How do they constantly allow Kimi to qualify behind top-2 and struggle to finish on a podium, despite his race pace is very good, in fact better than Massa's? Take Ross Brawn back...

If they put Kimi 5 laps less in recent qualifyings, he would always make it to podium with ease, even win a race

Maby Kimi should do better in qualifying. Kimi and Kubica both stopped on the same lap in valencia but Kubica was faster than Kimi in qualifying, and the BMW is a slower car.

I agree micra, I've thought about it too!
Even if he'll lose time in the race by pitting earlier and running heavier than say LH and FM for a few laps, he won't lose as much as he does now starting 4th or something and then being caught behind RK or HK for 20 or so laps.
But Ferrari must have a reason, maybe they calculated he would've gone 1-2 10ths faster...but he couldn't, made a small mistake or something everytime.
I dearly hope they'll come up with a good strategy for him at Spa. Last year he was 1 lap lighter than FM I think, and just got pole, they should do the same this year too, or at least not heavier.
Kimi must succeed at Spa, it's his track!

That's exactly the reason for why they should try fuel him lighter than the rest, he'll probably make up for it with better race pace. At least he shouldn't lose as much as being stuck...

One thing which come to my mind is that being lighter is also an advantage in case of safety car. Maybe Ferrari/Massa dont like to take that away from Massa if he has slight performance edge in qualifying? But what about race performance? Is it fair that Kimi is trapped behind slow cars and given another dissadvantage due qualifying? Dont think so.

Even if there was an agreement based on qualifying to give him more fuel, I dont see the point of giving him more than 1 extra lap compared to Massa. With 1 lap Kimi might even jump Massa in pits like in Malaysia

What's the point of overfilling a driver who has a qualifying problem? The qualifying is too close for that.

I wonder if Ferrari share the same strategist with BMW-Sauber, who seem to "allow" Nick Heidfeld to qualify constantly outside of the top 10 while his teammate goes top 4... :\

Ferrari and Kimi need to sort out qualifying before they can maximise the potential of strategies.

Ross Brawn and Schumcher pulled off alot of flankers in the past, but always remember, Schumi was always usually ahead of his teamate, Kimi right now can't even qualify near Massa or ahead of him, as people expect him to do, it hasn't been the Kimi of Mclaren/michein just yet, that's the issue, and f1 tracks especially with these cars, an't going to make races easier.

But when Kimi sorts this out, things will improve, Spa is only the start of his last races rampage.

Spot on. I keep hearing people saying..."If only Ferrari would stop putting so much fuel in Kimi's car...." blah blah blah... Get over it. Kimi needs to improve his performances, and needs to adapt to the car better than he has been for most of his time at Ferrari. The pace is in the car, Felipe is clear proof of that. Kimi even fuel adjusted has been nowhere near Felipe of late and that is disturbing for any tifoso. I understand the implication and the knock on effect of not being able to bring his front tyres up to temp, over a lap, but in reality it is a problem that is not inherent in the Ferrari, but with the way Kimi himself uses the Ferrari.

The problem rests squarely on Kimi's shoulders and he needs to up his game. Pure and simple. More fuel/less fuel... it all comes to nothing, when you can't even get near your team mate over a lap.... fueling him lighter and him ending up further back on the grid through a mistake or bad lap would be even more disastrous. He has always preferred the Ferrari with more fuel, (and thus weight/inertia and heat generation for his tyres), so can people please stop banging on about fueling him lighter... it would just exacerbate the problem in my opinion.

I agree Lorenzo, Kimi and Ferrari has to sort out his performances in qualifying first. A strategy can only make up for so much, the rest is up to the driver. It doesn't matter how fantastic your strategy is if your qualifying in 4th/5th and 6th, losing places at the start and getting stuck behind a slower car in your opening stint because of an inability to overtake and losing time to the front runners. You need to get the position in qualifying first by getting the performance out of the tyres. This currently isn't happening. Fuelling even lighter and still being in 5th and 6th place and unable to overtake, just means your probably going to end up further down the field come the end of the race.

I think people are mistaking fuelling heavy as the cause of the problem not as a result of the problem, that being in order to get the tyre performance in the first place in Qualy Kimi is fuelling heavier to get more aggressive tyre wear. Felipe doesn't have the same problem, so doesn't need to fuel as heavy to get the performance and thus can get on pole. The crucial issue is the qualifying, not the strategist IMHO.

Sad really that nowadays alot of races are heavily dictated by who gets on pole position which is making life difficult for Kimi given his current predicament.

Kubica made the podium in the 5th best car and was fueled exactly the same as Kimi for the race. Kimi is under performing, it has nothing to do with Ferrari's strategies ..

WHAT A LOAD OF BS! Dont write the stuff if you havent checked the facts first. Kimi has been very close to Massa fuel corrected even in the last 3 races. You are making up stuff, I dont know what is your purpose.

This one we keep hearing as well - with no proof whatsoever. I cannot imagine any reason why Kimi would need more fuel to get the car working.. in the race he is usually the best driver when his car is light BTW...

Rubbish. You can do the math. Give Kimi less fuel, he will put it in front row. And from there he will finish first or second with ease, third at worst. It's not a rocket science.

0.1 sec isnt near enough for you?

Where's the logic? With less fuell he fould end further up, not further behind!

I never heard Kimi prefers heavy. Ususlly in the races where he is strongest, he gets a nice light car. Why not in other places as well?

Kubica has no race pace. If he was fueled less, everyone would come through in pits. Kimi has race pace, so there would be things to gain with an aggressive strategy.

With these strategies Ferrari is setting Kimi's race fate in qualfying - with no much hope of winning.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69359

I have a very hard time believing that Ferrari tell Kimi what strategy to use and he has no input on it.
The strategy is woked out together with the drivers and engineers. Going light is not the key to winning, if it was then everyone would go light. If you go light you enter the pits early (first) with a good chance of coming out behind a slow car and losing alot of time.

I wonder, if it was Kimi winning and Phil Massa faffing about in 3rd/4th/5th/6th and generally being beaten by his higher status team mate, that instead of 'CRISIS! Ferrari need Ross Brawn back!' type posts, no one would really be that botherd

I agree Kimi has qualifying problems. I also agree that fuelling him lighter would not solve those problems.

Still. Fuelling him lighter would give him better results, even wins. So I don't understand people saying he needs to solve his problems first. He could win races with his problems, but with less fuel.

Nothing wrong with his race pace. He's just been driving behind slower drivers all the time lately. With 5 laps less fuel he could avoid that. He would only have to drive behind slow drivers for 5 laps when they are light instead of 20 laps when they are heavy.

With a light strategy he would propably make enough gap to only drop behind the 4 or 5 fastest cars after his first stop. Being light they wouldn't even slow him at all.


So what's Kimi's email address? Someone needs to tell him to stop being stupid and heavy.

Its really not as simple as Kimi would gain 0.1 sec/lap just by being x amount of laps lighter - analysis shows that he simply doesn't perform as well with less fuel in the car (in qualifying) and so needs a heavier fuel load otherwise he might qualify in the same position or worse with a lighter one.

You can't just put the blame on the strategists - they will carefully weigh up how much to fuel the driver, with the assistance of the driver's input and usually if a driver is unhappy they get their way.

Correct, but if you have problem in qualifying what should you do?
A) qualify as normal, with the same fuel load as the others
B) qualify heavier, because you ain´t going to pole anyway. You run a longer stint behind others and hope for them
to pit earlier than you.
C) try to go as light as possible, as less weight gives you a faster car for qualifying. Track positions won (everyone
is worth 1-1.5 seconds) and the advantage of running at own pace.

I would really like to see Kimi qualify for 10-15 laps when the normal poleman pits around lap 18-20.
We know he has the fastest racepace of all, being lighter will make him even faster.

If we look at Hungary, after 10 laps Massa had an advantage of 16 seconds to Kubica down in 5:th place.
Kimi being heavy and all was trailing Alonso half a second further behind.
On Lap 15, Kimi was still in 7:th position, this time 25 seconds behind.

It´s a no brainer, you cannot qualify heavy down in 4-7:th positions and think you can gain something.

After 15 laps you can afford a pitstop and still be ahead of your original heavy qualifying strategy.
When you resume you´ll not be held up either as the ones around you will be light, and you´ll be heavy.
Most likely others will be held up untill they pit.

Depending on which lap the SC is deployed.

Let's say Massa stops on lap 15 and Kimi on lap 20. If the SC is deployed on lap 16, yeah, it's fantastic for Massa. If it does on lap 14, it's a disaster for Massa and better for Kimi.

Nope. If it's deployed on lap 14 it's ok for Massa and disaster for Kimi. It takes too much time to wait behind Massa in the pits, or try build a lead in 6 laps. There is really nothing to gain being heavy. The margin where it helps is very narrow.

It wouldn't hurt to think outside the box once in a while. Hamilton's podium at Turkey proves it.



Spa has a very long lap, which means that there's more time to properly heat tyres. Besides that, the long lap alwo means it should take longer to reach back markers. On top of it all, yellow flags aren't so easy to see as elsewhere. So it basically is the best place to try a very short first stint for a 2 or 3 stop strategy.

If Ferrari confirm their superiority in practice, I can see him opening a healthy gap in a 10 lap first stint, but he must put it on pole and not lose the lead at the start.


Come to think of it, I've convinced myself this is exactly what McLaren should do to Heiki. He'd certainly be more helpfull there than from way behind.






edit: last year Raikkonen had 8 seconds over Alonso after lap 10 and they both pitted on lap 15. After lap 20 he had 14 seconds. It would obviously be a big gamble, but if the pace is there, it does seem possible to beat at both Mclarens and BMWs on a 3 stop strategy. Massa would be a different deal, but being 2nd to him would already be huge improvement and help for the team. With some luck, he could win as well.

What is the weight penalty at Spa?

If it is deployed lap 14 its race over for Massa[15] for he would be forced to pit while the pits are closed -----> 10s stop and go.

About Kimi needing to take less fuel to compete with others, it would not help him much if at all and may in fact be detrimental to his qualifying performance cause if he can't get the tyres up to optimal temperature with a heavier car taking less fuel will make it even harder, the advantage of being light will be undone by a lack of - tyre - grip due to suboptimal tyre temperature, Imagine Kimi starting 5th with 14 laps worth of fuel. That is spelled disaster.

I dont get the bashers logic With 14 laps of fuel he would easily take pole. And if he doesnt get second attempt right, he would still be P2 at least.

With you as a fan who needs bashers BTW you don't get much of anything . period

Being 2nd with the worse strategy will not give you the win. Any agressive strategy will only work with perfect qualifying and some luck.

But it prevents you running behind Bimmers and Toyotas.

Your speculation is no better than micra's.

People with no ability to think logically should keep their mouth shut.

are you out of your mind..?

Ferrari needs better drivers more. And ultimately they need a team leader who is currently absent.

Bad dancer always complain on his balls which prevent him to dance properly.

he still needs to be faster than Massa in Q2 in order for him to pick his strategy first. Since Massa is faster than Kimi in almost all of the Q2 he choses his strategy first, as he prefers a lighter car, Kimi's second option is a window of laps which are all heavier than massa.. Together with his engineer they decide if they want to be 1,2,3 or 4 laps heavier than his teammate but not lighter...
Massa explained this in very detail in an interview for Globo TV.. (Brazilian channel)

What race did you watch? The one I watched in Valencia was one where Kimi could not keep up with Kubica or Heikki. Before we can start talking about winning races he needs to be able to keep up with the 3'rd and 4'th placed drivers. In Hungary he had the speed to win but there he made a mistake on his qual run. In Valencia he had no speed in qual or the race.

well, how many times more: aggressive strategy is for good qualifiers , defensive strategy is for bad qualifiers. kimi is lately being the later.

Stop trolling. His results have been based on great qualifying and ok race pace. In the races he loses a bit every lap and he cannot get a good result if others are able to run in free air without time consuming incidents.

Yeah sure.. you are the one who said Kubica has no race pace so who is trolling..?

The valencia I watched he was trapped behind slow cars all race. He was out of pit stop window for passing anyone in the race so there was no really point in pushing for fast laps... Only before the the second pit stop he closed 10 sec to heikki he had lost at the end of first stint behind massa and at the beginning of second stint behind toyota.

If you lack qualifying speed, taking more fuel doesnt solve a thing. I just ruins your race even more.

You seem to be unable to make distinction between race pace and race position.

BTW, what else would you except when you make questions like "are you out of your mind"? This is not an enjoyable place anymore, taken over by the likes of you.

because you are probably comparing Ferrari's lap times with Kubica's to judge his pace. ..He is not driving neither a Ferrari nor a Mclaren yet he still beat Kova and Kimi and you claim he has no race pace.. ..You don't know what you are saying really.... IF he had no race pace he would have been leapfrogged by the mclaren and Ferrari in the pits..

EDIT: I see that you've edit your post with a bunch a insults.. .I can see now who is in need of medication.

he has no race pace (driving the car he is driving). Happy now?

He wasnt leapfrogged by anyone, because HK was heavy and slow, and Kimi was with same pit window as him and behind HK too.

But RK was the slowest of those, and the reason why FM came out of pits in front of KR.

Heavy fueling is Kimis own choice and decision. Stop blaming Ferrari for him underperforming.

Micra, explain how Kubica having the same fuel load and driving a slower car qualified and finished higher then Kimi?

My two random ideas:

1. Since getting heat into the tires seem to be the problem, why not do two warm up laps before the flying lap instead of one?

2. Given that Kimi seems to drive quite well with a heavy car, could doing one less stop than the other top drivers work? Possibly with a shortish first stint.

Didnt I already answer that? Because he qualified well and Kimi didnt have a strategy to beat him.

It's not worth it if Massa and Hamilton come out from first stop in front of him. It could work if Kimi was able to qualify better. If you lack qualifying pace but have race pace, it' better start up front and have a free road to use it.

Maybe worth trying in Monza, a circuit which favors less pit stops than normal circuits. Last year it would have worked out if not for his neck problem.

Hey Micra, what about your corrected 2008 performance ranking?

Kimi still ahead of Massa and Hamilton?

fastest qualifying lap
0,000 Benchmark
0,149 Massa
0,205 Hamilton
0,326 Raikkonen
0,341 Kovalainen
0,403 Kubica
0,622 Alonso
0,638 Trulli
0,682 Webber
0,740 Heidfeld
0,778 Glock
1,063 Coulthard
1,128 Rosberg
1,145 Vettel
1,184 Button
1,351 Piquet
1,364 Nakajima
1,404 Barrichello
1,526 Bourdais
2,179 Fisichella
2,425 Sutil


fastest race lap
0,000 Benchmark
0,220 Raikkonen
0,416 Massa
0,451 Hamilton
0,525 Heidfeld
0,608 Kovalainen
0,638 Kubica
1,051 Alonso
1,058 Trulli
1,129 Webber
1,183 Rosberg
1,230 Vettel
1,301 Glock
1,389 Coulthard
1,440 Piquet
1,444 Button
1,574 Bourdais
1,592 Barrichello
1,758 Fisichella
1,759 Nakajima
2,156 Sutil

I dont know a crap about car setup science but doesnt more fuel bring more load into tyres, meaning more heat?

Btw, I remember Salo or somebody saying that with fast car every tactic looks brilliant in the race.

I also thought about that!
And often Kimi is the one who goes out first and sometimes he could also try a second run at his last attempt as he crosses the line before the time runs out. So why doesn´t he try to improve his time? I know they calculated the fuel and so on but isn´t it more important to gain a place at the starting grid?

Probably not. But then again, last race Massa came out ahead of him anyway.

Yep, I'm quite certain it could work if he qualified in third position behind only Massa and Hamilton.

Short first stint, normal second stint and then a long third stint perhaps? But then he really can't afford to screw up his qualifying lap and get stuck behind a Toyota. Or maybe even a three stopper, this really seems like one of those situations where he should try something completely different from the others.

Most likely though, is that there is no way to solve this problem simply by manipulating the fuel load.

What are these? Average gaps to the fastest time?