If it's that common you should be able to give us plenty of examples where the driver has sat having a conversation.

Come on - make up your mind. One minute you're telling me he had no idea of how much time he had in the session, the next minute you're telling me he thought he could spare 20s.

I think the sessions are very tight (which is why we see "a few other teams thought they had the time but failed to send their drivers out in time for a final run this season", as you say) and that Alonso knows this. Hence he would not sit there doing nothing for 20s if he was concerned about his tyres, he would try and get the team's attention.

When did I say that? All I said is it would be likely to get the team to open up the radio (assuming this "the radio was blocked" story was true) so then he could say "I dont want scrubbed tyres give me another set of new tyres".

You disagree with that? You think a team, seeing it's driver wave his arms in the car, wouldn't open up their radio to say "what's up?"?

I think it's an incredible fable to not bother checking something in the first 20s of your stop and then decide to check it in the last 10s, when waiting for those 20s means it is possible you will not be able to get changed what you want changed.

As Clatter says: "If it's that common you should be able to give us plenty of examples where the driver has sat having a conversation." to which I'd add "after the lollipop has been raised". Go on - 2 examples of this common phenomenon?

* Imagines that bit in 'Team America: World Police'... *

'Neutral observers' like most of the people around here, and Itv ?

They have to accept he did wrong because he admitted it. Its the only reason they accept it.

I was commenting on the possible scenario that he did it on purpose. Its not the only possible scenario though.

In your mind there is apparently no question of Alonso being guilty simply because he dared to wait an extra 10 seconds in a pitstop. There is no other explanations, hes guilty, throw away the key. Its amazing such a little bit of evidence is enough for you to determine certain guilt, but when it concerns your friend mosley, not even mountains of incriminating evidence was enough and you had no problems presenting 2000 posts worth of your own 'justifications' and 'explanations'. Hilarious.

KERS, your posts are comedy gold, nothing to do with the real world of F1, but comedy gold nonetheless.

Alonso sat in his pitbox to make a point to Lewis and the team. He didn't specifically set out to prevent Lewis from doing another lap, but he did set out to hinder him, to 'send him a message' as it were.

That, unfortunately for Alonso, was the wrong thing to do. He played the hand he thought right, but it has cost him dearly in terms of a WDC, a ride in a midfield car and a damaged reputation.

The rest is just details as Kimi would say. Get over it.

The rule is unnecessary impedance isnt it? Trying to get the correct tyres fitting to your car is not unnecessary. He had every right.

Can somebody re-explain in the run up to Alonso pit-box-gate, what Hamilton did that was so wrong?

As I remember it, Hamilton was behind Alonso in the pitstop seqeuce for Q3 but he was supposed to get ahead of Alonso so that Alonso would run last on his final qualifying run.

Is it me or is this the most insignificant of differences anyway? We are talking about Alonso potentially running 10 seconds behind Hamilton on the final run? How much does the track temperature go up by in 10 seconds? Is the track even guaranteed to be better 10 seconds later? Seems to me the whole thing was inspired by an utterly insignficant detail in the first place.

And why didn't Hamilton do whatever it is he was supposed to do?

Thanks.

I agree.

I want to start a 'Please Mods, Don't Ban KERS/Bluray/Gates/RTX/Durant/David G/Asperon/Arrow Again Because He's Funny And At Least Isn't Racist' campaign.

Did he know he couldnt spare 20 seconds? Nope.



We have been over this before. Knowing the session is tight does not automatically translate to 'I cant even spare 10 seconds".



What you are doing is playing monday morning quarter back. Sitting there in calm hindsight will all the facts infront of you and determing how something should have been done different. Thats worthless. In the heat of the moment Alonso did not act as you believed he should and that happens all of the time in sport or real word situation, when you look back and think why didnt I do this or that. Maybe he made a mistake and could have done things different, but that doesnt mean he did what he did on purpose.


No point because you would just try to justify them for doing it and keep denying Alonso. Utterly pointless for me to go to that effort.

The lollipop man is there to ensure safety in the pitlane. He makes sure drivers don't turn out and crash into another car and endanger all the soft squidgy bodies of the various crews and track personnel.

He should have been banned for three races just for ignoring the order to go.

How do you know he didnt know how much time was remaining? They have a display on their steering wheel which can show a number of things, and I would not be surprised if one of those items was the session clock.

Even if he really did think the wrong tyres had been fitted he has more than enough experience to know that there would not be time for the team to get a different set out of the garage and fitted within the remaining time.

As to your last point, well that's the excuse of anyone who can't back up their argument. You stated that it is a common occurrence, so it really shouldn't take much effort.

That's funny, because there isn't a single "if" in those posts. Not one. You talk entirely in absolutes in the posts I quoted, and there were lots of them. Now you expect us to believe you were talking hypothetically. As others have said, you're comedy gold Arrow. You chop and change, the only thing remaining consistent being that you will defend Alonso come hell or high water.


Did I say he knew he couldn't spare 20s? Nope. All I said was he will have known, given how tight these sessions are, that sparing those 20s will have been at the risk of not being able to get his tyres changed. I don't believe he would have taken that risk for the sake of "looking unprofessional" in waving a hand.

Hilariously, you do think that Alonso would risk going out on the wrong tyres in case his professional image got damaged by him waving a hand.


If it's common it should be no effort to find an example of a driver sitting in his box for 10s after the lollipop has been raised to discuss his tyre choice. Of course the truth is it would take effort because it isn't common.


Awesome

Sorry Clatter. Adam Coopers article says;

Now you can rely on this information because you don't think Adam Cooper is a Pirate. Other posters, unfortunately, will have to decide whether they believe Adam on this but still call him a liar about duplex radio.

I hadn't thought about it before, but being consistent when trolling is quite difficult.

Please don't. Some people think Bernard Manning was a comedian but he still managed to offend a lot of people and is missed by very very few.

I don't think that's fair, however he should have been given a ban for Brake testing people in the past.

I believe you are forgetting a little thing when judging Alonso's behaviour. Alonso's final lap was in time by just 0.6 seconds (yeah, what a coincidence), IIRC. So he hadn't a lot of time to spare in the pits. That would play against the theory that he stopped deliberately to impede Hamilton, because at that moment Hamilton was on pole and he was second. He needed to have a final lap.

Of course we can think he miscalculated the remaining time, and it nearly backfired (i.e., he could have run out of time).

Enjoyed reading that again. Some good snippets on how the story suddenly changed when in front of the stewards:

Hamilton was 4s off. So Alonso clearly drove a slow out lap. He had time to spare and used it. The "how could he have cut it so fine?" line is incorrect.

I think it's time to introduce a new unit of time, namely 1 Alonso = 0.6s, it would save a lot of typing ;)

I don't think Alonso needed any timers or anything. He knew Hamilton was behind him and that the team still needed to get both cars out in time. He simply could have waited for about the time that he guessed it would take McLaren to service Hamilton after him if things went to McLaren plan. Which is precisely what he seemed to do.

Fair enough. Surprised they don't have the session time though.

When i say it wasnt professional i mean its an incompetent way to communicate with the team. An extra 10 seconds is not a lot of time so it was not unrealistic for him to think it wouldnt hurt.



I dont keep video footage of all the races. Longer than normal pitstops and miscommunication is very common. Thats why in that very same session Massa wasnt given fuel, when he stopped for fuel. Or maybe you think he was sabotaged also?

How did Alonso know he had time to spare without having a session timer? Are you saying he timed his out lap to within a second without any timing to go off? You keep saying he knows how tight these sessions are but now he cruised his outlap and risked missing his final lap?

This is the Massa who drove off, regardless, as soon as his lollipop told him to? As in, when it was safe to do so?

Natsat can add to his list:
- Alonso is an attempted murderer of pit crews.

It was 20s, not 10s, that he lost by not trying to attract the team's attention earlier. And at the end of a session, that is a lot of time.

He knows they do it down to the wire, yet was willing to sacrifice 20s of time to talk to the team rather than wave a hand? Really?

Also, look at the quotes in the article from Cooper. You'll note that the story did change, and that the questions were very specific. Why do you think the story changed? Pretty damning, not?

Lastly, you still have yet to comment on whether Alonso's protestations of innocence should count for anything or not. Do the accused's words hold weight or not? I think they do, but you have previously said they don't ...

You keep trying to fudge this and claim it looked the same as Massa's fuelling error. But that won't wash. People are not that stupid. You need to do better to try and cover up the obvious.

This was not just a longer than normal pit stop with miscommunication. This was a stop where a driver sat still for 10s following the lollipop being raised and caused his team mate to lose a lap. That is not common, and you know it. That looks suspicious, and you know it. So people investigating is not a surprise.

And when the explanations provided are inconsistent and make no sense, people come to the conclusion that their suspicions are correct.

You'll also note Dennis' comments the next day where he said that no one in the team was completely innocent. Now if Alonso was genuinely asking about tyres in those 10s, whay would he have done to not be completely innocent? Dennis, once the penalty was set and nothing more could be done, pretty much confirmed that Alonso did hold Hamilton deliberately.

He was on the radio to the team on his outlap and asked them how he was doing for time.

Thats not accurate at all. So you are indeed saying he timed his out lap to within a few tenths despite no timer.

You know he did not radio his team about the time he had for his outlap? Source?

The Cooper article states he did.

He didnt know it was down to the wire as has been explained to you, he had no timer so you need to quit that line. You dont think its possible for him to misjudge the situation? Not possible? Do you think its possible for a driver to just drive into another car at the end of the pitlane in clear view?


They hold weight if they are backed up.


So a driver pitting for fuel and the team 'forgetting' to put in fuel is not suspicious? Thats common is it?


Ah ron Dennis, mr objective

The team telling him over the radio to 'hurry up' or even telling him you have X time left, is still not accurate enough for him to judge it so close with confidence. His last lap was crucial. Why would be do a slow out lap anyway? No reason.

Defending the indefensible again Arrow? The FIA investigated listened to the Radio Communication and found Fred guilty as charged...

Sorry...

No it is not common, but it was a communication mix up between the pitwall and the garage, which meant that the guys in the garage did not know to put fuel into Massa's car.

It's not remotely similar to what happened down at McLaren.

1. He did know that McLaren regularly run Q3 down to the wire to get as many laps in as possible. It was their standard operating procedure. He didn't need a timer to know that was their way of handling the sessions. So, no, I will not quit that line. You just need to get it into your thick skull that a lack of session timer makes no difference to Alonso being aware that Q3 is operated so as to have a final timed lap right at the end of the session.

2. He doesn't have to judge the situation - that's the point. He has 2 options:

(a) increase the risk that he will be unable to do anything about his tyre situation and wait for the radio to come clear to raise it with the team; or

(b) not increase the risk and wave an arm.

You think a competitor like Alonso would decide to increase the risk for the sake of arm waving being unprofessional.



Very different to what you said in the Mosley thread. Glad you are coming round to a sensible view.

You think Ferrari sabotaged Massa by forgetting to put fuel in? You're the only one.

It's not suspicious because why would Ferrari do that? It's an obvious mistake.

Alonso, however, had very good reason to do what he did (you posted about it previously, although now you claim you were only talking in hypotheticals despite the fact your posts were couched in absolute terms ). It is also more unusual for a driver to ignore the lollipop (you got any examples for this supposedly common occurence, or you still think its too much effort to find an example of something you think common?) than it is a team to make a mistake on fuelling, which does happen.

Everyone who watched that session thought what happened was suspicious.

Oh this is so dull now. Even ArrowKERS can't come up with anything original to say anymore. Can we move on to Alonso telling everyone that he couldn't cut across to the pit wall when he won Monza because the draft from his wings was dangerous for the pit crew

Yes there is - he learned that at Monza in 2006. You drive a slow out-lap, crossing the line as late as possible, and the driver behind you is in the dirty air and his hot-lap gets compromised as a result. It was perfect, if you consider the theory that Alonso didn't try to deny Hamilton that last lap, but rather just wanted to spoil the run by making him run in the dirty air on the soft tyres that grained up incredibly quickly from new.

To me it makes perfect sense. McLaren aren't going to complain as Ferrari did in 2006 as it's an internal matter. It would have been, in essence, the perfect Q3 crime - it just went tits up when Hamilton missed the cut-off.

Kubi had to either slow down or run into Fernando. With Michael on the outside I don't think he had the option to pass.

Yes they slow down for a red flag, the question is how slow is slow?

Yes I am quite sure Fernando is well up for arranging for the downfall of his rivals He's an F1 driver after all.

Why do you find it unlikely? He's intelligent, ultra-competitive, p*ssed off about his own penalty. He knows MS is behind and outside him, why not slow down some more and create the possibility for Michael to overtake under a red flag? Why not?

Outstanding! one Alonso, two Alonso, three alonso, .....

Chomp Chomp Chomp

Admiring the effort guys, highly amusing!

Christ, this is still going?

I guess we can all see the posters that are unemployed and have nothing better to do with their time ;)

As opposed to the posters in which BB threads, exactly?

Mainly because he has to decide and figure all this out in the split second between he sees the red flag and he lifts off. I DO think Alonso is an intelligent guy but I think there are limits even to him.

Furthermore - I'm not even sure he knows MS is somewhere behind him. Why should he? This is a FP session and Alonso has no interest in knowing where MS is or even if he's on track at all at this particular time - unless the team had told him so. "Red Alert Fernando, MS on track!" (pun very much intended)

We've repetedly heard the radio traffic in race when the drivers' engineers are telling the drivers who is behind and who is in front, but that's hardly applicable in FP since it's completely useless information there.

And how slow? Alonso is aware that Kubica is behind him I'm sure, because he can see Kubica in his rear mirrors. TOO slow and Alonso risks Kubica - who's driving his first GP ever - hitting his ass.

It doesn't happen. So not too slow.

One great definition of an F1 driver is someone to whom 1/1000th of a second is a useful period of time, and Michael certainly thought Fernando saw the opportunity and set him up. But I suppose we're a bit short of hard data, really

Michael had to blame somebody, hadn't he? Oh horrible, horrible thought that he himself could have made a mistake! But fair enough.