Flavio opened this can of worms last week and suggested certain teams are "cheating" redesigning parts in the name of reliability but are really extracting more power now. Sir Frank today said it's all BS, but there is the story of a Red Bull Driver driving a Toro Rosso and noticing more power from the engine, if you read between the lines. Well it was a while before any cheating controversies emerged and here we are. This may simply be the case of Flavio finding excuses for Renault not doing so well this year. Maybe Frank is toeing the line because if Toyota is exploiting the rule then he will benefit too, but they seem to be going backwards, so who the hell knows....

As far as i know engines are checked by FIA and so far nothing illegal has been found... Flav/Alonso little jealous of the good work Merc is doing with their engine source?

How can a redesign of a component, whether for increased life or performance, be considered as cheating? Surely the cars are evolving technically all the time with new components being incorporated, or am I missing some significant point?

This is what sir Frank said...I am not native English speaker but it seems that I better understood what sir Franks said..At first I thought whole story is rubish but then when I red it conclusion can be drawn:

There is no cheating it is only bending of rules

Williams said he believed some teams had made advances with their engines since the freeze began, but did not feel any of the work was a deliberate bid to get around the regulations.

"It is a sensitive subject," admitted Williams. "This is purely anecdotal, second or even third hand, but there is a story that one of the Red Bull drivers jumped out of his Renault car and drove the Ferrari car and said, 'bloody hell!' True or false, I don't know. And that is not to point the figure at Ferrari.

"How it works is that you blueprint your engine when you first run it, you send the blueprint in and the FIA keep it. Then, if halfway through (the season) your piston rings are causing you trouble and you've broken so many, you can request, with evidence, that you are in trouble and the FIA will let you change the piston ring, or this or that.

"I think some people are braver than others, saying, 'this has gone wrong and I need to change it.' No one is cheating, but some people are better at bending the rules and knowing where to stop bending, than people who would never dream of even trying to squeeze something."

When asked if he felt there were any grounds for a complaint to be lodged with the FIA, Williams said: "We have not the slightest reason at all. Some engines are better than others, but that is life."

because ther is a rule of engine freeze and clear rule that no performance must be gained ...this why it can be considered cheating...and how can You guarantee
that FIA will be unbiassed in letting the teams redesign component...

As long as everything is documented and done with the consent of other teams under FIA supervision, it can't be cheating.
Cheating is when there's something hidden from the authority and the rivals.

during era of free engine development Renault did much better in engine then Merc...Renault engine was much better in torque and reliabillity..actually Renault engine was best on the grid...

but it seems they decided to cut their staff in Viry,reducing R&D on engine....

i was not talking about the past, but 2007-2008

Transparency ,and legality of Renault mass damper did not help them at all...
Whole technology was approved by FIA,teams who even tried to use it..
and also well documented...

but then in the middle of the season ,just before summer testing break FIA bann TMD
hurting Renault campaign that season..I think that R26 won 7 of the first 8 races and I tell
You that it is very likely that R26 might set the record that year in winning streak...

i

@papa
AFAIK nobody accused Renault of cheating. If so they must have been sanctioned. The TMD was simply banned for other reasons, though the argumentation by FIA was humoresque IMO.

I know but thing is that Renault did nothing on engine for two years...
ther is no jelaousy at all,maybe they are jelaous because Carlos Ghosn
cut engine R&D compared to Mercedes...

Flav should try to persuade Renault CEO to invest more but You cannot blame him
talking about the issue...

Whenever he says something many throlls are on BB saying What this cheater talking about
cheating?

Whatever he did in past it does not have to be that for the rest of his life he will always speak BS

Been here, done this, who will be first to drag Hamilton into it.............................?

agree 100%

I know...and it really pissed me off because I looked at it together with Alonso punishment in Monza 2006...
but that is past...and it says something in bending rules ..especially that it does not have to be brave to bend rules,it is better to be well informed

Whatever Flav or Alonso says(somebody already posted that on this BB) it might be directed to the Renault
CEO that still makes sense to have some R&D in engine...

it is possible...It does not bothered me other teams did some development..not at all..

Renault wanted the freeze.

They got the freeze.

Now they are bitching.

and real problem is that in situation like that this kind of throll never said a single thing about what Flav speaks..

give at least some response,have discussion ...

and it seems that they stick to freeze...unlike som other...are You sure they were alone in wanting freeze ?

It's Renaults fault for not pushing the boundaries. You cannot blame the others.

I'm sure Renault weren't alone but they were pushing for it.

So now i've become the Flav/Alonso troll... you realy should get your facts correct

An interesting point.

Let's assume due to reliability problems with a valve design, you can only run the engine at certain limits.

Now you have finally completed a redesign to improve th ereliability of the valves, therefore allowing you to run the engine at a higher limits.

Is this a performance gain?

Just a question for discussion.

pushing the boundaries,bending the rules,brave to explore...You can freely add to the list...

how did You get an idea that I was reffering to You?

many times I come accross to Flav bashers always speaking only about Flav's nature but never about topics he starts..this was my point...

sorry if there was misunderstanding

already some on this BB stated that it is impossible to separate reliabillity from performance...at least You get something in performance..I would say Yes...

misunderstanding apparently

Don't you all guys think that the existence of this and similar threads, as well as comments like Briatore's, come to show that once again the FIA has done everything in the wrong way?
I personally never understood the purpose of this freeze, the introduction of V8 before it and so on. Cost cutting? Even the children already know tha who has a budget to spend will spend it trying to gain an advantage. Be it subtle engine changes, viking horns allover the car or the shape of driver's helmet.
They should have left an area for creativity. For example define only basic frame for the engine like volume but put a fuel cap. Then the money would go for research which could find application in road car manufacture.

Which is exactly what Max has proposed for future regulations

Actually, he's said they can have any engine they want, it just has got to be of a certain fuel efficiency

I've learned not to believe MaXXX. The final result of his proposals is always something different from what we have thought initially.

We have to believe that even Max can spring a surprise

Don't blame Max for this one, it's up to the teams to "interpret" the rules as close to the fine line of cheating as possible, otherwise technical innovation will stagnate and the technical departments of each team are not doing their jobs. This has always been the way of F1 and until such time something is considered out of bounds then the FIA will close that loophole. If there is truth to this story then I think Flav was caught sleeping at the wheel and missed an opportunity. For example, look at McLaren's J damper, this is short of being called a movable aerodynamic device, but it's perfectly legal of course, and now most if not all of the teams are copying this idea. Flav should stop bitching and get working over the next 3 weeks to show the FIA "reliability" concerns.

Gear ratios, diff settings, fuel specification, downforce leves, air intake, density of air, humidity, driver stupidity, psychological trickery. whatever it is there's plenty of other reasons to suspect as opposed to the paranoid persons popular choice of cheating.

First to say, Tempest in a teapot!

I win.

Hey, if we can suspect Ferrari of intentionally jamming transponders, then Massa's engine failure last Sunday all of a sudden takes on a whole new meaning, eh?

I wonder what kind of "reliability-related" part failed on his engine?

One presumes then that Ferrari can justify the modification of the part that failed on his engine.
Thus, the Ferrari engine will have just a little bit more power for the rest of the season, once those 'reliability' modifications are installed.
Is that the way this loophole is said to work?

I have to say the first thing that crossed my mind on Sunday at Hungary was what the hell Ferrari had done to the car. The engine failure at the end heightened those thoughts. I'm not saying it's illegal, but I think they pushed the engine outside its comfort zone. Kimi's slow down and "rear of the car" reasoning almost as soon as Massa's engine let go seems to confirm this.

Exactly what it sounds like to me. I don't think that it's intentional in this particular case, but that's how it would work. Let's say it was the water pump which failed, causing the engine to overheat.

Let's say Ferrari decides that a re-design of the water pump is in order.

If Ferrari's engineers are worth a nickel, their new water pump design will not only be more reliable, but also more efficient. They'll design the impeller to be more efficient--perhaps out of a lighter alloy. Perhaps the cooling fluid itself will be re-designed.

However it works, pumping the coolant around is a parasitic loss, and reducing that will increase HP to the wheels. Voila, another .5 hp found. Repeat that over several dozens of incidents, and you get "oh shit, the Ferrari engine is way more powerful!"

I think the difference is perhaps that the Renault engineers are/were a little too ethical.

The same thing happened to Roush, a huge NASCAR team. NASCAR said only so many sanctioned tests, and the teams can only use Goodyear tires at sanctioned tests. The spirit of that rule means only so many tests.

Everyone but Rousch went out and tested lots, with Hoosiers or what have you. Rousch thought he was on the moral & regulatory high ground, only to finally concede he was being a little too "spirit" and not enought "letter."

I honestly think it's more a matter of "damn, I wish we had thought of that!" than "they're cheating!" Though it could have started out as the latter.

my thoughts exactly,but problem for Renault atm can be they do not have neither staff nor resources
to do something like that in a short period of time or ever again...Renault cut half their resources in Viry...
I have a feeling , once they realized this loopholes Renault tried to exploit rules as well,but obviously without success...quite possibly reason is the fact I mentioned before...
I read somewher that some important staffers in engine departament started leaving company at the end of 2006 knowing what is going to happenn

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only engine that has been checked so far this season was Lewis dubble winning one from Silverstone and Hockenheim.
It would have been Max's most wet dream come true if someting illegal had been found on that one.
After what happend at Hungaroring it would have been very interesting and a good opportunity to check out Kimi's engine.

yup, they even invested in a new gauging-system and the Merc was supposed to be its victim ...

Well,you are

You.

I have read that 8 cars, 6 teams were engine tested for conformity after Germany.
Anybody know the outcome?

Where did you read that? What teams, what cars?
Please name the source of this.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69428


It hasn't been reported that any engines other than the Merc have been tested yet.

But what exactly is the problem why can't a Ferrari engine give more power under the current rules then a Renault engine? Maybe Ferrari just had a better engine when the engine freeze came in?

An earlier poster commented perhaps Ferrari were a victim of this rule interpretation and it does make sense. Ferrari seemed to have found their reliability this year and to have an engine blow 2 laps from the end is beyond strange. When I saw Massa's car stricken, it was like a knife went through my ear and I screamed out loud, "how the fcu% can that happen??!!" Well, this would certainly seem to explain it, and now I do believe these rumors and hersay.

I know Ferrari have updated there lubrication system, I think they may well have gone too aggressive. It could enplane their increase in power and their necessity for more cooling. If so they may have to ask for a re-design and loose some of that increase in power. Next year where louvers are banned I think Ferrari might have a big aero problem.

I think it's total sour grapes on behalf of Renault (or maybe just Flavio)

Engines were frozen and, as Frank Williams points out, certain components can be changed if the FIA approve.
Also, all ancilliaries surrounding the engine can be developed.

So lubricants, changed exhaust systems (the bits that can be developed anyway) allied to maybe a few altered parts internally due to unusually high wear rates (again I point out, approved by the FIA) could quite conceivably give a performance increase.


As for Renault ... they should be asking why their oil/lubricant supplier isn't bringing the goods with new solutions. They should be asking their engine development team why they can't get additional gains from developing what they are allowed to. And maybe they should push the envelope a little with changed internal parts - after all, the FIA can only say "no", right?

Was this the first race for Kimi's engine or the second?

If it's the first, and there is a problem to that extent then he would surely have to change engine and take the subsequent penalty. If it's the second race, then they couldn't have introduced uprated components between races.

AFCA posted in the F2008 thread that a conrod went, because of a counterbalance weight. Also two or three months ago that among Ferrari's engine changes have been pistons, and someone else said they'd recessed the valves by 0.3 mm.

So putting all that together, I'm guessing that perhaps the new pistons make a bit more power and/or are lower friction using the new oil system, but are heavier, and needed a bit more counterbalancing. Then with an original-spec conrod that's only just in tolerance...bang.

If that's the case, I wonder what they'll do? More intensive testing of the conrods I suppose, if that's an option, otherwise it's lower revs or back to the old pistons??? I don't see the other teams agreeing to any more "reliability" mods now

Can someone explain to me that joke FW is citing? I just don't get the punch line.