65 was a later transmission essential a heavy duty version of the 4 speed type 45 but with only 3 speeds --- no big deal because the omitted 1st speed ratio was so short geared it was useless.

In the UK most BW applications of the 35,45 & 65 used a fluid-water heat exchanger in the bottom of the water rad.

The real odd ball was the BMC 1800 FWD which used a Morse Hy-Vo chain to drive a transverse type 35 built into sump casing.

This weeks set-back is brought to you by the letter F.

12 replacement cam followers are 1 thou too big....the originals are fairly tight (less then a thou?) but the replacements have been sent back :Shrug:

The old ones may just have to be re-faced.

I have a strong feeling that the 8 cylinder RR engine also went into exclusive "heads of state" Phantom somethings-or-other.
And I have seen one in a fire engine at Loxton's Pioneer Village (River Murray - what's left of it..). Hope the Queen didn't know about this less than glorious application for the Royal Carriage power unit.

Don't the Poms do it so very well though .. the other power unit which has other lives is the Standard Vanguard 4, which spawned a diesel version/Fergie tractor/Triumph Herald (un-sanforised, shrunk in the wash Vanguard) ... add 2 cylinders to this and you somehow get the 1500 Vitesse, make it a bit bigger to get the Triumph 2.5 blah blah blah ..

I am reliably informed!!! that!! 70% of MGC parts production ended up in CONUS...I sincerely hope that US suppliers are not having the same quality problems that we have found :\

Actually not quite any of the above, the Rolls Royce B60 was based on the RR Silver Wraith engine which was the last car engine RR developed pre WW2 it ran until the V8 Silver Cloud II appeared in in 1959. The V8 was based on Cadillac technology but both RR and GM kept quiet about this.
The straight 8 B80 was only used in military vehicles and some specialist fire tenders mainly based on the Alvis Sarracen, the light alloy block B81 was the one used the Dennis fire appliance.


The Ferguson tractor didn't use the Standard Vanguard engine -- actually it was the other way about the Standard Vanguard and all the TRs up to the TR4A used the Ferguson tractor engine which Standard Triumph made under contract for Ferguson. When Massey Ferguson started building tractors in the UK Standard Triumph lost the contract to produce the tractor and its engine, so had to produce the Vanguard 6.
The Herald engine was a Standard Triumph design with no real resemblence to the Ferguson engine which was wet liner, but if you look carefully you will see similarities with the pre/post war OHV Jaguar engine and indeed the Jaguar XK engine which were based on the Standard side valve six cylinder engine.

Engine is back from the shop....new cam followers sent back as one thou oversize So the reconditioner just faced up the old ones which were still fairly tight in the bores.

Overdrive



Engine







Next problem...garage access is open to other family members and one may have moved the alternator bracket from its safe spot! Does anyone know if the bracket off another product would pass a CdeE inspection?? eg Austin Freeway, Kimberley etc

The end...thanks to all for your help.

Couldn't it be said that they all had some similarities to the pushrod Jag engine?

And when did Ferguson tractors come into being? The Vanguard was in production in 1947 or something. A couple of other points that need clarifying... the tractor block was nothing like the block used in the cars as it had tractor chassis detail cast into it. Sure, the internals and the head were alike, but not the block.

As for them 'having to produce the Vanguard 6'... I can't see that being right at all. The TR4 was produced well into the sixties with the four cylinder engine, so Ferguson clearly didn't prevent them continuing to produce it. The Vanguard 6 first appeared in the late fifties, so there was considerable overlap. Of course the Vanguard 6 was an extended version of the four that started life in the Standard 8.

Thanks for posting those photos, Mick... I'm more convinced than ever that the engine shown has no family ties to the B-series six of the Freeway... and it doesn't look to share any parts with the C-series six either, though internals could have been used.

FWIW, the block is obviously different externally, particularly on the left side, the head is different, the rocker cover is different, the timing cover is different. Not sure about the water pump, but even the plate on the back of the block is different.

Did we ever find out what the bore and stroke are?

Well..after a little head scratching over some dodgey wiring...and a lot of checking of the timing...(bloody HT leads bite!!)......eventually she went vrooom vrooom...detail stuff now like a solid state dissy etc V Happy

Ohhhh myyyyy gaaawdddd....just drove the C for a few miles....what a fabulous machine...a true Grand Tourer, everything with a minimum of fuss (to quote CAPT Bristow)

First teething problem...running on

Things to do...

If a dose of higher octane fuel doesn’t cure the running-on problem…maybe a small amount of Methanol or AVGAS?? Just to see if it is octane related??

Is it possible that the engine has an even higher compression ratio than original?? Don't know if they cc'd the combustion chambers...maybe the new pistons higher tops than original??

Maybe we need a different heat range plug than original?

Otherwise, incremental experimenting with distributor settings may be the only cure??

If by "running on" you mean the same thing I do -- "dieseling" after the ignition is shut off -- usually that indicates that for some reason the engine is getting too much air at idle. It's not really a spark timing issue, though it can often be fixed on that route in back-door fashion.

Throttle open ---> too much air ---> venturi drawing fuel = engine runs on after shut off. You have fuel and air, and apparently you also have ignition so the engine tries to keep running... but not due to detonation (how could it be?) so it's not a timing or compression issue. The ignition source is preignition: a hot spot in the chambers. Most typically, the ground strap on the spark plug. Is the plug the correct heat range? Or a bit of the fire ring on the head gasket is protruding into the cylinder...or there is a sharp edge on a new exhaust valve or in the chamber... in which case the run-on will go away in time, or maybe it won't. But if the air is shut off when the engine is shut off, it can't run on.

Is the engine idling at the correct speed? On some '60s cars, even 100 rpm over spec can produce run-on. (For example, a small vacuum leak.) Is the car equipped with an idle speed solenoid or other form of two-step idle system? (That's what these devices are for, largely.) If so, is it installed and adjusted correctly?

If all that is squared away, it may be that due to one or more factors, the throttle blade(s) must be adjusted excessively open to maintain a given idle speed. That could indeed be due to incorrect spark advance at idle, or a carb idle circuit problem. Experiment: if you turn down the idle until the throttle plate(s) is completely closed and the run-on goes away, you have eliminated most of the esoteric causes for run-on and have a simple tuneup issue.

McGwaar...very much appreciated

These engines are not common and therefore we need to be careful with a newly overhauled unit, your advice is an eye opener

How badly does the engine run on? Does it just motor around three or four turns or will it sit there and rattle on for a half minute if you let it? While it sounds very damaging, it's nowhere near as dangerous as full-on detonation or preignition because the pressures are so low. Still, it's embarrassing and there is no need to have to put up with it.

As I suggested, back off the throttle stop all the way until the throttle is completely closed, then start the engine and idle it by hand/foot. When you manually allow the throttle to close to let the engine die, does it simply come to a stop (as it should) or does it run on? There is your clue. Sometimes the problem can be as simple as sticking carb or throttle linkage or a weak throttle spring.

...many cars of that approximate era, especially American, had an "idle stop solenoid" to prevent dieseling. Looks just like an A/C idle solenoid except it is wired to the ignition switch instead of in parallel with the A/C clutch. With the solenoid energized (ignition on) the idle speed adjustment is say 750 rpm (via wrench boss on the solenoid plunger). With the solenoid unplugged the idle adjustment (at carb throttle stop screw) is perhaps 550 or 600 rpm. When the ignition is turned off, current to the solenoid is cut off and idle speed/throttle opening reverts to the lower setting to prevent run-on.

Twin SUs, no idle stop solenoid..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/9Ya.../SV300045-1.jpg

And that question about the bore and stroke?

The chambers in this engine are probably heart shaped like so many BMC engines. All of them, probably. So the tip of the point between the valves often provides that hot spot to cause running on.

QUOTE: "Actually not quite any of the above, the Rolls Royce B60 was based on the RR Silver Wraith engine which was the last car engine RR developed pre WW2 it ran until the V8 Silver Cloud II appeared in in 1959. The V8 was based on Cadillac technology but both RR and GM kept quiet about this.

The straight 8 B80 was only used in military vehicles and some specialist fire tenders mainly based on the Alvis Sarracen, the light alloy block B81 was the one used the Dennis fire appliance." END QUOTE



The B40/B60/B80 series were all cast iron engines, modular - same bore/stroke, valves etc, - developed for the military in the late 30s. The post-war 6-cyl car engine was a significant evolution of the B60, with alloy head and numerous other differences. You can find it a bit tricky trying to install the military B60 in say a Silver Wraith. The 4-litre all-alloy 6 was in effect an aluminium-block short-stroke edition of the 4.9 litre car engine.

The B80 straight-eight was used in some 14 or so Phantom 4 limousines, and was cast-iron. It was also used in Dennis fire engines and numerous military vehicles, and is a popular transplant into 1930s Phantom 3's whose V12 engines have gone phut. There are absolutely no V12 spares available.

The R-R V8 is nothing like the Caddy apart from being a 90 degree pushrod V8. The Caddy of the time was a "short-skirt" cast iron 5.4 litre with the oil pump and dizzy driven off the rear of the camshaft. The R-R was a 6.23 litre all-alloy open-deck wet sleeve design with very deep skirts, with dizzy driven off the rear of the camshaft. The oil-pump was semi-external, in the front timing chest, driven off the front of the crankshaft (a recurrring R-R engine design feature since the Jurassic age). Early R-Rs used the same hydraulic lifters as the Chrysler V8, but both companies bought them from the same US supplier, Detroit Screw if I remember rightly. The R-R V8 has a number of design features in common with the pre-war 7.4 litre V12 car engine, which in turn had common design features with the Merlin (the wet sleeve sealing system is all but identical in all three engines.)

R-R always had great respect for Detroit and never hesitated to give proper credit where due, including for the GM auto transmissions they used until recently. The "copy" story is just another motoring myth.

How are the idle speed and quality? There should be no trouble getting the engine down to spec idle speed or under.

A couple of possible issues with SUs...for future reference and the amusement of the assembled if nothing else... the throttle shafts tend to wear out (elongate) their pivot bores, causing air leaks around the shaft. Easy to diagnose by spraying an aerosol flammable (carb cleaner, ether, etc) around the throttle shafts with engine running. Idle will increase and smooth out if it is leaking. Easy to fix by bushing the throttle shaft bore.

Some later model SUs have an "over-run valve" on their throttle blade. It's a miniature spring-loaded popoff valve that opens on rapid throttle closing to prevent rich over-run. Emissions feature. If the tiny little spring gets weak (from carb backfires etc) or the seat gets carboned up, the valve won't seat properly and will pass air at idle. Best fixed by replacing the throttle blade with a plain no-valve version.

Either of these problems will produce a high, lean, or unstable idle.

Hey McGuire, thanks...knew about the throttle bushing issue...fairly common overhaul trick, but had not heard of the ORVs!

Heres what Dennis said...

Mostly correct, but I would give a different emphasis.

Yes, by running on I mean the engine continues to run after turning off the normal ignition source, i.e. electricity to the spark plugs. For a petrol engine to run it needs 3 things - petrol, air and an ignition source. A diesel (aka compression ignition engine) needs only the first 2. Since the petrol and air supply is entirely automatic (if the pistons are moving, you ARE going to get an explosive air and fuel mix courtesy of the carburettor), the only item under driver control is the electricity supply. The normal ignition source is a spark across the spark plug gap, but it could also be any hot spot in the combustion chamber, e.g. the spark plug terminal, a hot exhaust valve, a hot point, or a piece of hot carbon. I suspect all petrol engines are within an ace of running on, but don't because the hottest ignition point is not quite hot enough.

So the ONLY variable is control of the hot spot. This can be affected by
1. ignition timing - too much advance promotes a hot plug,
2. fuel mixture - too lean increases exhaust valve temperature,
3. combustion chamber design - sharp edges/points (as in Weslake heads) concentrate heat,
4. engine speed at idle - too fast doesn't allow hot combustion chamber components to cool,
5. fuel type - more volatile (higher octane) fuel cools components more, crap fuel leaves carbon deposits.

Some carbs have a separate idle circuit, but SUs and several other common designs do not. For those without a separate idle circuit, it is not possible to close the butterfly completely as the motor would not run at idle - it must get some air/fuel mixture to run.

My cylinder head has been gas flowed and has had the sharp point between the valves blunted considerably. It is too new to have any carbon build up. That leaves the spark plug and the exhaust valve as most likely candidates.

In any case, I filled up with premium (at great expense!) and the problem reduced dramatically. Then I replaced the distributor with an electronic one and in the process reset the ignition timing. That disappeared the running on almost completely. Because the engine is still tight, I have the idle set 200 RPM too high.

By the way, Ford, with all their resources, could not cure their Kent engines from running on. Consequently most 1600 and 1300 engined models (mid 60s to mid 70s) were fitted with an anti run-on valve ex factory. It consisted of a half inch hose running from the inlet manifold to a small solenoid operated air valve, fitted with a tiny paper air filter (I have a complete example in stock!). Ignition-on closed the solenoid, but ignition-off allowed the air valve to spring open and dump air directly into the manifold, taking the mixture well outside the magic 13:1 range. It worked, but did not solve the underlying problem.

Like Ray Bell I find the engine different from most BMC powerplants,and I used to get parts off a guy who had nearly everything BMC produced lying around.

Running on was a problem for most cars of that era - a juggle of idle speed,ign timing and mixture.A trick we used on the Kent engines and the Hunter often was to remove the projected nose plugs (N9Y) and fit standard plugs (N5).It didn't always work if there was another problem like carb spindles....but it took a potential hot spot out of the combustion chamber.

Worth to try some colder plugs and stay away from Champions.

ND (nippondenso) have been my personal favorites for 30 years. Many times I have convinced people to toss Champion plugs and use book standard ND's with great results.

Give Doug at MG Motorsport a call; I promise he'll know how to solve this straight away. I can't remember which ex-works MGC he personally had, but it was one of the three "famous" ones.

We will have to agree to disagree about run-on and its causes.

In the era of emissions and carburetors there were many types of anti-run on valves, of which that is just one. It doesn't work on air mass or volume but on pressure.

As in it reduces the vacuum in the manifold sharply so the flow through the carburettor stops?

And I'm still waiting on bore and stroke figures for this thing...

The MGB (and associated British junk) used an anti-run on valve on the rubber bumper models, and I have even seen them retrofitted to earlier cars by enterprising owners to fix dieseling/run on.

Of course, with EFI the problem is effectively eliminated, but there were probably dozens of schemes for controlling run-on with carbureted vehicles. Many Japanese carbs used an "idle cutoff solenoid" -- an electrically operated needle valve in the idle A/F circuit. With the ignition shut off, the needle slammed home and blocked off the idle mixture.

One could write a rather fat book about all the interesting gizmos and gadgets tacked onto the final generation of carbureted vehicles to fix all the emissions and driveability problems.

Looked at multiple sources and they seem to agree on 83.36mm x 88.9mm. No? Is there more to the story?

Well...the 123 electronic distributor and a little fiddling seems to have cured the dieseling....tomorrow, we take it on its first long run out past Yass...can't wait

I really like the 123 distributor. Nice piece. What coil are you running?

AFAIR the standard transformer oil filled device.

I thought that might be one way to verify the origins of the basic 7-bearing engine...

They are the same as the C-series had been since they were expanded to 2912cc, so they are clearly a C-series engine, a derivative of the original C-series.

And from the Motorbase site I found this acknowledgment:



How people could ever think it was an enlarged 6-cylinder B-series I cannot work out, something similar to the never ending stream of tales about how the C-series was a truck engine... anyway, they made about 25,000 of these things, I'll come across one somewhere some day and be able to look it over for myself.

The confusion is simple. C series, as with A series and B series are easy to tune. All you need to do is replace the block, head, crank, camshaft, pistons, rods, valves and manifolds.

Unfortunately you still end up with a dog.

Weeeeeeeellll dear boyl....if the recently overhauled MGC that I have driven recently is a dog....all I can say is..release the hounds!!

British machines stir the maternal nurturing instinct in men of a mechanical bent. Anyone can look at a British car and discern room for improvement, while the honest grey iron responds in an immediate and positive fashion to even a hammer and file. Thus the magnetic attraction for anyone who considers himself the least bit handy. You say, "Hey, I can fix this," and you will. Every day. If you like fixing things there is much to like about British cars.

Man, MagWaaaarrr...thats some real damn poetry!! You drilled it!!

Hey, remember the excruciating tone in 2001 A Space Odessy ?? when they disturbed the obelisk???

I really couldn't give a rodents backside about what others think about this particular ve-heee-cool....all I know is that it is a wonderful seat-of-the-pants experience to punch her through the gears on the open road

Stop it. There is an MGB-GT for sale on my street and a Sunbeam Tiger only a few blocks away and you are just making it worse.

Stop it??? Hmmmm if the B-GT is a V8, well that might be right up your alley from an injun point of view...however, if it was up to me....go the Tiger

Well the engine has been on a dyno and is running strongly with its new needles, tappetts adjusted and the 123 ignition sorted. The thing has bags of torque! a joy to drive!

Here is a picture of it on a recent visit, two MGs 40 years apart (tuther is an M Type)



[Edit/PS: one thing we found on the recent long run in the country was a faulty washer bottle electric motor...when MGC and 1968 was mentioned at the local car parts shop = blank looks. "But its a universal washer motor!"

Amazingly a little extra check of their shelves by the MGC owner dug up a "Nice NWP-500" Universal Washer Bottle Motor which is near as-damn-it identical to the original!! Unbelievable in these days of short-run throw-away items]

I have used both Rolon true roller and Iwis chains in roller cam Chevs with no trouble though they all stretch fairly quickly.
Presuming it is a standard pitch you can buy it in lengths with connecting link. You will have to be very careful with the gears though, if they are worn it will cause problems and the chain will not start of tight

MGC 29G Six Cylinder Engine etc

Bore: 3.282in (83.36mm)
Stroke: 3.5in (88.9mm)
Capacity: 177.7cu in (2912 cm3)
Liners in block
Overbores = 0.020 and 0.040
Flat top Aluminum pistons, solid skirts
CR = 9:1 (175 psi)

Piston Rings:
Top/2nd/3rd tapered, are plain chrome
Oil Control = two chrome faced rings with expander
(cast iron)

OHV
Inlet Valve heads = 1.745 to 1.750in (44.32 to 44.45mm)
Exhaust Valve heads= 1.558 to 1.563in (39.57 to 39.70mm)
Rocker Clearance = 0.15in

Crankshaft:
7 main bearing
Steel backed VP3 – Tin – Aluminum bearings
Conrods: split big ends, bushed little ends, fully floating gudgeons retained by circlip in piston

Cam Timing:
Inlet Opens 16° BTDC
Closes 56° ABDC
Exhaust Opens 51° BBDC
Closes 21° ATDC
(car has a “fast road cam” – Wade 169)
Double row timing chain

Fuel Pump = SU AUF 301 (40 year old diaphragm disgraced itself recently)
Fuel Tank = 12 gallon/54 Litres
Carburettors = Twin SU HS6

Distributor = Lucas 25DS (car has 123 ignition)
Coil = Lucas HA12
Spark Plugs = Lucas N9Y (0.24 to 0.26in gap)
Electrical: Two 6V Batteries (usually replaced by one 12V)

Transmission = Four speed with Laycock DeNormanville Electric Overdrive
Final Drive:
Standard (early) 3.07 (criticised for being a slug under acceleration!)
Later Cars, Overdrive and Auto (3 speed) = 3.307
Overdrive = 0.82:1
Clutch = 9in with 6 damper springs

Wheels = 5J X 15in

Weight:
Engine with clutch = 652lb/296 Kg
Max Gross Weight:
Unladen = 2415lb/1096Kg
Kerbside = 2460lb/1116Kg

G'day gentlemen!

I don't often get into this area but having done so I couldn't leave without passing on this v. useful site that I found while trying to locate engine weights:

http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/library/txt/engfyi.htm

I am a fan of the BMC 'C' series engine-it intrigues me that, basic though it is, it can be made to produce 250 bhp-using the original crank, head and block-the Aston Martin equivalent engine-twin ohc and all-can be made to produce 250bhp if you replace: the head, crank, pistons, rods, cams and usually the block too. The cost would make your eyes bleed!

In the seventies there was an outfit in the UK that made a kit to install a Rover V8 in the MGC. Apparently, the engine bay of the C is different to the B and allows the engine to sit lower and further back--gotta be a good thing.

Does anybody know the weight of an Alfa 2600 engine

Why did they fall so short?

Who knows? wouldn't have been the first time someone came up with an unrealistic goal or target in the British Automotive industry

Liners in the block?

That doesn't sound right...

I read that if RR had of known about thin wall cast iron technology, they would have used that. Their alloy V8 weighed more than the equivalent thin wall cast iron GM V8. Still that V8 is still - I think - in production. So the R&D would be paid off by now.

Open deck?



I don't think there are gaskets still in place, but there might be.

Head Gaskets...the engine performed fabulously down and back to Phillip Island....unfortunately, a small coolant leak developed on two head studs probably due to the "paper" headgaskets they sell these days. The head will have to come off soon. Owner has one hand made copper head gasket left which should do the job.

However, does anyone know of the best (ie reliable) head gasket supplier...I don't think the big suppliers like Moss and Rimmers do, I think they only sell the paper versions!!

as for...In the seventies there was an outfit in the UK that made a kit to install a Rover V8 in the MG. Evidently, after proving the concept and creating a market they were kicked in the guts for the efforts when their supply of new engines was halted from the factory.

Wasn't this the Costello MGB V8?

Yes

For a headgasket I would try Karcraft in Silverwater. Greg has been able to perform miracles in the past.

Also try G.S.Burling P/L at Frenchs Forest. (02 9452 5784) They are suppliers of Pistons, Rings, Valves, Bearings and Gaskets for Vintage & Veteran Autos, Trucks and Tractors. They may not have anything that recent but it could be worth a shot.

Also, D.Page at Toongabbie (02 9631 5748) He makes gaskets but I don't know if he does headgaskets, I know he does gearbox and carby gaskets for anything.