaco back in 05 and began a good run of form which started at Imola. That technique did wonders.

[pUs]

Originally posted by former champ


funnily enough, IIRC, he did outpace Massa that weekend in Monaco back in 05 and began a good run of form which started at Imola. That technique did wonders.

Yeah, perhaps it did. A shame he stopped using it later though, by the look of it

[former champ]

Originally posted by pUs


Yeah, perhaps it did. A shame he stopped using it later though, by the look of it

nah, lets be realistic. He was still plenty quick in F1 the rest of 05 and first half of 06. At some races he was certainly the faster driver against Heidfeld. I'm still convinced Vileneuve in a top car would have been a force, some won't agree but I saw enough speed in various parts of 05 and 06 to show that.

Jacques' problem? He destroyed his reputation, he actually annihlated it, with the BAR saga. Not the first 3 years or so, then he actually enhanced his rep. What happened after that, with Richards coming in too and the team going backwards, killed his career in the eyes of every team owner that could offer him a fast car.

Unfortunately, for that, he can't blame anyone but himself. Such a shame and a waste for what was a great F1 racer at his best, no question. Wasted years.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by lustigson
Somewhat off-topic, but I've often wondered if Senna had lived, and might have joined Ferrari in 1996 in stead of Michael Schumacher, maybe Bernie could have persuaded the Scuderia to run Jacques Villeneuve alongside the Brazilian. That way Villeneuve could have learned the trade - although he really didn't need to, judging from his 1996 season at Williams - from the master - who, by then would have at least been a four-time champion, I reckon.

Senna would never had joined the uncompetitive 1996 Ferrari team. He always thought that only the best car was worthy being driven by him.

[riffola]

Senna would've run back to McLaren once Mercedes were onboard, I think.

I also remember Michael mentioning Jacques as someone Ferrari was looking to hire in the past, but again like others I don't remember the years involved.

[V8 Fireworks]

by 2003, the year with Button and Villenueve in the Geoff Willis BAR?, JV's reputation was already no longer strong. So the shame must have been turning down the deal to test drive for Ferrari in 96.

[pUs]

Originally posted by former champ


nah, lets be realistic. He was still plenty quick in F1 the rest of 05 and first half of 06. At some races he was certainly the faster driver against Heidfeld. I'm still convinced Vileneuve in a top car would have been a force, some won't agree but I saw enough speed in various parts of 05 and 06 to show that.

Yah, I agree. He actually looked quite good in the BMW in the first half of 06. Would have been cool to see what he could have done with it as it got better..

[former champ]

Originally posted by giacomo
Senna would never had joined the uncompetitive 1996 Ferrari team. He always thought that only the best car was worthy being driven by him.

It's been said though that the exact deal which took MS to Maranello was supposed to be offered to Senna first. From what I've read, he was going to take it. He wanted to finish his career at Ferrari.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by former champ


It's been said though that the exact deal which took MS to Maranello was supposed to be offered to Senna first. From what I've read, he was going to take it. He wanted to finish his career at Ferrari.

With all due respect to Senna, Ferrari got a better deal with Schumacher in 1996 than if they had signed Senna at the time (if he hadn't died, of course). Senna would have been 36 in 1996, a driver intending to finish his career there, not a young gun with plenty of time to build up something...

[giacomo]

Originally posted by former champ

It's been said though that the exact deal which took MS to Maranello was supposed to be offered to Senna first. From what I've read, he was going to take it. He wanted to finish his career at Ferrari.

So you are saying that Ferrari offered a 1996 deal to Senna who just had joined Williams in early 1994? And he accepted it, after two Williams races max?

Difficult to believe.