Full Version: red bull vs torro rosso
I was wondering how come a satellite team like torro rosso outpaces their mother team? Surely it cant be all down to the Ferrari engine or does it have 60 HP more than the Renault? ANd wouldnt it be wise, regardless of pace, to put vettel next race in DC seat and tell DC dude, thank you very much for your services but this is it?
Why, that would be a punishment for Vettel. However, it'd be a nice farewell gesture for DC..
I was about to make this thread.. did anyone notice Toro Rosso are now 1 point ahead of Red Bull in the standings?! It reminds me of Super Aguri vs. Honda last year - hopefully Toro Rosso won't have the same fate.
The problem is pretty obvious to me, they picked the wrong engine for the main team. I wonder if they can swap the Renaults and Ferrari engines next year, I think with the freeze the performance difference is unlikely to change a lot...
The problem is pretty obvious to me, they picked the wrong engine for the main team. I wonder if they can swap the Renaults and Ferrari engines next year, I think with the freeze the performance difference is unlikely to change a lot...
Originally posted by equality
I was wondering how come a satellite team like torro rosso outpaces their mother team? Surely it cant be all down to the Ferrari engine or does it have 60 HP more than the Renault? ANd wouldnt it be wise, regardless of pace, to put vettel next race in DC seat and tell DC dude, thank you very much for your services but this is it?
I was wondering how come a satellite team like torro rosso outpaces their mother team? Surely it cant be all down to the Ferrari engine or does it have 60 HP more than the Renault? ANd wouldnt it be wise, regardless of pace, to put vettel next race in DC seat and tell DC dude, thank you very much for your services but this is it?
There's an interview somewhere with Newey talking about the the performance difference between the cars, he states that the cars are identical. If that's the case then either the STR drivers are better, they have found a better setup or the engine is making the difference.
Flav has been quoted as saying he talks with the FIA to adress the hp deficit. But currently, the customer ferr has loads more than the works renault. Can you imagine what kimi and massa have?
I find neweys comments almost hard to digest. Small 90 million dollar a year toro rosso has a better set up than 270 million dollar a year red bull. Staggering.
I find neweys comments almost hard to digest. Small 90 million dollar a year toro rosso has a better set up than 270 million dollar a year red bull. Staggering.
Originally posted by equality
Flav has been quoted as saying he talks with the FIA to adress the hp deficit. But currently, the customer ferr has loads more than the works renault. Can you imagine what kimi and massa have?
I find neweys comments almost hard to digest. Small 90 million dollar a year toro rosso has a better set up than 270 million dollar a year red bull. Staggering.
Flav has been quoted as saying he talks with the FIA to adress the hp deficit. But currently, the customer ferr has loads more than the works renault. Can you imagine what kimi and massa have?
I find neweys comments almost hard to digest. Small 90 million dollar a year toro rosso has a better set up than 270 million dollar a year red bull. Staggering.
But how much of that budget is for the design and build of the car? That's a sum that STR don't have to worry about.
Originally posted by Clatter
There's an interview somewhere with Newey talking about the the performance difference between the cars, he states that the cars are identical. If that's the case then either the STR drivers are better, they have found a better setup or the engine is making the difference.
There's an interview somewhere with Newey talking about the the performance difference between the cars, he states that the cars are identical. If that's the case then either the STR drivers are better, they have found a better setup or the engine is making the difference.
The engine is the main factor. I thought it's well known here. Webber claims engine difference is worth 0.4s.
Originally posted by paranoik0
... I think with the freeze the performance difference is unlikely to change a lot...
... I think with the freeze the performance difference is unlikely to change a lot...
What freeze?
KERS?
Next year is a whole new ballgame. Ferrari have said that they are having trouble implementing KERS. There may be a difference between the two teams next year, but you certainly can't project this year's engine superiority to next year's situation.
Originally posted by dgduris
What freeze?
KERS?
Next year is a whole new ballgame. Ferrari have said that they are having trouble implementing KERS. There may be a difference between the two teams next year, but you certainly can't project this year's engine superiority to next year's situation.
What freeze?
KERS?
Next year is a whole new ballgame. Ferrari have said that they are having trouble implementing KERS. There may be a difference between the two teams next year, but you certainly can't project this year's engine superiority to next year's situation.
As the engines are supposed to be frozen then yes you can project this year to next.
I wonder if the FIA will now inspect Vettel's engine. It could be nice picture into the future of Ferrari 'reliability' change applications. Not to take anything away from Vettel - I think his drive was awesome, but there's no way the GP2 team's car should be that much faster than McLarens, BMWs, the apparently identical Red Bull's and indeed, the works Ferrari.
Originally posted by AFCA
Newey on Red Bull's performances of late: ''Directly after Silverstone we dropped off, that was the case in Hockenheim, Hungary and Valencia. I'm not sure why it happened. Some of may be down to these tracks. But out sisterteam Toro Rosso didn't loose performance in this period. And with the exeption of the engine, the cars are identical in almost every part.''
'''The set-ups are extremely similar also, that's why it's hard to understand why Red Bull Racing went downwards and Toro Rosso didn't.'' At Spa things went better again: ''In Belgium RBR was competitive, only the result was dissapointing. Webber's collision with Kovailanen cost a good result. We'll see how things will be going here at Monza.''
Webber agrees with his team's headdesigner and doesn't think much will change: "Toro Rosso have the same car, they have come to grips with it now and they have the stronger engine."
Not only does the Ferrari V8 have more top end power, but also a better power curve. Only in the very low revs does the Renault V8 find good torque, but then it delivers its power in portions. They surprise the driver by unfolding quite promptly. The Ferrari engine accelerates much more progressively and also much faster. Speed checks have shown that the Toro Rosso is on top speed earlier than Red Bull. For the race at Spa the engineers opted for short gear ratios to get the cars up the hill easier. Coulthard wasn't really happy with that: "In the race we had no chance to overtake or defend our positions. The gear ratios were only good for a single lap in qualifying."
Newey on Red Bull's performances of late: ''Directly after Silverstone we dropped off, that was the case in Hockenheim, Hungary and Valencia. I'm not sure why it happened. Some of may be down to these tracks. But out sisterteam Toro Rosso didn't loose performance in this period. And with the exeption of the engine, the cars are identical in almost every part.''
'''The set-ups are extremely similar also, that's why it's hard to understand why Red Bull Racing went downwards and Toro Rosso didn't.'' At Spa things went better again: ''In Belgium RBR was competitive, only the result was dissapointing. Webber's collision with Kovailanen cost a good result. We'll see how things will be going here at Monza.''
Webber agrees with his team's headdesigner and doesn't think much will change: "Toro Rosso have the same car, they have come to grips with it now and they have the stronger engine."
Not only does the Ferrari V8 have more top end power, but also a better power curve. Only in the very low revs does the Renault V8 find good torque, but then it delivers its power in portions. They surprise the driver by unfolding quite promptly. The Ferrari engine accelerates much more progressively and also much faster. Speed checks have shown that the Toro Rosso is on top speed earlier than Red Bull. For the race at Spa the engineers opted for short gear ratios to get the cars up the hill easier. Coulthard wasn't really happy with that: "In the race we had no chance to overtake or defend our positions. The gear ratios were only good for a single lap in qualifying."
It would be seriously funny if RBR managed to get Mercedes customer engines for next season. I'd bet Ferrari and Mercedes would meet on a whole new level of competition there trying to ever increase their support so that the identical chassis was better with their engines. That would provide quite some comedy i believe.
But anyways, i think FIA and FOTA are working on the deficit that resulted from the not so cold "engine freeze". The intention never was to encourage "hidden" improvements. If they're really sticking to the cost cutting purpose they somehow need to find a more suitable status quo. And i think they will.
But anyways, i think FIA and FOTA are working on the deficit that resulted from the not so cold "engine freeze". The intention never was to encourage "hidden" improvements. If they're really sticking to the cost cutting purpose they somehow need to find a more suitable status quo. And i think they will.
Flav has a point when he says they need a solution. They stuck to the agreement and nerly closed down engine research and development. That, in a time when the renault had a very good engine, good torque and state of the art traction control and other control functions. Those, that suddenly, for some strange reason, now seem to appear on the merc unit.
The deficit must be really huge. I dont think toro rosso gets the same upgrades as red bull does, do they?
The deficit must be really huge. I dont think toro rosso gets the same upgrades as red bull does, do they?
toro rosso haveto design there own car for next year?
TR currently build or subcontract compoments i think, dont get much from the main redbull team anymore
TR currently build or subcontract compoments i think, dont get much from the main redbull team anymore
Originally posted by pingu666
toro rosso haveto design there own car for next year?
toro rosso haveto design there own car for next year?
No, that's kicking in as soon as 2010. They can use RB Tech design next year. Will be interesting to see how identical the 09 designs will be considering the new KERS stuff.
The Funny thing is that the main Red Bull team had a Ferrari engine and they thought to move the contract to Torro Rosso and to have the Renault engine.
I have often thought that the ability to prepare a car and set it up was very underrated. Remember a few years back Sauber was running allegedly an exact replica of Ferrari and yet were not anywhere near Ferrari's pace. Ferrari could prepare their car better than Sauber. And it appears that Torro Rosso can prepare their car better than Red Bull, along with having better engines, and a much better driver lineup (Red Bulls being the weakest in F1).
I have often thought that the ability to prepare a car and set it up was very underrated. Remember a few years back Sauber was running allegedly an exact replica of Ferrari and yet were not anywhere near Ferrari's pace. Ferrari could prepare their car better than Sauber. And it appears that Torro Rosso can prepare their car better than Red Bull, along with having better engines, and a much better driver lineup (Red Bulls being the weakest in F1).
Weakest in F1?? Well I guess if 10 is the best and 1 is the worst RBR would be: 3+8/2 = 5.5 with STR: 8+5/2 = 6.5 so yes, I guess you could say STR have a better driver lineup but that's because of the old fart of DC doing sweet FA and leaving Webber to try and single handedly place the team well in the constructors points.
Also to add, STR didn't get the new car until Monaco so have had quite a bit of time less development time.
I'm unsure if the relative performance says more about STR or more about RBR. Probably a bit of both.
I'm unsure if the relative performance says more about STR or more about RBR. Probably a bit of both.
Originally posted by Ospi
[ the old fart of DC doing sweet FA [/B]
[ the old fart of DC doing sweet FA [/B]
Originally posted by Ospi
Weakest in F1?? Well I guess if 10 is the best and 1 is the worst RBR would be: 3+8/2 = 5.5 with STR: 8+5/2 = 6.5 so yes, I guess you could say STR have a better driver lineup but that's because of the old fart of DC doing sweet FA and leaving Webber to try and single handedly place the team well in the constructors points.
Weakest in F1?? Well I guess if 10 is the best and 1 is the worst RBR would be: 3+8/2 = 5.5 with STR: 8+5/2 = 6.5 so yes, I guess you could say STR have a better driver lineup but that's because of the old fart of DC doing sweet FA and leaving Webber to try and single handedly place the team well in the constructors points.
Webber is a good qualifier but he does seem error prone in the races. For whatever reason DC seems to be in an accident or two every single race.
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