Yes definitely Kimi was fighting with Kubica and Heikki during qualy, but just as we have seen in so many previous races, expect Kimi's race pace to be quite dominant. Lewis will be preying to both keep Kubica behind him at the start and hoping Kimi does not slip through on Kubica at the start.

I actually expect Kimi to fight Lewis for second during the race, and should he get ahead of Kubica at the start then we could have an interesting race on our hands between the Ferrari's for victory.

But no way is Heikki or Kubica going to run at the same pace as Kimi during the race. We'll find our for sure in a few hours.

If Kimi gets past Kubica at the start, Kubica will not be able to stay in touch.

BS

If Heikki has no race pace, he could always let LH pass and block the others. But in this case we would see the obvious always, McLaren is a 1 car team, it's simpler to just put Heikki heavy so he never will get in touch with Homilton

Being heavy Heikki will never get to show his pace. His race pace isnt enough to keep in touch the other due being heavy, but with lighter and being up in front it would be easier.

With pole position being so important in modern day F1, even if Heikki did have an advantage over Lewis in qualy pace or setup, he should fuel just enough to still be able to fight for pole. This is not what is happening and why Mclaren i think is open to so much criticism on this point.

Heikki should carry 1-2 laps more fuel than Lewis and still be able to fight him for the best grid slot but this is not what is happening and i think this is what most are unhappy about. Mclaren seem to fuel him a lot more then what his qualy speed advantage would enable him to carry.

I for one don't mind, its a team sport, Heikki is number 2 in the team and he seems happy with this so it is his own fault, not that of his team.

In a way i feel sorry for Heikki because it is almost like he has no option, he saw from 2007 what happens if you try and challenge for number 1 within the team and would prefer to be number 2 in a top team than equal number 1 in a team going no where.

Let's see when Heikki and Lewis both pit, hopefully it wont be determined by SC periods and simply on fuel load alone.

Heikki is definitely heavier than Lewis just as Kimi is heavier than Massa, IMO.

The truth of the matter is that since being outqualified in Turkey, Hamilton has only been bettered by his teammate in three sessions - once when Kovalainen had an extra run near the end and twice at Silverstone when the Finn was given the lighter fuel load.

So in sessions with equal fuel loads and equal runs, that's 12-1 to Hamilton in the last seven races. On the one occasion the Finn was quicker, he was awarded the lighter Q3 fuel load.

Hopefully the Hamilton Anti Fan Club can appreciate what those figures mean to the team, and what the Finn needs to do if he is going to get the first choice when it comes to strategy.

1- Well the last time Raikkonen got a dominant race pace his exaust exploded. All his other performances sicne then were no more than ordinary.

2- Kimi will only fight for 2nd place if he manages to jeep 4th, which I doubt, he should lose it to Kova at the start.

3- Massa is just too light. Kimi is just too far away from the top. Your Ferrari race fight, which is not shared by lots of BB's here is a dream, and certainly will not happen tomorrow, as Ferrari has never let their drivers fight.

1. You may want to check the sources of that information, Kimi's race pace has been on most occassions the best of the field when in clean air, it's his qualifying performances which have been poor and it is his race pace i was specifically commenting on. Have a look at his consecutive laptimes during practice, only Massa was at the same level.

2. Yes this is my opinion also, but you fail to consider the fact that there is no clean racing line on either side of the grid, so starting on one side or the other is really no advantage at all. Have a look at the replays during practice and qualy and you will see the preferred racing line being straight between both sides of the grid.

3. My Ferrari race fight is down to the team allowing their drivers to race each other up until the last stops while allowing their drivers to have comparable fuel loads for qualy. Should Kimi get in front of Kubica at the start, given that there is no clean line on Kubica's side of the track and that historically the Ferrari has enjoyed better starts than most would leave Kimi fighting Lewis for 2nd before the first stop.

I believe it is fair to say that Kimi would probably have more fuel than Lewis and should, using Ferrari's race pace be able to leap frog Lewis at the first stops. This of course is the ideal situation for Kimi and Ferrari.

However given all the information we have, a lack of racing line on one side of the grid, and Ferrari's race pace demonstrated during all FP sessions i think Kimi and Ferrari have a decent chance of a 1,2 this afternoon.

Only a few more hours to go, we will have the answer shortly.

I agree with you 100%, its definately better for the team to make Lewis No1 driver and increases their chances to win races. Thats infact the entire point of making a driver No 1.

I wouldnt know what those figures mean to the team and unless you work for Mclaren you dont either. Im not aware of any rule in the team that gives strategy preference in the way you just described. These inventions by Hamilton fanboys to justify his No 1 status are just that, inventions.

Back when Trulli and Alonso were Renault team mates the situation was very similar in that Trulli was a match in qualifying but slow in the races, but Alonso had no favours, and even until the very end, Trulli was allowed to block Alonso in races, like Spa 04, when they were running 1-2 with Alonso clearly faster all over trulli, but no team help, no trulli almost driving off the track to let 'Flavio's boy' past. Just blocking while the rest of the grid caught them. I agree thats not the smartest strategy and Mclarens current bias is smart, but with all that in mind, with all this help, Hamilton must win the WC. To not do the job with such a car and so much help from the team, and against such weak opponents, would be an embarrassing failure.

No, it makes sense to do what McLaren do - decide on a lead driver on a race by race basis to maximise the results week on week. It also ensures neither driver gets lazy. The one time that Kovalainen has bettered Hamilton through practice was at Silverstone, and he got the lo-fuel strategy. And it's no invention, either. It's always been that way, even going so far back as Australia 2007.

After the early runs in Q2 there Hamilton was quicker. Alonso HAD to make a second run, wasting a set of tyres that pissed him off, in order to ensure that he got the better race strategy. It was the first of many annoyances that Alonso had with McLaren's refusal to designate a clear #1 driver.

You may think it's a Hamilton fanboy fabrication, but Alonso learned otherwise.

It's just a theory with no proof whatsoever. Q2 is there just to make it trough. It's hardly the optimal team strategy to decide it based on what happens to happen in Q2

What can happen in Q3 and race is more important...

There's plenty of proof - circumstantial, anecdotal and reported. Apart from Australia the other one that made a major splash was Monaco - when Alonso put in the fastest time of anybody the entire weekend in Q2, when the cars were easily the class of the field and could have cruised to Q3. If Q2 was just there to make it through then why risk blowing the car to pieces on the walls by going that fast? The pre-set strategies there were wildly different and there were high stakes to play for, as I recall.

How about Mark Hughes words, that be ok?

" Teams have their own way of deciding which of their drivers get preference, but at McLaren at the start of the season the system was that whichever was quicker in second qualifying got to choose which of the pre-decided options to go for."

Now that changed once 'equality' became the watchword, but there is no reason to believe they have abandoned that Q2 approach - evidence seems to support it.

You can believe what you like, and you can shove your rolling eyes where the sun don't shine, too.

Equal status does not mean equal chances or equal ability. At this time, Kovalainen is not as quick as Hamilton, he may yet be, but not now. You, and others like you, seem to think that McLaren should handicap Hamilton and force him to drive more slowly and allow Kovalainen to catch up to prove to you that they have "equal status"; even if it means that McLaren win neither the World nor Constructors Championships. Are you also suggesting that Ferrari should hang lead weights on Massa's car so that Raikkonen can appear to be doing better?

Life is not fair, that A is faster than B is not proof that B is being treated unfairly.

I am, of course, fully aware that this logical and reasoned explanation of the situation will make not one jot of difference to your prejudiced viewpoint, but I venture it in the hope that it may cause you at least one seconds reflection before you dismiss it out of hand... (An ordinary elipsis this time, I'm not exasperated with myself)

Last corner should be a good overtaking place. The optimal line goes from the outside, so it's easy to dive to the inside. And if the defender picks inside, the attacker can pick outside and get a good run to the main straight

Judging from GP2 actions this weekend.

Im suggesting they both have equal chances in qualifying. You are suggesting they dont, and instead handicapp Heikki, and thats not equal status. Hamilton being quicker should have nothing to do with it. Schumacher was always quicker than his team mates but that didnt make everyone accept his status.

You dont seem to see how biased you are. You are attacking me for suggesting they handicap Hamilton (even though im not) and dont seem to realize that they are constantly handicapping Heikki. Astounding.

I agree but A always being lighter than B is proof.


Your explanation was a strawman argument. No one accepts them.

I wonder how accurate what he says is and if that is still the system. I doubt it.

WHAT!!?!?!?!!?!?!!?

When teams used to have a spare car, that spare car was always set up for MS no matter where he qualified and you're his status as number1 in the team wasnt accepted

True, but i dare say he deserved such status.

I went to a football match yesterday. Something that always annoys me is that most supporters around me could only see one way. EVERY decision the officials made against their team was wrong. Every contact with one of their own team should have seen a foul awarded. Nothing the opposition did was worth clapping etc.. All quite depressing to me.

Now I've always thought "one eye" syndrome was a football disease. But judging by the quality of some of the posts here it is something some F1 fans suffer from too.

"One eyed" posts, extolling only virtues on one side and hatred for the other, tend to elicit mainly one eyed responses, with no room for analysis or learning. And so arguments degenerate to childish banter at best, potentially driving out people who wish to share insight and ideas.

I guess this is a long winded way of saying something like *don't feed the trolls*. But, once a site has a certain percentage of "one eyes", is there any hope?

Let's not kid ourselves here. It doesn't matter how good an argument someone else makes or what proof they present, you're never going to accept any kind of criticism of Alonso or praise of Hamilton/McLaren. I think that's fairly clear.

Good anlysis.

Taking inspiration from another poster, may I suggest the label 'one-eyed pirates'?
Of course, they are marginally less blind than the 'no-eyed dears'.

The one thing I did'nt like yesterday (on TV) was the track side marshalls cheering when Lewis spun, left me feeling unconfident in them

One feature this forum really needs is the facility to hide posts that quote people on your ignore list. Wouldn't be hard to program, and would really make many threads more readable.

not possible, the quoted post is parsed into just formatted text in the next persons reply field

Looked like one of them gave him the finger as well....

But you just search the string... "Originally posted by "

Class.

As has been said before, F1 in Spain began with Alonso and will no doubt finish with him too.

In the meantime we'll just have to put up with mindless boorish behaviour whenever the circus visits. I would hope the Spanish governing body would take action but sadly, on the evidence of last year's events, they appear to be Marca readers too.

The Trulli-Alonso situation at Renault was quite different for two reasons:

a) Trulli was ahead of Alonso in the championship while Kovalainen is far behind Hamilton.

b) The Renault drivers were nowhere near fighting for the title so you might as well let them race each other.

And another thing: The lighter strategy is not always the better. If it were, one driver in each team would always be on the lightest strategy of them all: The 1 lap strategy. Clearly this strategy would be wrong since the fuel strategy must always be a compromise between qualifying strategy and race strategy. This leads to the conclusion that there must exist one optimal strategy and only one driver per team can use this strategy and the other one will have to use a compromised strategy.

Now why does everyone assume that the compromised strategy is always the heavier one?

Of course it is also possible that, given the different abilities of two drivers, the optimal strategy is not the same for both drivers, in which case none of the drivers have to compromise their strategy.


Then why are you always bitching and complaining about it? You make it sound like it is sound like it is some conspiracy and they are hurting Kovalainen just to make Hamilton look better.

I did a small search because is good to put through a case with facts instead of just arguing with your heart.


AUSTRALIA 1:26.572 / 1:25.187 / 5 / 4 / 18 /22 1:25.664 1:25.452
MALAYSIA 1:35.392 / 1:34.627 7 / 3 19 / 20 1:35.227 1:34.759
BAHRAIN 1:32.750 1:31.922 3 3 - - 1:33.057 1:31.718
SPAIN 1:21.366 1:20.825 5 6 21 DNF 1:21.430 1:20.817
TURKEY 1:26.192 1:26.477 6 6 16 P 1:26.736 1:26.290
MONACO 1:15.582 1:15.322 7 8 1:15.295 1:15.389
CANADA 1:16.909 1:17.034 5 8 1:17.287 1:17.684
FRANCE 1:15.634 1:15.293 6 6 1:15.965 1:15.639
BRITAIN 1:20.288 1:19.537 3 3 1:19.957 1:19.597
GERMANY 1:15.218 1:14.603 3 6 1:15.476 1:14.855
HUNGARY 1:19.376 1:19.473 3 6 1:19.945 1:19.480
VALENCIA 1:38.464 1:37.954 6 7 1 :38.656 1:38.120


It might be tough to read thru, but the first two times are lewis q1 and q2 times then the corresponding number of laps he did in q2 and the pit lap number in the first four races. The last two times are for kovas q1 and q2. The only time kova was quicker in q2 in bahrain, spain and turkey. Unfortunately he had an accident in spain and got a puncture in turkey so is diffiult to know whether he was lighter or heavier from pit stops. In turkey lewis was doing three stops anyway a completely different strategy. Lewis had an accident in bahrain so it was also impossible to deduce who was heavier. In all the other races lewis has pitted earlier.

If you look at all other races lewis has been quicker in q2 when both drivers have basically the same car and the same amount of fuel. Infact you can see that sometimes kova has been given few more laps than lewis to prove his raw pace. Unfortunately he has failed. I was actually suprised that he was slower in q2 in silverstone but got the lighter fuel load . It can be argued and if i remember correctly kova was quicker all weekend during practice at silverstone and maybe that is why he was favoured. It was thus shocking to see his racepace on sunday. The understanding in mclaren this season is that whoever is quicker in q2 gets to go light. The other factor to consider is his race pace. It would make no sense to give kova a lighter car if his race pace is like it has been. He needs to improve both in q2 and in race if he has to have any chance of getting a low fuel load.

There is no favoritsm, just pure common-sense.

KERS old bean, you appear to be suffering from "Luc Picardianism" in actually believing that by saying "Make it so" actually works in real life. Your ability to indulge in the creation of logical fallacies is, in the words of David Coleman, quite remarkable.

You make statements unsubstantiated by facts of any colour, and then cast calumny and contumely upon anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Williams and McLaren are known for their impartiality, even to the detriment of their championship chances. Trawl back through the archives of McLaren over the last 15 to 20 years and demonstrate to us that McLaren have been in any way biased against Finnish drivers in favour of British ones - and don't expect support for that point of view from one David Coulthard!

Were you to preface your postings with words to the effect of "This is my opinion", your entries might be more acceptable.

Don't feed the trolls mate. You are just wasting your time with some people who still believe that the earth is flat just looking into the garden from their window. They can't get the bigger picture.

Yeah saw that, nothing for Lewis to worry about though, there are no gravel traps in Valencia which would require a tractor to lift him out of so he should be ok.

Speaking of TrackSide Marshalls....

What I did'nt like to see was how many of them use the escape holes in the fencing, as peekaboo spots......is that right?

I lost count at how many times I saw from in-car, a head or upper body leaning right out of the fencing........I am reminded of Melbourne 2001, though I know that was differnt at a part of the car got through that gap.....

But..should Marshalls really be sticking their heads out of that fencing hole?......I can imagine a smash a 100m up the track or so, and them getting...well......you can imagine.....

.

It will be interesting to see how vigorously they wave the blue flags if Hamilton gets as far as lapping some competitors.

I am sure that they will all be totally professional in their dealings with any driver.

Let's hope so. I'm sure the idiots seen on TV were atypical.

They (Williams, McLaren) wouldn't be better than any other team just becase they are british, would they? I think, old bean, that you suffering from memory of convenience.

Clearly not, after many years of Ferrari dominance courtesy of a Schumacher/Todt/Brawn triumvirate.

It appears I was wrong, I just watched Hamilton do nearly a whole lap behind a back-marker, and not a single waved blue flag did I see!

I dont assume the heavier one is always compromised but always being heavier is. Today was the perfect example when Heikki was held up by Kubica early on. Mclaren cost them selves a podium.


Because many deny Hamilton is being helped.