Formula One Statistics

I have made this new Thread because I will post more F1 Statistics here. I will also continue this thread http://forums.autosp...World Champions over here.

This is about how Fernando Alonso compares to other World Champions based on the number of races Alonso has done.

World Championships
1. Juan Manuel Fangio 5
2. Jack Brabham 3
3. Jackie Stewart 3
4. Alberto Ascari 2
5. Jim Clark 2
6. Emerson Fittipaldi 2
7. Michael Schumacher 2
8. Nelson Piquet 2
9. Niki Lauda 2
10. Fernando Alonso 2
11. Graham Hill 2
12. Alain Prost 2
13. Ayrton Senna 2
14. Giuseppe Farina 1
15. Phil Hill 1
16. Denny Hulme 1
17. Jacques Villeneuve 1
18. John Surtees 1
19. Mike Hawthorn 1
20. Keke Rosberg 1
21. James Hunt 1
22. Jochen Rindt 1
23. Damon Hill 1
24. Mario Andretti 1
25. Alan Jones 1
26. Jody Scheckter 1
27. Mika Häkkinen 1
28. Kimi Räikkönen 0
29. Nigel Mansell 0
30. Stirling Moss 0

Wins
1. Michael Schumacher 33
2. Ayrton Senna 30
3. Alain Prost 28
4. Jackie Stewart 27
5. Jim Clark 25
6. Juan Manuel Fangio 24
7. Damon Hill 22
8. Fernando Alonso 20
9. Niki Lauda 18
10. Stirling Moss 16
11. Emerson Fittipaldi 14
12. Graham Hill 14
13. Jack Brabham 14
14. Nelson Piquet 14
15. Nigel Mansell 14
16. Alberto Ascari 13
17. Kimi Räikkönen 13
18. Mario Andretti 12
19. Alan Jones 12
20. Mika Häkkinen 12
21. Jacques Villeneuve 11
22. James Hunt 10
23. Jody Scheckter 10
24. Denny Hulme 8
25. Jochen Rindt 6
26. John Surtees 6
27. Giuseppe Farina 5
28. Keke Rosberg 5
29. Phil Hill 3
30. Mike Hawthorn 3

Pole positions
1. Ayrton Senna 56
2. Jim Clark 33
3. Juan Manuel Fangio 29
4. Niki Lauda 24
5. Damon Hill 20
6. Michael Schumacher 20
7. Nelson Piquet 20
8. Mario Andretti 17
9. Jackie Stewart 17
10. Fernando Alonso 17
11. Stirling Moss 16
12. Alain Prost 16
13. Mika Häkkinen 15
14. Alberto Ascari 14
15. James Hunt 14
16. Kimi Räikkönen 14
17. Jacques Villeneuve 13
18. Graham Hill 13
19. Jack Brabham 13
20. Nigel Mansell 12
21. Jochen Rindt 10
22. John Surtees 8
23. Phil Hill 6
24. Emerson Fittipaldi 6
25. Alan Jones 6
26. Giuseppe Farina 5
27. Keke Rosberg 5
28. Mike Hawthorn 4
29. Jody Scheckter 3
30. Denny Hulme 1

Fastest laps
1. Michael Schumacher 35
2. Jim Clark 28
3. Kimi Räikkönen 24
4. Juan Manuel Fangio 23
5. Stirling Moss 19
6. Damon Hill 19
7. Alain Prost 19
8. Niki Lauda 17
9. Nelson Piquet 16
10. Jackie Stewart 15
11. Ayrton Senna 15
12. Alan Jones 13
13. Alberto Ascari 12
14. Jack Brabham 12
15. John Surtees 11
16. Fernando Alonso 11
17. Mario Andretti 10
18. Graham Hill 10
19. Nigel Mansell 10
20. Jacques Villeneuve 9
21. Denny Hulme 9
22. Mika Häkkinen 9
23. James Hunt 8
24. Phil Hill 6
25. Mike Hawthorn 6
26. Emerson Fittipaldi 6
27. Giuseppe Farina 5
28. Jody Scheckter 5
29. Jochen Rindt 3
30. Keke Rosberg 3

Points
1. Michael Schumacher 532
2. Fernando Alonso 528
3. Ayrton Senna 446
4. Kimi Räikkönen 436
5. Alain Prost 406,5
6. Jackie Stewart 360
7. Damon Hill 360
8. Niki Lauda 304,5
9. Graham Hill 282
10. Juan Manuel Fangio 277,64
11. Emerson Fittipaldi 276
12. Jim Clark 274
13. Nelson Piquet 265
14. Jack Brabham 261
15. Mika Häkkinen 258
16. Jody Scheckter 255
17. Denny Hulme 248
18. Nigel Mansell 223
19. Jacques Villeneuve 216
20. Alan Jones 206
21. Stirling Moss 186,64
22. John Surtees 180
23. James Hunt 179
24. Mario Andretti 176
25. Keke Rosberg 159,5
26. Alberto Ascari 140,14
27. Mike Hawthorn 127,64
28. Giuseppe Farina 127,33
29. Jochen Rindt 109
30. Phil Hill 98

Grands Prix finished in points
1. Michael Schumacher 80
2. Fernando Alonso 80
3. Kimi Räikkönen 71
4. Ayrton Senna 70
5. Alain Prost 68
6. Denny Hulme 61
7. Jackie Stewart 57
8. Damon Hill 56
9. Emerson Fittipaldi 55
10. Graham Hill 54
11. Mika Häkkinen 54
12. Jody Scheckter 53
13. Jack Brabham 53
14. Niki Lauda 52
15. Nelson Piquet 50
16. Nigel Mansell 46
17. Jacques Villeneuve 45
18. Juan Manuel Fangio 43
19. Jim Clark 40
20. John Surtees 40
21. Alan Jones 39
22. Keke Rosberg 38
23. Mario Andretti 37
24. Stirling Moss 35
25. James Hunt 35
26. Mike Hawthorn 28
27. Giuseppe Farina 25
28. Alberto Ascari 23
29. Jochen Rindt 21
30. Phil Hill 20

Podiums
1. Michael Schumacher 66
2. Ayrton Senna 60
3. Alain Prost 55
4. Fernando Alonso 50
5. Kimi Räikkönen 46
6. Jackie Stewart 43
7. Damon Hill 42
8. Niki Lauda 40
9. Graham Hill 36
10. Juan Manuel Fangio 35
11. Emerson Fittipaldi 34
12. Nelson Piquet 34
13. Jody Scheckter 33
14. Denny Hulme 33
15. Jim Clark 32
16. Mika Häkkinen 32
17. Jack Brabham 31
18. Nigel Mansell 27
19. Stirling Moss 24
20. John Surtees 24
21. Alan Jones 24
22. James Hunt 23
23. Jaques Villeneuve 23
24. Giuseppe Farina 20
25. Mike Hawthorn 18
26. Mario Andretti 18
27. Alberto Ascari 17
28. Keke Rosberg 17
29. Phil Hill 16
30. Jochen Rindt 13

2nd places
1. Michael Schumacher 20
2. Fernando Alonso 18
3. Ayrton Senna 17
4. Kimi Räikkönen 17
5. Damon Hill 15
6. Niki Lauda 15
7. Graham Hill 15
8. Jody Scheckter 14
9. Alain Prost 14
10. Emerson Fittipaldi 13
11. Jackie Stewart 11
12. Nelson Piquet 11
13. Juan Manuel Fangio 10
14. John Surtees 10
15. Jack Brabham 10
16. Giuseppe Farina 9
17. Mike Hawthorn 9
18. Denny Hulme 9
19. Keke Rosberg 8
20. Alan Jones 7
21. James Hunt 6
22. Mika Häkkinen 6
23. Jacques Villeneuve 5
24. Phil Hill 5
25. Stirling Moss 5
26. Nigel Mansell 5
27. Alberto Ascari 4
28. Jochen Rindt 3
29. Mario Andretti 2
30. Jim Clark 1

3rd places
1. Denis Hulme 16
2. Kimi Räikkönen 16
3. Mika Häkkinen 14
4. Michael Schumacher 13
5. Alain Prost 13
6. Ayrton Senna 13
7. Fernando Alonso 12
8. Jody Scheckter 9
9. Nelson Piquet 9
10. Phil Hill 8
11. John Surtees 8
12. Nigel Mansell 8
13. Emerson Fittipaldi 7
14. Graham Hill 7
15. James Hunt 7
16. Jacques Villeneuve 7
17. Niki Lauda 7
18. Jack Brabham 7
19. Giuseppe Farina 6
20. Mike Hawthorn 6
21. Jim Clark 6
22. Damon Hill 5
23. Jackie Stewart 5
24. Alan Jones 5
25. Jochen Rindt 4
26. Mario Andretti 4
27. Keke Rosberg 4
28. Stirling Moss 3
29. Juan Manuel Fangio 1
30. Alberto Ascari 0

2nd and 3rd places
1. Michael Schumacher 33
2. Kimi Räikkönen 33
3. Fernando Alonso 30
4. Ayrton Senna 30
5. Alain Prost 27
6. Denny Hulme 25
7. Jody Scheckter 23
8. Niki Lauda 22
9. Graham Hill 22
10. Damon Hill 20
11. Emerson Fittipaldi 20
12. Mika Häkkinen 20
13. Nelson Piquet 20
14. John Surtees 18
15. Jack Brabham 17
16. Jackie Stewart 16
17. Giuseppe Farina 15
18. Mike Hawthorn 15
19. Phil Hill 13
20. James Hunt 13
21. Nigel Mansell13
22. Jacques Villeneuve 12
23. Alan Jones 12
24. Keke Rosberg 12
25. Juan Manuel Fangio 11
26. Stirling Moss 8
27. Jochen Rindt 7
28. Jim Clark 7
29. Mario Andretti 6
30. Alberto Ascari 4

Laps led
1. Ayrton Senna 2335
2. Jim Clark 1940
3. Jackie Stewart 1921
4. Michael Schumacher 1867
5. Alain Prost 1390
6. Damon Hill 1358
7. Juan Manuel Fangio 1347
8. Niki Lauda 1304
9. Nelson Piquet 1277
10. Fernando Alonso 1187
11. Stirling Moss 1181
12. Graham Hill 1101
13. Nigel Mansell 965
14. Alberto Ascari 927
15. Jack Brabham 825
16. Mika Häkkinen 822
17. Mario Andretti 798
18. Kimi Räikkönen 795
19. Jody Scheckter 675
20. James Hunt 666
21. Jacques Villeneuve 633
22. Alan Jones 589
23. Keke Rosberg 512
24. Emerson Fittipaldi 478
25. Denny Hulme 435
26. Jochen Rindt 387
27. Giuseppe Farina 336
28. John Surtees 308
29. Mike Hawthorn 225
30. Phil Hill 172

Kilometres led
1. Ayrton Senna 10747
2. Jim Clark 10110
3. Juan Manuel Fangio 9316
4. Jackie Stewart 9191
5. Michael Schumacher 8616
6. Alain Prost 6544
7. Stirling Moss 6369
8. Damon Hill 6310
9. Nelson Piquet 5980
10. Alberto Ascari 5902
11. Niki Lauda 5789
12. Fernando Alonso 5690
13. Graham Hill 4743
14. Jack Brabham 4540
15. Nigel Mansell 4235
16. Kimi Räikkönen 3935
17. Mika Häkkinen 3861
18. Mario Andretti 3573
19. James Hunt 3363
20. Jacques Villeneuve 2965
21. Jody Scheckter 2855
22. Alan Jones 2847
23. Giuseppe Farina 2651
24. Emerson Fittipaldi 2235
25. Keke Rosberg 2165
26. John Surtees 2123
27. Denny Hulme 1914
28. Jochen Rindt 1898
29. Mike Hawthorn 1635
30. Phil Hill 1532

Grands Prix led
1. Ayrton Senna 67
2. Michael Schumacher 56
3. Jackie Stewart 51
4. Fernando Alonso 49
5. Alain Prost 46
6. Damon Hill 45
7. Jim Clark 43
8. Kimi Räikkönen 42
9. Nelson Piquet 40
10. Juan Manuel Fangio 38
11. Graham Hill 32
12. Stirling Moss 31
13. Niki Lauda 31
14. Jack Brabham 28
15. Mika Häkkinen 28
16. Nigel Mansell 25
17. James Hunt 24
18. Alan Jones 24
19. Jody Scheckter 23
20. Mario Andretti 22
21. Alberto Ascari 21
22. Jacques Villeneuve 20
23. Keke Rosberg 20
24. Emerson Fittipaldi 18
25. John Surtees 17
26. Denis Hulme 17
27. Giuseppe Farina 14
28. Mike Hawthorn 12
29. Jochen Rindt 12
30. Phil Hill 10

Led throughout a Grand Prix
1. Ayrton Senna 17
2. Jim Clark 13
3. Jackie Stewart 11
4. Alberto Ascari 7
5. Niki Lauda 6
6. Juan Manuel Fangio 5
7. Stirling Moss 5
8. Jack Brabham 5
9. Mario Andretti 5
10. Michael Schumacher 5
11. Damon Hill 4
12. Nelson Piquet 4
13. Alain Prost 3
14. Kimi Räikkönen 3
15. Jody Scheckter 3
16. Mika Häkkinen 3
17. James Hunt 2
18. Fernando Alonso 2
19. Alan Jones 2
20. Nigel Mansell 2
21. Jacques Villeneuve 1
22. Emerson Fittipaldi 1
23. Graham Hill 1
24. Mike Hawthorn 1
25. Keke Rosberg 1
26. Giuseppe Farina 0
27. Phil Hill 0
28. Jochen Rindt 0
29. John Surtees 0
30. Denny Hulme 0

Pole position and win
1. Ayrton Senna 25
2. Juan Manuel Fangio 15
3. Jim Clark 15
4. Fernando Alonso 11
5. Alberto Ascari 9
6. Niki Lauda 9
7. Alain Prost 9
8. Michael Schumacher 9
9. Stirling Moss 8
10. Mario Andretti 8
11. Jackie Stewart 8
12. Damon Hill 7
13. James Hunt 7
14. Mika Häkkinen 7
15. Jack Brabham 6
16. Jacques Villeneuve 5
17. Kimi Räikkönen 5
18. Emerson Fittipaldi 4
19. John Surtees 4
20. Nelson Piquet 4
21. Graham Hill 4
22. Nigel Mansell 4
23. Jochen Rindt 3
24. Phil Hill 2
25. Alan Jones 2
26. Jody Scheckter 2
27. Giuseppe Farina 1
28. Mike Hawthorn 1
29. Denny Hulme 0
30. Keke Rosberg 0

Win and fastest lap
1. Michael Schumacher 20
2. Jim Clark 18
3. Alain Prost 13
4. Juan Manuel Fangio 12
5. Jackie Stewart 12
6. Damon Hill 10
7. Alberto Ascari 9
8. Ayrton Senna 9
9. Niki Lauda 9
10. Stirling Moss 7
11. Nelson Piquet 6
12. Kimi Räikkönen 6
13. Mika Häkkinen 6
14. Graham Hill 5
15. Alan Jones 5
16. Fernando Alonso 5
17. Nigel Mansell 5
18. Jack Brabham 5
19. Jacques Villeneuve 4
20. John Surtees 4
21. Mario Andretti 4
22. Giuseppe Farina 2
23. Emerson Fittipaldi 2
24. Jochen Rindt 2
25. James Hunt 2
26. Phil Hill 1
27. Mike Hawthorn 1
28. Jody Scheckter 1
29. Denny Hulme 1
30. Keke Rosberg 1

Hat trick (pole position, fastest lap and win)
1. Jim Clark 11
2. Juan Manuel Fangio 9
3. Alberto Ascari 7
4. Ayrton Senna 7
5. Michael Schumacher 6
6. Damon Hill 5
7. Alain Prost 5
8. Mika Häkkinen 5
9. Stirling Moss 4
10. Jackie Stewart 4
11. John Surtees 3
12. Niki Lauda 3
13. Jack Brabham 3
14. Nelson Piquet 3
15. Fernando Alonso 3
16. Jacques Villeneuve 2
17. James Hunt 2
18. Alan Jones 2
19. Graham Hill 2
20. Mario Andretti 2
21. Giuseppe Farina 1
22. Phill Hill 1
23. Mike Hawthorn 1
24. Jochen Rindt 1
25. Kimi Räikkönen 1
26. Nigel Mansell 0
27. Denny Hulme 0
28. Jody Scheckter 0
29. Keke Rosberg 0
30. Emerson Fittipaldi 0

Chelem (pole position, fastest lap, win and lead throughout)
1. Jim Clark 8
2. Alberto Ascari 5
3. Jackie Stewart 4
4. Ayrton Senna 4
5. Nelson Piquet 3
6. Juan Manuel Fangio 2
7. Michael Schumacher 2
8. Jack Brabham 2
9. Mika Häkkinen 2
10. Mike Hawthorn 1
11. Damon Hill 1
12. Stirling Moss 1
13. Niki Lauda 1
14. Nigel Mansell 0
15. Giuseppe Farina 0
16. Phil Hill 0
17. Jochen Rindt 0
18. James Hunt 0
19. John Surtees 0
20. Denny Hulme 0
21. Jody Scheckter 0
22. Keke Rosberg 0
23. Alan Jones 0
24. Fernando Alonso 0
25. Mario Andretti 0
26. Kimi Räikkönen 0
27. Emerson Fittipaldi 0
28. Jacques Villeneuve 0
29. Graham Hill 0
30. Alain Prost 0

First row
1. Ayrton Senna 71
2. Juan Manuel Fangio 48
3. Jim Clark 48
4. Damon Hill 47
5. Jackie Stewart 42
6. Graham Hill 42
7. Michael Schumacher 42
8. Jack Brabham 38
9. Stirling Moss 37
10. Alain Prost 37
11. Nelson Piquet 35
12. Niki Lauda 31
13. Nigel Mansell 30
14. Fernando Alonso 28
15. Giuseppe Farina 27
16. Alberto Ascari 25
17. James Hunt 24
18. Kimi Räikkönen 24
19. Jacques Villeneuve 23
20. Mario Andretti 23
21. Denny Hulme 23
22. John Surtees 21
23. Mika Häkkinen 21
24. Jochen Rindt 18
25. Mike Hawthorn 17
26. Emerson Fittipaldi 16
27. Jody Scheckter 13
28. Alan Jones 13
29. Keke Rosberg 10
30. Phil Hill 9

Grands Prix
1. Graham Hill 119
2. Jack Brabham 119
3. Emerson Fittipaldi 119
4. Mario Andretti 119
5. Niki Lauda 119
6. Nelson Piquet 119
7. Alain Prost 119
8. Nigel Mansell 119
9. Ayrton Senna 119
10. Michael Schumacher 119
11. Mika Häkkinen 119
12. Jacques Villeneuve 119
13. Kimi Räikkönen 119
14. Fernando Alonso 119
15. Alan Jones 116
16. Damon Hill 115
17. Keke Rosberg 114
18. Denny Hulme 112
19. Jody Scheckter 112
20. John Surtees 111
21. Jackie Stewart 99
22. James Hunt 92
23. Jim Clark 72
24. Stirling Moss 66
25. Jochen Rindt 60
26. Juan Manuel Fangio 51
27. Phil Hill 47
28. Mike Hawthorn 45
29. Giuseppe Farina 33
30. Alberto Ascari 32

I think that the stats would make more interesting reading if you include Hamilton and Massa as well...

Massa's had a similar number of GP starts to Alonso and Hamilton has had far fewer starts, but they both have comparable stats to quite a few of the drivers in the bottom half of the list (they both have rather similar stats to Villeneuve, in fact).

Who knows, both of those drivers may start bearing down on Alonso's stats during 2009 and 2010 depending on which cars they're all driving...

Interesting stats Bernd! Good work

The only thing is the points total. It doesn't tell the whole story since the points system has changed many times over the years, making Alonso's and Kimi's (and MS's) total points look better than that of older drivers.

Nice lists.

How about a simple statistic - % of wins per start, it's the only one which is of real interest.

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Nice lists.

How about a simple statistic - % of wins per start, it's the only one which is of real interest.

Actually not.

Alonso's current % of wins: 16,67%

Alonso's % of wins had he not driven for Minardi: 19,42%

Can you say Fernando would be a better driver if he had never driven for Minardi, where he had no chance of winning at all? Certainly not. % of wins is not a lot more interesting...

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Nice lists.

How about a simple statistic - % of wins per start, it's the only one which is of real interest.

Acctually according to such a statistc Lee Wallard is #1, he has 50%. That is better than Schumacher.

No offense, but these stats really demonstrate nothing. Comparing drivers who drove different cars and even in different eras can't possibly prove anything except that to make the list you had to be pretty good. Some of the stats (like points) are far more indicative of the new points system and far more reliable cars than of driver ability. Still, the lists are fun to read.

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer

World Championships
...
28. Kimi Räikkönen 0

Is this a typo or are you using old stats?

Have you not read the thread?

Kimi Raikkonen had won 0 world championships by the time of his 119th Grand Prix.

This is a contrived set of stats to prove how wonderful F Alonso is!

Wins per start:




Wins per finish:



(Note - system is still in testing)...

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Acctually according to such a statistc Lee Wallard is #1, he has 50%. That is better than Schumacher.

That's why one uses proper statistical methods, to eliminate anomalies such as that - Chuck out the freak results and balance the oddities, like the annual GP win of the 1950s Indianapolis winner.

I have always been interested in the "Positions Gained" number, which subtracts finishing position from starting position.
To me, this is the closest we can get, with real numbers, to measuring racecraft and passing ability.
Possible?

Like this?

http://www.statsf1.c.../div16.asp?LG=2

stevewf1, your program is awesome..
Its amazing that from the current drivers only Lewis,Alonso,Kimi & Massa make the top 40 in your % stats..

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
Like this?

http://www.statsf1.c.../div16.asp?LG=2

Looking at "consecutive finishes" on that site (great site by the way).

I show Heidfeld 1st with 25 (France 2007 to Singapore 2008). Guess it depends on what a "finish" is... Heidfeld "didn't finish" at Fuji, but was classified 14th, which I count - the 90% rule. Theoretically, a driver could "not finish" a race, but be classified high enough to still receive points.

This is one of the many anomalies I ran into when I worked on my F1 stats system (shared drives were a LOT of fun).

Maybe I should change it to read "Classified%" instead of "Finish%"... :

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
Like this?

http://www.statsf1.c.../div16.asp?LG=2

This is an excellent site.
Being a novice with statistics, I guess the first rule is to be more specific.
For "change in position", career average would be meaningful.
Although the stats by race brought back memories for me...

Originally posted by BMW_F1
stevewf1, your program is awesome..
Its amazing that from the current drivers only Lewis,Alonso,Kimi & Massa make the top 40 in your % stats..

Thanks I put a lot of work into this and I thought it would be simple - but noooo...

As I went along, I found out that there really weren't any "definitive" answers to such things as "Hey what exactly is a Grand Prix start anyway"?

Originally posted by pacificquay
This is a contrived set of stats to prove how wonderful F Alonso is!

Alonso is the reference, since he is the most successfull active driver. However the purpose is not to hail him. It's to compare him.

It is also flawed because events like Italy 1960 and San Marino 1982 are given equal weight to something like Germany 1968 despite the former two being walkovers against weak opposition. Let alone something like the Grand Prix de la Marne 1952 that had a full Championship field but because it wasn't a Championship race is shamefully ignored. And how about throwing in F2 and Tasman in the 60s? Far more competitive with most of the F1 drivers than many other Championship races. And an F2 car in 1966 was an F1 car in 1965.

Originally posted by ensign14
And an F2 car in 1966 was an F1 car in 1965.

In 1952 and 1953 F1 has been run with F2 cars.

Originally posted by ensign14
And an F2 car in 1966 was an F1 car in 1965.

I think you might want to review that statement.....;)

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I think you might want to review that statement.....;)

Ish. Point is the same driver in the same car in the same race in 1965 and 1966 might have been racing in two different formulae. So why should a win in the former be considered whereas the latter would not?

F1 1961-65: 1500cc

F2 1964-66: 1000cc

F1 1966 onwards 3000cc

F2 1967-72 1600cc, stock blocks

And a 1965 F1 chassis would have been (IIRC) over the maximum weight limit for F2 ....

Ta, I thought it was '66 they brought in the 1600cc-ers. Big gap for 1966 then.

[broken record] One of the problem of "formula one statistics" -- such as those being presented, is that what is being collected is actually data from the original CSI Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs run from 1950 thru 1980 and the 'FIA Formula 1 World Championship' that had its first season in 1981, two separate but apparently still not very distinct championships to most. Rather than 'formula 1' stats, what is being presented is material gleamed from both of the world championship series. To truly reflect 'formula 1' stats, those events held to formula 1 outside the two championships (although this was a rarity under the championship in effect since the 1981 season) would have to be included and rounds held under the earlier championship dropped form the database.[/broken record]

So, in the next years, the more races Alonso take part, the more he will fall in the standings.

Originally posted by Laffite
So, in the next years, the more races Alonso take part, the more he will fall in the standings.

Depends on his results. Depending on the car in other words. As soon as he'll get his hands on the Ferrari, he will certainly clime up in the statistics.

Fantasitic thread, thank you

Those figures really do show what a talented driver Fernando is.

Regardless of what you are trying to prove, this approach is notable more for its obvious flaws than anything else. To count the whole of some drivers' careers because they did fewer races than Alonso has, but only a random proportion of the careers of other drivers makes a nonsense of any conclusion. In the earlier times, there were far fewer races per season, so some drivers with long careers might have done fewer races than Alonso has, just for that reason. So what does a set of figures normalised on Alonso's current career mean? Nothing.

In earlier times, cars were far less reliable, so nobody could possibly score the same proportion of wins or the same points per race as people can now. In earlier times, overtaking was not a problem, so there was far less incentive to try for pole than there is now. In earlier times, the differences between cars were far greater, so a rank bad driver in a good car could easily come second. Fangio didn't drive in a GP until he was 38. One could go on, but one can't be bothered. The figures you have quoted are meaningless.

But it's the fixation on Alonso that's the worst aspect, it's simply preposterous.

Hi All,

Hope you can help. A couple of months ago I found a website that listed all lap times (not just the best lap time) for all drivers during any race, plus the facility to compare any 2 drivers, and it showed the +/- per lap, and the cumulative gain / loss over the race, the problem I didn't bookmark the site.

Any ideas of the site name?

Cheers

I just noticed on that stats that Alonso's last win was the first ever starting 15th

Originally posted by morals
I just noticed on that stats that Alonso's last win was the first ever starting 15th

That puts him 7th on the list of winners.
I see that John Watson won from 22nd in '83 AND from 17th the year before...

Originally posted by metz

That puts him 7th on the list of winners.
I see that John Watson won from 22nd in '83 AND from 17th the year before...

That's impressive, isn't it? Wattie was unstoppable, when on his day.

Were those stats normalized for the points differences? Or are we comparing Apples with Oranges?

These days races award more overall points than in distant times. Hence if you are comparing points, all the races need to be normalized.

Come to think of it, Prost lost a world championship even though he had more points - in those days, they allowed drivers to drop their worst races. Senna got that championship instead of Prost I think. Hamilton would have won last year with that system (I think). Hmm - it would be interesting to go over all the championships and see the changes with that system that cost Alain a championship. Poor fellow.

Originally posted by metz
I have always been interested in the "Positions Gained" number, which subtracts finishing position from starting position.
To me, this is the closest we can get, with real numbers, to measuring racecraft and passing ability.
Possible?

I don't think that will give a measure of anything. Someone who wins from pole would get zero, therefore poor racecraft and no passing ability.

Originally posted by Clatter


I don't think that will give a measure of anything. Someone who wins from pole would get zero, therefore poor racecraft and no passing ability.

True. On the other hand if someone qualifies a fast car bad and overtakes lots of people because of his car advantage it might suggest great racecraft, even if he misses out the win against another guy who led from pole.

Originally posted by Clatter


I don't think that will give a measure of anything. Someone who wins from pole would get zero, therefore poor racecraft and no passing ability.

Bernd is right.
What passing ability do you need from pole?
It's easy to win from pole compared to any other slot. Think wet, visibility and car capability
We already have pole stats that fans respect.
Can we agree that winning from the back of the pack is more difficult than from pole?
Most poles have the best car. Some wins are not the best car. Some wins are luck.
But generally, if we want to see what driver has the best racecraft in a not so good car, the position improvement number over the long run, is a very valid measure.

Originally posted by Saltypeanut
Hi All,

Hope you can help. A couple of months ago I found a website that listed all lap times (not just the best lap time) for all drivers during any race, plus the facility to compare any 2 drivers, and it showed the +/- per lap, and the cumulative gain / loss over the race, the problem I didn't bookmark the site.

Any ideas of the site name?

Cheers

Perhaps http://www.f1matrix.it/ ?

Originally posted by metz
I see that John Watson won from 22nd in '83 AND from 17th the year before...

Both times on street circuits, too (Long Beach and Detroit).

Originally posted by metz

Bernd is right.
What passing ability do you need from pole?
It's easy to win from pole compared to any other slot. Think wet, visibility and car capability
We already have pole stats that fans respect.
Can we agree that winning from the back of the pack is more difficult than from pole?
Most poles have the best car. Some wins are not the best car. Some wins are luck.
But generally, if we want to see what driver has the best racecraft in a not so good car, the position improvement number over the long run, is a very valid measure.

How about starting from the back but only gaining say 3 places. Is that better race craft than someone who starts 2nd and wins?

Or how about Alonso in the last race. Won from 15th, but did he actually overtake anyone on track? IMHO it's a totally skewed statistic that doesnt prove anything.

Originally posted by metz

Bernd is right.
What passing ability do you need from pole?
It's easy to win from pole compared to any other slot. Think wet, visibility and car capability
We already have pole stats that fans respect.
Can we agree that winning from the back of the pack is more difficult than from pole?
Most poles have the best car. Some wins are not the best car. Some wins are luck.
But generally, if we want to see what driver has the best racecraft in a not so good car, the position improvement number over the long run, is a very valid measure.

How about two drivers in the same team, one puts it on the pole, the other puts it sixth. Whose the better driver?

lets forget the current system ... the pole means little now.

Of course there are always exceptions.
Short of counting the number of passes on track, this is the best number.

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


How about two drivers in the same team, one puts it on the pole, the other puts it sixth. Whose the better driver?

lets forget the current system ... the pole means little now.

The guy that wins it from 6th is a better driver than the one lap wonder that wins it from pole.

Originally posted by metz

The guy that wins it from 6th is a better driver than the one lap wonder that wins it from pole.

Thats really not true is it?

Someone can put it on pole and have a storming brilliant race to win it and your saying that someone who won from 6th was obviously better? If so Rubens is better than Schumacher was because he won a race from 18th once and schumi won one from pole on another occasion.

Do I need to repeat myself?
There are always exceptions.

Generally, winning is more difficult if passing is required.

Originally posted by metz


Generally, winning is more difficult if passing is required.

That may be, but there is no way that you can state that someone who wins a race from 6th is a better driver than someone who wins a race from pole.

How about a Pole who wins the race from 6th?

Originally posted by metz

The guy that wins it from 6th is a better driver than the one lap wonder that wins it from pole.

So your argument is that a driver who is mediocre at qualifying but can win, is a better driver than one who can put it on pole and win.

To me, that's some skewed thinking...

We were talking about passing ability and racecraft, compared to winning from pole.