Hello, Everyone. New member. I know my funny user name, from Seinfeld. George Costanza, who is the greatest sitcom character of all time... I recently came upon researching who is/was the best driver psychologically and mentally in history and today?


I do not think believe that it is Michael Schumacher, because, he did crack under pressure a few times. It certaintly isn't Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton of today.

I think it might be Alain Prost. He was always looking for that edge over everyone and he would do what he had to do.

Senna was the same, however, he would get ruthless as we all know.


Let's all debate here.

I think Senna was far more talented than Prost, so Prost's almost superhuman efforts to compete on level terms must be put down to psychological strength.

I don't think either of them can be said to be as strong psychologically as Fangio though. He was surely the toughest of them all.

fernando alonso diaz without a doubt

That's certainly logical. He had an almost obsessively calculated style, in deference to the natural flair of Senna. Schumacher was up there, too - but he seemed slightly less calculated, and slightly more natural.

I'd start the list off with Fangio, Clark and Stewart and then take it from there...

That driver that cracked under the pressure of a rookie?

He is quite prone to stress as we saw last year. Plus, in 2006, with the battle with Schumi, he was losing his edge when things were going wrong with the car.

If we're thoughtful this could be a pretty interesting thread.

My thoughts: Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda should be ranked highly in this regard. I would be interested in hearing the more studied motorsport fans for F1 drivers "back in the day" and those that took part in other forms of racing (George, I think you may have wanted to limit your list to just f1, no?)

What about Nelson Piquet? Alan Jones? Piquet really liked to mess with other's heads (maybe a sign of insecurity?). Jones is revered by Williams for his toughness (but maybehe was weak for getting all tangled up with his battle against Ruetteman?)

Clark was definitely up there - I rather think both of the other had a screw loose. Phenomenal racers, and clever people, but I think they'd have driven the same lobotomised.

Yeah. Gilles and Prioni battles. I think Gilles was stronger, but who knows...

Yes, this is F1 only. It would be too hard to do all non F1..

Piquet Sr. - the master of mind games

Agree - probably one of the most fair weather of all. You can't imagine him going toe-to-toe with Senna or Prost 1988/1989 style - whilst he doesn't necessarily require team-mate support, he doesn't seem to cope at all with intra-team competition.

Yes. I think if Alonso had better keep an eye on Piquet Jr, he is only going to get better...

If Alonso goes to Honda, Honda better keep Barrichello. Alonso can handle him easily a la Schumi. But, Button and Alonso.... watch out.

I'd like to suggest Mika Hakkinen. I don't recall him making very many mistakes and he out-psyched Schumacher on several occasions.

^ but then you have Imola. Goes to show how on the limit they are.


Perhaps we should distinguish drivers who were all guts, to those who having the guts, knew how to handle them, keep them under control and unleash them if needed. In my lifetime, I'd say Prost and Piquet were truly above the rest. In AP case, there is always the story of Monza 1988 when he knew the car would last, yet he pushed hard to force AS to do the same and make him more prone to a mistake. Is it true? I dunno, but it was an interesting read.

Easily Alonso.

He is well known for digging deeper and driving harder then ever when pressure is piled against him. Like China 2005 when Renault where completely lacking pace against McLaren the past half year and he was on the verge of winning or losing his first championship challenge we saw a relentless performance to the flag. Monza 2006 when during qualifying his car lost a chunk of rear aero he drive an amazing lap on the limit while keeping it on the road, then after the penalty he drove at an absolutely relentless and stunning pace. Brazil 2007 he was the only one to get into a championship winning position on merit while the favourite could have easily won, he instead made mistakes and took himself out of the running and the outside favourite was gifted the winning position by his teammate.

Yes, Alonso is capable of that, but his complaints regarding team support (both at Renault and Macca) show that his psychological attitude needs a nurturing environment for him to excel.

But then every single year he seems tgo lack the self control to keep himself in favour with his teams -

In 2006 Renault were allegedly favouring Fisichella, in 2007 McLaren were obviously favouring Hamilton, if he wins it was his development prowess (something he boasted of in early 2007) if he loses he was plotted against.

Is he fast? Undoubtedly, is he psychologically robust? I'd judge not.

I think the present class is not as strong as some in the past.

Psychologically strong used to mean burying your best friend on Thursday and racing again on Sunday, like so many did in the 70s. Or going into a race knowing that Colin Chapman had lightened the car again and wondering which part would break. Or sitting in a bath of fuel with no safety bags.

Physically strong used to mean 300 - 500 mile races on roads so rough that you wore a body belt to keep your internal organs in place. It used to mean fighting an Auto Union that wanted to kill you.

So in those terms there are no comparisons to be made, I would suggest.

On the other hand, the constant mind games played since the 80s have been tough on some drivers. Raikkonen can't have a dry spell without it drawing massive speculation over his mental state. Ditto Alonso, Hamilton, Massa, Button (anyone except Sato, it seems). Expert spinners like Briatore and Brawn exploit the situation.

But to answer the unanswerable, I would say Moss. He came back from a terrible accident at Spa, and then an even worse one at Goodwood (not to racing, but to a normal life). He drove Lotuses, he raced on appalling circuits (even the banked track at Monza) and took part in the Mille Miglia - and won it. He is still around.

Boy, he gets my vote.

are we talking about psychologically and mentally strong drivings or in the way british press interpret driver's words?

what a coincidence that mr dennis himself said of alonso as a combination of prost's calculation and senna's ambition

all those who've worked with him coincide in pointing him out as the most unstressed driver they've ever met,

besides, his mental strengh is support in the way he manages his real life outside f1, or the way he keeps talking clearly in front of micros without being bothered of external reactions...

fernando alonso diaz without a doubt

Mika almost lost the title 1999 due to a couple of race-ending mistakes. He seemed to crack under pressure. He was even crying in the woods, Monza 1999.

Andrea de Cesaris for sure. He was mental and psycho...

Lauda perhaps comes top of the list. "Do you consider Reutemann as a team-mate or rival?" "Neither". The man who overdrafted his way into F1 and to keep the banks from the door manhandled a BRM to the front of Monaco when he knew Enzo would be watching on telly. Then had the balls to leave Ferrari before the end of a season and Brabham in the middle of a GP weekend. Not forgetting his comeback 6 weeks after having had the Last Rites read to him. I don't think anything fazed him much.

I get the impression Rindt was cut from the same cloth. There's a story that his pulse was down to normal about 40 seconds after hitting the wall at Indy.

Renault of 2005 was so good Pat Symonds admitting the team and ALonso just didn't need to push all the time, so the pace we saw at China 2005, was just how good the reanult really was. Then of cource at Brazil he just needed to collect points. Alonso talked down his car's competitiveness, making it out he did some Michael Schumacher type season lol, then later Pat Symonds hit out and said Renault was the best car, they just didn't go flat out for wins all the time. Kimi and Mclaren blew up, putting less pressure on then they should have. Come 2006, Ferrari hit issues with piston problems, and tyre issues, playing catch up, but remarkable fight back from Imola giving where they were in 2005,



Imola 2006, Schumacher producing inlaps that even Pat Symonds described as fantastic, I think everyone was expecting Alonso to come out ahead, but Michael was capable of finding speed, that drive along with China 2006, plus the relentless of Brazil 2006 showed Michael was something else in a race when he was on it, that little bit extra.


In terms of actual driving quality, Michael;s strategy drives like Hungary 98, his 4 stopper at France 2004, his race from the back in the wet on slicks while Hill on wets at Spa 95, just of a higher quality, there's alot more dozen of great drives that made the legend from his 92 gps, but damn I've only written about them in over 100 or so threads over the past 7 years here.

Actually I can't believe I'm having to talk about Schumi's career, as it's if very few watched it properly these days, but everyone is getting older, new fans comig in all the time.


Anyway, Jim Clark, Michael Schumacher, Fangio and Ayrton Senna

I give Schumacher special kudos because he stuck by Ferrari, he didn't run to the best car, he sought a challenge and made it a mission to win with ferrari, sets him apart because he got the job done then earned his right to sit at the top as a king. Some of his his drives in 96/97/98 secured his reputation in the paddock,

If the question's holistic then fine he's a candidate for sure, but he rarely showed the same indomitable spirit within his team.

Michael dunlop

sample of one mind

edit: Valentino Rossi.

There's a surprise - phenomenal driver, epic talent - never had a proper battle in equal machinery, though. Not to say he couldn't, merely that he didn't.

Alonso the strongest psychologically and mentally?

Your avin a larf boys!

How many times has the guy lost it toys out the pram style with both Renault and McLaren? Too many to mention, hardly the signs of mental strength.

Someone who kept calm, under control, reacted thoughtfully, with deliberation regardless of pressure.... Alain Prost could be in there representing the modern era, also someone like Barichello has always seemed a guy who knows how to control himself, and of course there must be a fair few from the 50's 60's al la Clark to....

Anybody who doesn´t rate Michael Schumacher is either blind or has an irrational hatred of Germans. The man was a genius behind the wheel of a F1 car, and would have retired Senna had he not been so tragically taken from us. The other two to be considered are Jimmy Clark and Niki Lauda.

Michel in 2006 showed that he was someone else who was beaten by a better driver.

how can a driver who threw his car against his oponent the mentally strongest driver?

anyway other proof of my words, alonso pretty relaxed whilst racing
[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ulsteryl5.jpg[/img]

I would suggest Kimi, he can have a bad race but it won't break him, he'll just try again next race. Becoming WC in a ferrari last year after a poor first half of the season was amazing. Lesser drivers would have cracked under the pressure.

Last race is a great example. Horrible training, stuck behind Alonso, but not doing anything stupid and still finishing 3rd. (ok with a bit of luck)

Michael can be highly rated but if someone has a different opinion about him with respect to Senna or Alonso (2006) it does not make anyone blind or with any irrational hatred for Germans.. That is nonsense.

Michael Shumacher by the proverbial country mile.

Jerez 97 and monaco 06 would debunk this conclusion.

Monaco more than Jerez, but yeah for sure. Losing fair wasn't a conclusion he accepted.

The thing is, it very rarely affects his performance on track.

IMO, if we're talking about mental strength, his performance in Hungary qualifying '07 was truly outstanding. He must have been fuming during the first part of Q3, then (right or wrong, that's not the point here) took matters in his own hands, with Lewis sitting behind him and the crew standing around wondering what's going on, left his last run to the very last second and then still produced a brilliant lap to snatch pole.

All time I would probably go for Prost. Despite I'm thinking that his driving was affected in '89 by Senna's dominance, he still came back and produced a great race in Suzuka and later a great fight with Ferrari during the following season. Even in 1993, the first races up to Donington were pretty humilating for him, yet he still pressed on and got the job done.

So I would give the mental/psycho trophy to Prost, simply because Senna was never in the situation to cope with the fact that someone was plain faster than him (not his fault, obviously ;)). Prost, OTOH, experienced that with Senna, but he always came back.

On the other end of the scale I'd have to go for Damon Hill. I always liked him and he produced some astonishing performances in his time... but MS sooo had him in the bag psychologically. Or maybe I'm being a bit harsh because I was mightily annoyed about it back then ;).

Well, fact is Prost retired in lap 34 with a broken engine and Senna collided in lap 49 with a backmarker, being under pressure of Berger. Berger won.

This only makes sense if motor racing began in 1997...

I think you must learn to accept that for a (hopefully growing) percentage of people, nationality doesn't feature as a criteria at all .

Since you haven't read it, I copy it for ya. As I said, I don't know how much is speculation, but it is fun to read



Source

as65p

I don't think it's a given but Michael Schumacher must certainly be considered a candidate for this.

He was 'the' man for nearly 14 years. He was under greater media, regulatory and public scrutiny for longer than any other driver and I think was for all but a few seasons of his career fighting for the title. He cracked visibly but a couple of times. That points, for me, to a massively strong mental state.

The greatest support for the claim Schumacher was the most mentally tough driver is simply his consistency over two decades of racing. He had occasional blips, but they were only ever blips - and they were rare at that.

Prost, Senna each were under great scrutiny too, but they raced in an era before 24hr news cycles, hyper media, rampant commercialism came to dominate the sport. Lewis Hamilton, I think, is the driver that could possibly rival Schumacher in this though. He's going to have to actually if he's to come even close to achieving everything the media expects of him.

And that requires supreme mental toughness, and ability to rebound from misfortune, utter ruthlessness and sadly, a degree of isolation from peers, fans and the media.

Anyway in my opinion Schumacher is probably the most mentally strong driver ever to race in F1. His sheer consistency at the top of the sport, and as the most scrutinised driver of all time would imo support that belief.

Hamilton is the one though, that could prove even stronger though. Maybe.

In terms of outright skill (though I detested his attitude) Schumacher had the measure of Hill. It was Schumacher's cock-ups which lead to the final round decided, and his 'antics' which saw him lift the crown.

Actually there was suspicion that Michael's car developed a disease during the Jerez race which would made him stop anyway. If true that would make for a different perspective.

Racing Comments Post Quality

To the thread starter - Please read the thread from the link above.

On subject: My father is the greatest and the strongest and will beat yours with one hand.

Seriously: There can't be a greatest driver of all times. Everyone's greatness (phew, I don't like the word) applies to the specifics of the time period when he made his achievements.

that is too funny man..

which perspective the one that would justify crashing into your opponent and ending his race since my car will die further down into the race.. ?

great.. !!
.. you have changed my view completely..

Mentally/Psychologically...?
Stirling Moss

Jp

A "screw loose" was an absolute requirement, particularly back then.