1324 replies to this topic

[T54]

The 50cc Bultaco began as the project of two Dutch enthusiasts, as a Piovaticci.

Text and pictures Courtesy of http://elsberg-tuning.dk/1975.html, a very good site:

"When Jan Thiel and Martin Mijwaart dropped the Jamathi and moved to Piovaticci, at last they got some money for building racing motorcycles, instead of paying for everything themselves. The new bike of course looked a lot like the old Jamathi, with a stainless steel monocoque frame and the one Koni rear shock absorber, Ceriani front forks and cast wheels by Ringhini. Tyre sizes 2.00-18 front, 2.25-18 rear. Also reminiscent of the Jamathi was the engine with the horizontal cylinder (see Piovaticci2). Bore and stroke were 40 x 39 mm, for a capacity of 49.0 cc. Compression ratio 15 : 1, carburettor 28 mm Mikuni. Claimed power was 17 bhp at 16,000 rpm. This was no doubt a very modest claim - in practice the bikes were maybe even faster that the Van Veen Kreidler, and on several occasions Lazzarini was able to grab pole position. Picture Piovaticci3 shows Jan Thiel (foreground) and Martin Mijwaart working on the bike."








After that, they moved to Bultaco and Nieto won the title with it.
Regards,

T54
PS: there is en error in the text: the wheels were not made by Ringhini but by Campagnolo on a design by Morbidelli. However anyone could purchase these wheels and Campagnolo sold lots of them in both 2" X 18" (50cc size) and 2.75" X 18" (125cc size).

You can see some on my own ex-works Morbidelli 125cc currently in a museum in Los Angeles:

[Russell Burrows]

1963 pic of a new CR 110. I think this was raced by Charlie Mates who was a good 50's riders of the 1960's.

[50cc racer]

A German racer Gerhard Singer drove this bike in 82 GP´s, a Bultaco modified to Kreidler power.




50cc racer

[50cc racer]

T54, there seems to be some confusing issues regarding MBA - Motori Benelli Armi and Morbidelli.
The bikes looks identical, maybe different engines?





50cc racer

[T54]

Morbidelli had Joerg Muller design and engineer the 1975 to 1977 world championship-winning 125cc and 250cc bikes. Giancarlo Morbidelli then sold a licence to Benelli Armi to manufacture production racers based on the 3-transfers 36HP engines, with a copy of the works frames and parts. The resulting product was called Morbidelli-Benelli-Armi or MBA. But things went bad when one of the works mechanics defected to MBA with the factory secrets, and things went even worse when Muller and world champ Pier-Paolo Bianchi were suddenly fired and both joined MBA.

The ensuing war was not pretty, but from the basic 1977 MBA production racers (50cc and 125cc), every following MBA's were no longer a product of an affiliation.
Morbidelli had his revenge when MBA went bankrupt in the mid 1980's and he was able to acquire a pair of 125 and 250 MBA's for his museum as damages.

I arrived at Morbidelli in 1977 just at the time of this in-house disaster to fullfill a contract regarding a 250cc with advanced features. That new bike, built secretly in California and after hours at the... Kawasaki R&D facility and unbeknown of anyone there except one person, was developed and tested with Graziano Rossi as a driver. New aerodynamics, new frame with re-distribution of weight, new front-end with built-in anti-dive, fuel tank below and on front of the engine... all in all too many new things, so only part of them worked well. Once redesigned with a few more conventional items fitted, Rossi had a good bike, but the Kawasaki inline twins had more power, so Rossi won only three GP's but finished third in points to Ballington and Hansford, despite that Hansford had zero wins but was very consistent.
Problem is, at the time I had other things to do so I neglected the project once delivered and simply could not make it advance. My regret today.

T54

A German racer Gerhard Singer drove this bike in 82 GP´s, a Bultaco modified to Kreidler power.

I think that it is a copy of a Piovaticci/Bultaco but is not an actual Bultaco.

[50cc racer]

Well, that really was an inside story, so to speak, of the Morbidelli/ MBA relationship.

You are partly right, when assuming this Bultaco- Kreidler of Gerhard Singer is a copy.
The frame was made by Tavi, the Bultaco- mechanic of Ricardo Tormo in 1982.
A very nice bike.



50cc racer

[50cc racer]

No. 24: who may that be and what kind of bike is he driving?





50cc racer

[T54]

It's Lee Allen on a Ducati, hopelessly out-powered by everyone. But he finished in the points and got... one.
#10 is Jean-Pierre Beltoise (Kreidler 12-speed). #1 is Hugh Anderson (Suzuki 8-speed). #7 is Tarqinio Provini (Kreidler 12-speed). #2 is Hans Ancheidt (Kreidler 12-speed). #5 is Isaoh Morishita (Suzuki 8-speed). #4 is Mitsuo Itoh (Suzuki 8-speed). #6 is Luigi Taveri (Suzuki 8-speed).
Now I feel like Doug Nye!

[Bjorn Kjer]

Taveri on a Kreidler eh ?

Allthough not on the "regular" threads , highly interesting ! Thanks guys!

[Paul Rochdale]

I compliment you Gentlemen, what an amazingly interesting thread. Now George Ashton, there's a name from the past. Was it he who raced apart from the Honda 50, a tuned road-engined Suzuki/Yamaha/Honda? I know it a bit vague but I can recall this tiny home-built special from the 1960s. Did Fred Launchbury, famous for his very fast Bantams, ride in 50s?

[50cc racer]

T54:

It's Lee Allen on a Ducati, hopelessly out-powered by everyone.

"Hopelessly outpowered by everyone" - the exact feeling i experience every time i enter my supercharged Honda against 15- 18hp Kreidlers

Could that Ducati be anything but a two- stroke sports moped?

[50cc racer]

Just to put some dates into the Jan Thiel/ Martin Mijwaart monocoque- racers:

1973: The first monocoque Jamathi



1975: The Piovaticci



1976: The Bultaco



1982: The Garelli



Jan Thiel just recently retired from Aprilia, leaving a big impression in the records:

"I was trying to beat Kreidler with first Bultaco and later Minarelli and Garelli until the most beautiful class, the 50cc, was abandoned, a great pity. After that I have worked for Garelli, Rumi, Derbi and Aprilia until I retired two weeks ago. The machines I worked on have won a total of 46 between riders- and constructors worldchampionships winning a total of 287 GP's in 50cc, 125cc and 250cc. But my best memories are about 50cc racing where you could achieve good results, even with modest means."

50cc racer

[ESSEXBOY]

what a great thread
the 50cc class was surely the purest formula,
the challenge to get the last ounce of performance from just 50cc must be the ultimate engineering challenge...

i wonder what power output could be achieved using todays advanced materials and computerised tooling........

i can still remember the fantastic display of Nieto's ex-race bikes at the first ever Motogp meeting at Valencia's Circuito Ricardo Tormo in 1999.

[50cc racer]

I compliment you Gentlemen, what an amazingly interesting thread. Now George Ashton, there's a name from the past. Was it him who raced apart from the Honda 50, a tuned road-engined Suzuki/Yamaha/Honda? I know it a bit vague but I can recall this tiny home-built special from the 50s.

In a 67 long- distance race? George Ashton shared a Suzuki with Chris Walpole.
George Ashton made it big driving the Italian/Dutch Garelli. In 69 he won 32 races out of 35 entered!



Could you be thinking of Frank Whiteway who raced the TR50 Suzuki production- racer?

[Paul Rochdale]

No, the bike I'm thinking of was an extensively modified 50cc Japanese road bike, a special, tuned by Woolley, and raced successfully in the UK in the 1960s. I just can't think of the rider's name but it'll come to me. I just thought it was a marvel of engineering and enginuity. Clearly not Ashton then.

[50cc racer]

Taveri on a Kreidler eh ?

Kreidler did hire Taveri and Provini for the 64 season. Both drivers complained heavily of the cumbersome 12speed transmission, and Taveri later recalled the move to Kreidler as his worst decission ever!






50cc racer

[50cc racer]

Now I get it

You must of course be thinking of the Brian Wooley- built Yamaha. It was only in last October I saw this bike in the now- closed Motormuseum Lexmond, complete with its svingarm- mounted Gomatic two- speed reduction box.
Thus the (what was the designation of this Yamaha engine) 4- speed became an eight speed.

I believe the driver was Trevor Burgess?






50cc racer

[T54]

I drove the Kreidler 12-speed loaned by the works to Claude Vigreux several times and I had no problem with the shifting of the 12 gears. True that Provini simply could not cope with it, and Luigi was not so keen about it either. But if you began life on a 3-speed Peugeot BB Sport as I did with the cable-actuated shifter on the left hand, then progressed to a 5-speed Derbi with the foot-shifter, you never had any such problem with the Kreidler!

[50cc racer]

Agostini is talking to ?



50cc racer

[50cc racer]

Who races this 50cc dustbin- fared bike ?




50cc racer

[fazz]

Originally posted by 50cc racer
I need help to identify this British? rider



50cc racer

HI GANG I AM SURE IT IS HUGHIE McIVOR

[fazz]

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Agostini is talking to ?



50cc racer

IS AGO TALKING TO GILBERTO PARLOTTI

[T54]

Nope, not Parlotti, but Alberto Ieva.
By the way, please note that the gentleman on the right is Giancarlo Morbidelli himself. Picture taken in 1970, probably at Misano.

[Bernard]

Remember the 50cc Maserati, I saw one in Comerfords and next day when I went to buy it some ******* had beaten me to it

http://www.maserati-...ington-020a.jpg

[Herr Wankel]

Hello Guys,
Its definitely Hughie McIvor from Stalybridge,and he's an ulsterman originally,hence the logos.I know its him as I also raced a CR110 against him at Darley Moor.He was the last person to race a CR in the UK at least.The Woolley bike mentioned could be the Woolley-Bone special (Andy Bone Notts) Loosely based on an Itom but low and long not unlike the Garelli ridden by Stuart Aspin and George Ashton.George it was who rode the W-B special.
The Herr

[T54]

That's just as well because if indeed it was pretty, it was also very slow and handled like a wet noodle. Any bike fitted with a 3 or 4-speed Franco-Morini engine (and there were a plethora of those...) would clean its clock.
Of course if you had bought it and kept it, the Maserati freaks would pay you a king's ransom for it today...

[Herr Wankel]

Before I forget,yes Trevor B. rode the Woolley Yam,And then I think Mick Warne,but I no no idea about the transmission.There was a Garelli about around the same time with an 8(or possibly more)speed gearbox.The bike was quite'normal' looking not a GP lookalike as the Agrati-Garelli was.
Herr (today)

[50cc racer]

Herr Wankel
Its definitely Hughie McIvor from Stalybridge,and he's an ulsterman originally,hence the logos.I know its him as I also raced a CR110 against him at Darley Moor.He was the last person to race a CR in the UK at least.

What year did you race against Hughie McIvor ? Did you race other 50cc bikes than the Honda?


Who, what, and where might this be?



50cc racer

[picblanc]

Originally posted by fazz
HI GANG I AM SURE IT IS HUGHIE McIVOR

Bloody hell Mark...nice one!! The MCN sticker indicates early 1970's 71/72?
Stalybridge ehh!! I know it well, now known as Stalyvegas coz of the night clubs (piece of useless info there Graham!! )

[T54]

Who, what, and where might this be?

That's the 50cc MZ. It ran only a few times in 1963 because with only 11HP it was too slow.


Picture courtesy Classic Motorrad

I believe that the driver was Werner Musiol.

T54

[50cc racer]

Youre right again T54!
Except pictured driver is Walther Brehme.
MZ didnt get a second chance to develop the fifty, because of an obligation made to the Simson factory.
MZ did motorbikes and Simson took care of the moped/scooter market.
A sad story really, I´m sure Walther Kaaden could have made something out of the fifty.

Another one:




50cc racer

[T54]

That's an Itom or a Benelli. The brakes, shocks, fork say "Itom". The tank, seat and fairing say "bitza"... and obviuosly from the flag, the guy is a Brit...

[50cc racer]

Itom yes - did you say Brit or Bill?

Bitza!

Here´s a lot of bitza!



Warning: I really dont know any of these drivers!


50cc racer

[T54]

Could be Bill Ivy on the Itom.
The color pick shows racers in 1961 at Assen? Lots of Zundapp, Benelli, a Motom? Hard to tell. As far as the riders, I am afraid that their names are lost forever.

[50cc racer]

Bill Ivy it is.

The coloured picture from 66 shows the start of the beginners class, in East- germany.
I believe that nr5 and 13 are Simson framed.

Great picture - although I´m not really sure if its a podium or a grave in the background


Who gets a firm hand here?






50cc racer

[T54]

Angel having an argument with a backmarker at Jerez?
I don't have a clue.

[dbw]

essexboy..to answer the modern technology and what could it do for 50's.....the buddfab streamliner has dynoed [at the rear wheel] at 20 hp on gas ....26 on a nitro shot ...and a constant 26+hp with the tinest turbo on god's earth ..... they said while the hp is good the magic in lsr work is just where the power band is and where is the peak power in the band.

[GD66]

Just a guess, but the rider of the #19 machine could be Mike Simmonds, brother of Dave, so the bike could be a Tohatsu, although I have a feeling that before they played with Tohatsus they were Itom pedallers, and the megaphone exhaust would support this possibility. The lineup of the pushstart photo, with all the white pudding basins with black stripes, looks like a brochure for the All-German Roadrace Factory production line....

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by GD66
Just a guess, but the rider of the #19 machine could be Mike Simmonds, brother of Dave, so the bike could be a Tohatsu, although I have a feeling that before they played with Tohatsus they were Itom pedallers, and the megaphone exhaust would support this possibility. The lineup of the pushstart photo, with all the white pudding basins with black stripes, looks like a brochure for the All-German Roadrace Factory production line....

That´s cos it´s the old communist East Germany I would imagine, judging by the policeman´s uniform. There wasn´t a great variety of kit available in the local bike shop for those diehard racers, and the fans were just about the most enthusiastic this planet´s ever seen. They were grey times for the folk there, but they didn´t let politics interfer with their love of m/c racing.

[ESSEXBOY]

dbw thanks for that response
just been checking out the BUDDFAB 50cc LSR effort on

http://www.geocities...uddfab/buddfab3

what a great effort i need to get Bonneville speedweek before i die

[Herr Wankel]

Hi 50cc racer,
I raced the CR at Darley and Snetterton,in 72 I think.Before that I started on a Handa SS50 road bike,completely standard,and even rode it to the meetings with the mega exhaust slung rond my neck like a banjo!Last qualifier in my heat for a place in the UK 50cc championship round.In those days there were too many riders for just one 50 race at Darley,with a max of 24 riders on the grid.Great days.
The SS50 4 speed was a great bike but a bit too slow to keep up with most of the strokers,so I built a Garelli in my mums kitchen-bless her,with the Agrati race kit on it.£30 for a ported chrome lined barrel,cylinder head,carb(a baby Dellorto SS)and expansion box.It was only a 4 speed Monza road based bike so it to go.I had always lusted after a CR110,so eventually managed to get one.£250,yes 250,buts thats all they were worth then.

[50cc racer]

ex Rhodie racer:

That´s cos it´s the old communist East Germany I would imagine, judging by the policeman´s uniform. There wasn´t a great variety of kit available in the local bike shop for those diehard racers, and the fans were just about the most enthusiastic this planet´s ever seen. They were grey times for the folk there, but they didn´t let politics interfer with their love of m/c racing.

To back up this story just take a look at the Uhl-Stein racer:



A copy of the championship- winning Kreidler made in DDR by Ludwig Uhlig and Reiner Steinert without using a single Kreidler part!

50cc racer

[50cc racer]

Herr Wankel:

I raced the CR at Darley and Snetterton,in 72 I think.Before that I started on a Handa SS50 road bike,completely standard,and even rode it to the meetings with the mega exhaust slung rond my neck like a banjo!Last qualifier in my heat for a place in the UK 50cc championship round.In those days there were too many riders for just one 50 race at Darley,with a max of 24 riders on the grid.Great days.

Nice bikes all of them, easy to drive and not to peaky. Any chance of pictures from your races?

The SS50 engine started its life in 65 and is still in production, and by that it must be the most produced 50cc engine ever! And the most copied too!
Its rather long stroke (41,4x38mm) relates to the fact, that it was born a 65cc (41,4x44) but I can tell you that it has no problem revving past 15000rpm! That doesnt make it a racing engine, considering its main disadvantage: a dry weight of 18kgs - thats seven more than a watercooled Kreidler- engine!
Sounds a lot better though ;)



50cc racer

[Herr Wankel]

Hi 50cc racer,
Sadly no photos of my 50cc racing days,all lost during times of marital strife!!I will try to dig out a photo of the CR when I first bought it.I had one last fling with a CR110 in 1986 when I rode a borrowed one at Donnington Park in a parade of CR racers.Quite a few CR93s on the track,but I was on the only 110 out there.
Funny you should mention the 65cc.I had one on the road,a 1965 model,in red of course,number HCH 650C,I learnt how to ride properly on that little bike.
Incidentally,Brian Crighton (of JPS Norton rotary fame) started his career on a C110 and then fitted his own tuned SS50 mototor to it.At twisty circuits he could run with the CR110s.I bought this motor from him,it could run with with a YAS1 125cc Yamaha on the road

[Herr Wankel]

Before my brain fades completely,the Honda CR110 that Hughie McIvor rode was probably not only the last CR to be raced in the UK,but the 1st also.I believe it was the Val Knapp Honda ridden in the 1963 TT by Ian Plumridge to 6th place at nearly 65mph average.Not bad for a bike with a top whack of only 85mph.It differed from the regular production CR110s most noticibly by having the contact breaker driven by the inlet cam on the left(like the works singles) and not by its own gear driven shaft on the right front of the crankcase.
Any other CR110 'trivia' would be greatly appreciated.
The Herr

[Yendor]

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Youre right again T54!
Except pictured driver is Walther Brehme.
MZ didnt get a second chance to develop the fifty, because of an obligation made to the Simson factory.
MZ did motorbikes and Simson took care of the moped/scooter market.
A sad story really, I´m sure Walther Kaaden could have made something out of the fifty.

Another one:




50cc racer

I know that bike because it was me riding it! The frame was made by the Simmonds brothers and powered by an Itom engine. I purchased the complete bike from Dave. It was probably 1962 or '63, like most of us the memories not what it once was.

Rod

[50cc racer]

Herr Wankell:
Before my brain fades completely,the Honda CR110 that Hughie McIvor rode was probably not only the last CR to be raced in the UK,but the 1st also.I believe it was the Val Knapp Honda ridden in the 1963 TT by Ian Plumridge to 6th place at nearly 65mph average.Not bad for a bike with a top whack of only 85mph.It differed from the regular production CR110s most noticibly by having the contact breaker driven by the inlet cam on the left(like the works singles) and not by its own gear driven shaft on the right front of the crankcase.

There were other features to recognice.
The first batch of CR110´s to hit europe were 5-speeds, from there on 8-speeds were the rule.

50cc racer

[renzo]

Originally posted by Herr Wankel
Before my brain fades completely,the Honda CR110 that Hughie McIvor rode was probably not only the last CR to be raced in the UK,but the 1st also.I believe it was the Val Knapp Honda ridden in the 1963 TT by Ian Plumridge to 6th place at nearly 65mph average.Not bad for a bike with a top whack of only 85mph.It differed from the regular production CR110s most noticibly by having the contact breaker driven by the inlet cam on the left(like the works singles) and not by its own gear driven shaft on the right front of the crankcase.
Any other CR110 'trivia' would be greatly appreciated.



The Herr

val knapp scooters,theres a name i havent heard for a long time.
it was in dorking the next town along from mine.
i remember looking in the windows when the first honda's came out.
i so wanted a benly(i was 15 then).

[Herr Wankel]

Hi Renzo,
I always thought that Val Knapp was an american(only because someone told me that).Know what you mean about the Benly.A lad used to come to our youth club in the 60s on one.It had long megga's on it.I used to ache with desire for that bike.His mate had a YAL1 100cc yamaha with expansion chambers,that he made at tech college.At the same time my brother had a 1960 swinging arm Scott 600.With that lot around there was no hope for me,and I'm still cursed with motorcyclitis.
HW

[50cc racer]

Is this a Benly or Supercub?


50cc racer