He got that drive-through for lapping Wurz under yellows. Both he and Wurz testified there weren't yellows waved at that place. Plus it turned out the penalty was told to Ferrari later (past the time limit) than it should have. Therefore I think in the hindsight the penalty was lifted.

IIRC he did serve the 10s stop and go in the pitlane before he crossed the S/F, so additional time was not added, the 25s - equivalent time - penalty was instituted after that race to stop teams using the same tactic again.

I think many of his penalties were actually justified. And his average could be even higher if he had also got the penalties he would have deserved last year...

No, it was not lifted he served it in the pitlane shortly before crossing the S/F line[in the pits that is!], so he took the flag in the pitlane...

That was in the race. But after that, when McLaren protested it, IIRC, it was conclueded that the penalty wasn't justified in first place.

He had 10s added to his race time though, I think.

It was that incident that led to the rules being changed to the current 25s addition.

Out of interest, how much time is lost at Spa for driving down the pitlane? Not 25s surely?

Gosh this thread just exploded....

- Felipe black flag had to happen, since Montoya the year (or two years) before made the headlines with that
- Schumacher, Schumacher and Schumacher... seems that some stewards never liked Schumacher

the 1 million I do find noticeable... that was a "real fine"

I remember that one. That was the one Senna said he couldn't see the flag either due to it positioning.

I'd be interested to know if any McLaren driver deliberately hit an opponent and got away with it, since a Ferrari driver did not.

No he did stop at the Ferrari pits and serve the time before crossing the line or so i remember... otherwise he would have risked to b DSQ for not serving the penalty during the race! As you have said there were no mechanism for time addition/compensation at the time.


I have no idea how much is lost there, but If someone was to do what MS did in a generic track they would not lose 25s* anyway because they would only need to go half-pitlane before crossing the S/F line, the trick is then not cross it before the lane...SPA would be impossible I think


*hence the mandatory 25s addition.

Ah ok, didn't knew. Thanks

Schumacer finished the race before the penalty (s/f line was before the ferrari pit) and got 10 seconds added to his time, then later removed

1998 rules
http://www.jomenvisst.de/fia/1998Sp...Regulations.htm
e) If an Incident for which a time penalty is imposed occurs with 12 or less complete laps remaining to the finish of the race, the stewards shall have the right to add the time penalty to the elapsed time of the driver concerned.
The penalty in question was 10 seconds


Atlasf1 report with 10 seconds removed from Schumachers lead, down to 12
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/98/bri/burley.html

Final result with Schumacer 22 seconds in the lead
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1998/172/

People seem to forget the big one: Schumi losing all his points for attempting to crash out Villeneuve in 97.

Technically only losing the second place in the '97 championship, but keeping the points

That was FIA penalty at it's best

How can anyone come up with such a crap than FIA

What I saw in the race was that abuot 20-21 seconds in pits where not enough to be in front...
I guess they lost about 15-20 sec by driving through the pits (I know 15-20 is not very accurate, but that's my best bet)

Might have to give NM a break on this one - wasn't that the race when both Mansell and a Benetton were waved out after the start, then subsequently disqualified to the utter confusion of both teams ? I just remember Nigel Roebuck's line "Officials disqualified Mansell and xxxx, and they should also have disqualified themselves from positions of authority at a Grand Prix."

I understand its confusing! Remember he did - in the final lap - go to the pits rather than take the flag "normally" i.e. the track S/F line, hence why I - still - think that MS did serve the penalty* and there were no time addition. Because If am not very much mistaken "we" say the Ferrari tkaing the count down in their pits!

in fact this is from the link above


*) There would be no difference between the two methods re gap - time wise - vis a vis MH, especially if he finished the race[crossed the S/F line] before he served the penalty!

In early 1994 didn't Larini have some slip of the tongue in an interview and refer to a TC device in the Ferrari?

He did go to the Ferrari pit and they did the 10 sec stop and go, but the race had already finished at that time, he got 10 seconds added to his time that were later removed when the stewards reviewed the data. His lead over Hakkinen was restored to 22 seconds.

Article from the archive discussing this race and the rules involved
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/98/bri/gordon.html

ITV report the penalty here around 6:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOb7jMdKLLg

The stop&go is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUmjJQkIHY

Oh, but it's better than that, since the McLaren driver in question didn't just deliberately punt any old opponent, but an opponent in a Ferrari. Never mind keeping the points, the deliberate act secured this McLaren driver his championship.

Look at dear old Ted Kravitz on the right not speaking.... should have stayed that way

Massa/Coulthard Melbourne - No penalty - Ferrari

Kovy/Webber Spa - Penalty - McLaren

Kovy/Webber - Spa - Penalty - McLaren

Schumacher/Coulthard - Argentina 98 - No Penalty - Ferrari

Coulthard/Schumacher - Spa 98 - No Penalty - McMerc

That was DC's fault...

That clip was 1997, Team orders were the norm and accepted practice from 1950 to 1998 in Formula 1. That also is for another thread.

Well since Senna did the same thing in a McClaren and didn't lose any points, I think sst fair to say the FIA is particulary harsh on Ferrari drivers.

Yes Hungaroring when he past a car under red flag, and Alonso for being brake tested Dornbors (sp?).

These incidents are nothing alike, watch them again.

Drive through penalty at Magnycours 2002 when he crossed the white line out from his pits stop. Funny thing was that he was not the only driver who got penalty for crossing the white line. First Massa, then Michael, then Ralf, and the last was DC.

A German fellow with a big chin was excluded from the world championship in 97 while driving for Ferrari.

But that is not the same situation at all. I was asking for same scenario not punished.

This reminded me of the old joke " What is the worlds thinnest book? "

"What is the worlds shortest forum thread? FIA punishments of Ferrari".

Regards

Andy

Nothing debatable in my book about Hekki penalty. You can't stick your nose in on the apex of a corner and tag someone on the rear wheel. Make it to sidepod and maybe you got a case....but clipping someones wheel at the apex is drive thru penalty in my book.

The Lewis penalty sucked no doubt. But dragging Hekki's into it might be going a bit too far.

I always was under the impression Mansell and Nanini in the Benneton where given the green light at the end of the pitane - they switched tires at the end of the formation lap, to wets or slicks i cant remember, i think it was wet but drying or somthing - but when they got the green light, the race hadnt even started as the cars were either still forming on the grid, or sat waiting for the go....so technicaly where they a full lap down? Or a full lap ahead?

The TV coverage did catch the moment, but i think murray missed it. You saw a flash of red then green exit the pits.

I remember that, IIRC they were trying to make a statement against the water tanks the Cosworth teams were using 'to cool their brakes' (i.e. run light and top off for inspection). Two normal wings bolted together and hanging over the tires...looked pretty funny. Sadly cost Gilles one of his last podiums, as he placed 3rd in the race.

Yes that's how I remember it; Ferari were making a point about creative interpretation of the rules. Incidently I have a lovely 1:43 scale model of exactly that car: Gilles' 1982 126C2 in 'Long Beach configutation' with the dual rear wing. Had it for years now..

I cant think of a single FIA punishment against aguri either. Gee, the FIA must be very biased towards aguri!!

Now, in contrast, how many times where mclaren punished and fined and appealed and still penalties upheld?

It gives me the impression ferrari does their best to adhere rulez and mclaren does not.

its sitting right here on my desk as i type this.

There is nothing debatable on Kovalainen's penalty.

The whole 2003 season was punishment, changing the rules, one lap qualifying, first qualifying arranged so championship leader goes out first and becomes the track sweeper, talk about randomness, and attempting to peanalise successful teams, which then was ferrari, the fact Michael and Ferrari struggled it out and still won was a achievement.


Even now, the fact that winning is less rewarded is a punishment on top teams, infact the rules since 2003 have been punishments not just on top teams but the fans as well, conversative 2 race engines, engine freezing

The FIA and it's steward process across the season needs sorting out, punishments have been inconsistent, Michael's Monaco 2006, penality didn't fit the crime, his foul in qualifying effected the first 10 drivers, not the whole grid, yet a certain Spanish steward sought to send him to the back, starting from the pitlane, Spanish Steward was Allonso's home advantage. Alonso would later get a tough penality at Monza, again home advantage. Stewards on some days are like bad football referees.


Hakkinen still getting pole at Monaco 1999, despite going past a yellow flag to complete it, his defence was, "I put my hand up to see it." Crazyness, Michael started 2nd, Mika still got pole


This thread should be labeled bad punishments from the FIA.

Nothing glorius or victorius about this thread title, FIA punishements have effected all sorts of drivers, teams. This has been apart of f1 for a while, wasn't Senna made a example of after Japan 1989, his title stripped for dangerous driving.

Or Senna admitting a year later he planned to take Prost out in Japan 1990, yet he still kept his title, I adored Senna, but looking at objectively, perhaps the FIA should of taken his title away from him, like some Murder case, new evidence has been found, lets give the title back to PROST!! WOO HOO. But the FIA don't have rules like that, Senna probabley shouldn't of admitted it, but he knew the rules wouldn't do anything about it after that much time, but still you wonder if he set a precedent for win at all costs, Senna actually pre-thought taking Prost out, whatever his reasons, he felt he had too

Two spring to mind apart from bargeboards, well three if you include the one Schumacher was allowed to serve after the race had finished!

Was MS not penalised for overtaking Hill on a warm-up lap at one time.

And the one where he deliberately drove into Damon Hill to stop Hill winning the Championship..............................................

And then there was the penalty for cutting the chicane twice in Hungary..............................

And then there were the times MS allowed his damaged car to roll into the middle of the circuit in order to get the race stopped so that he could hop into his spare care for the restart - That's why we now have a safety car.

Just a bit of fun - Just a bit of fun.

This must be a joke, if anything he should have been banned for the rest of the season.
MS = Cheat and a poor sportsman.

Because MS did it first it seemed bigger then what it was, but the fact is there's a large loop hole in the rules regarding drivers creating a incident to prevent qualifying from continuing, it's like football, yellow card. Didn't Fisi later in the season have a incident as well to stop quali, but wasn't punished as much. How do you really know and prove a driver mistake or he did it on purpose.

Mclaren team in 2007 and it's drivers, cheats and poor sportsmen. lucky they were not banned, that's proper cheating. Committing a foul in a quali session and getting punished for it pales in comparison to a whole organization like Mclaren cheating with it's drivers benefiting, I'm sure Lewis is still proud of his wins, but truth be told, I would of left Mclaren if they were cheating behind my back while I was driving it, Hamilton though, just wants to win, still gained from all of it in his career, can't deny that.

He exploited a 'loophole'?

He ought to have been DQ'd really.

Mclaren are lucky to even be in this season, they should be banned.


That's F1, letting people getting away with things.

Blame the sport

Senna takes out Prost in 1990, yet a year later admits he did it on purpose, keeps the title.

Come on, that's how f1 has been for a while, as long as u can get away with things, drivers will do it, as in the end.

Hakkinen didn't regret having his pole in 1999 stay intact, despite running througha a yellow flag to get it, somehow the stewards let him keep it, he was happy, no regrets.

The rules in f1 are there to be messed with, blame the sport.


It's hippocits who think Ferrari and MS are the only ones who've gottan away with things, won't admit others have too, now there is the real truth in this thread, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, or remain blind regarding everything else that happened in f1 history.

The rule book has gotten tighter and tighter over the years, television coverage improving, the amount a driver can get away with now is very little, every action is there to be looked at in detail, it wasn't like that in the past when things were not so heavily under a radar, but Michael Schumacher's era with Ferrari just happens to be the most popular and successful era, even now, were discussing it, it only addes to the myth of the man, all you hippocrits are increasing his legend in this forum, and showing bizarre stupidity regarding every other driver who has comitted wrong doings and offerences, admit your failings and be wiser for it, but maybe that would be giving too many of you credit.

But see this is where the current outrage gets tricky.

Schumacher at Monaco 2006 was an extremely poor penalty. A driver making an error and stopping his car inches away from the guardrails, is penalized for a driving error.

Regardless of what you think of Schumacher, the actions of Monaco 2006 set an extremely poor precedent, where a driver can no longer stop his car driving toward the guard rail at Monaco during qualifying, as that will mean an instant penalty.

I am no fan of Hamilton, I am far far away from being a fan of McLaren. I do however hope that the penalty from this weekend is revoked and Hamilton gets his 10 points.

Unfortunately there is a precedence on which to lean the penalty against Hamilton, and we are basically once more seeing the result of poorly written rules, coupled with an idea and concept of the cars no longer being stuck in the gravel when cutting a chicane.

But if you think Schumacher deserved his penalty in Monaco, then you are not unbiased in the matter of Hamilton either.

The problem with many posters on this board (well any F1 forum I am on really), is that they call for equality, yet will not allow or accept that equality on occasion will mean 'your man' is punished.

Few can doubt that I was a huge fan of Michael Schumahcer, however despite what I just wrote above, then the various penalties that he got, I accepted grudingly, sucked it up and moved on. Basically what Ferrari did for most of them as well. This is what a true fan of F1 should do, accept that the sport is governed and ruled according to set rules and regulations, and that when these are broken, then those who do so have to face the consequences.

1994 Schumacher did nothing wrong the FIA said so.
1997 Schumahcer did wrong the FIA said so.
2006 Schumacher did wrong thr FIA / stewards said so.

So I may feel and think about that as it may be, however I accept that this is how the regulatory body of the sport sees it, and I do not build a conspiracy into that.

Well, prost did the same, just hadn't balls to admit it.