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KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 16:17

Originally posted by anthony says

You're in the clouds. Do you think Bourdais had no right to race? Whiting had told the drivers that cars emerging from the pits had priority. If Massa wanted to overtake, he had to drive around the outside of Bourdais. There was no reason whatsoever for Bourdais to brake, he was taking the corner on the correct line and he was racing Massa for position. As Bourdais was on the correct line and was alongside Massa, the collision has to be Massa's fault. There is no reason whatsoever why Bourdais should have given way. As he was on the inside, he would probably have emerged ahead of Massa if they hadn't touched, so why should he give way?

You simply do not seem to want the rules to be the same for Massa and Bourdais. Not sure how that makes me in the clouds.

Once more I suggest to read what I have said.

1) The drivers could race.
2) Bourdais exiting the pits under a blue flag warning knew that he would be the guilty party, were the two drivers to make contact.

I may be in the clouds in your opinion, I have however correctly understanding the rules governing this particular incident, and as you have seen the stewards have issued a penalty to Bourdais.

anthony says

Oct 15 2008, 16:21

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

you know what priority is?

Yes, presumably you think giving priority means forcing your way in front?

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

which is what he did

Have you seen any evidence that Bourdais drifted wide?

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

he could avoid the colision. he didn't

Bourdais had no reason to do anything other than take the corner on the inside line in the normal way. You call yourself MikeTekRacing, are you seriously saying you would lift off to let the other guy pass you? If so, delete the 'racing' bit and substitute 'surrendering'.

anthony says

Oct 15 2008, 16:23

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

You simply do not seem to want the rules to be the same for Massa and Bourdais. Not sure how that makes me in the clouds.

Once more I suggest to read what I have said.

1) The drivers could race.
2) Bourdais exiting the pits under a blue flag warning knew that he would be the guilty party, were the two drivers to make contact.

I may be in the clouds in your opinion, I have however correctly understanding the rules governing this particular incident, and as you have seen the stewards have issued a penalty to Bourdais.

He wasn't under a blue flag, he was on the same lap and racing Massa for position. Why do you think there should have been a blue flag? What does it mean? "There is a Ferrari coming, so you must let it overtake you for position"?

KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 16:27

Originally posted by anthony says

He wasn't under a blue flag, he was on the same lap and racing Massa for position. Why do you think there should have been a blue flag? What does it mean? "There is a Ferrari coming, so you must let it overtake you for position"?

He was under a blue flag warning exiting the pits, all cars exiting the pits regardless of position in the race are under a blue flag warning.

If you want to argue, then argue the facts rather than your own fictional interpretation.

ajcrean

Oct 15 2008, 16:39

You simply don't get get it, do you? The rules should be the same for everyone.

1) The drivers WERE racing. Massa squeezed Bourdais, there was contact and Massa spun. There should have been no investigation and no penalties; it was a racing incident. If you insist, however, on apportioning blame, Massa pushed Bourdais to the very edge of the track so the collision was clearly precipitated by him. I can only presume that the three Stewards decided that a penalty was justified for Bourdais' apparent "interference" with a Championship contender.
2) You're talking rubbish: there was no blue flag; the two were racing for position. I'm presuming that you're confusing blue flags with the blue light at the pitlane exit. The blue light exists solely to warn drivers leaving the pits that cars are approaching on the main straight at speed and that they therefore need to exercise caution when rejoining. It's generally accepted that the blue light's influence extends only up to the end of the white line on the track that demarks the pitlane exit. After that, it's "Game On".

You're definitely in the clouds and smoking something that I wish you'd share...

bond

Oct 15 2008, 16:40

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

He was under a blue flag warning exiting the pits, all cars exiting the pits regardless of position in the race are under a blue flag warning.

If you want to argue, then argue the facts rather than your own fictional interpretation.

The same goes to you...

It's blue lights when coming of the pits, not blue flags...
And it's only to tell you there's cars coming down the straight...
Not more, not less...

anthony says

Oct 15 2008, 16:44

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

He was under a blue flag warning exiting the pits, all cars exiting the pits regardless of position in the race are under a blue flag warning.
If you want to argue, then argue the facts rather than your own fictional interpretation.

You need to check your facts and understanding. A blue flag means you must allow the driver behind you to overtake you and is given to people being lapped. Earlier you said they were allowed to race, so you are now contradicting yourself.

If you think everybody leaving the pits is under a blue flag, how come some people hold their position without letting the car behind overtake and are not penalised? Have you ever heard of anybody leaving the pits and being penalised for failing to let the car behind overtake them?

bond

Oct 15 2008, 16:59

Originally posted by anthony says

If you think everybody leaving the pits is under a blue flag, how come some people hold their position without letting the car behind overtake and are not penalised? Have you ever heard of anybody leaving the pits and being penalised for failing to let the car behind overtake them?

Just look at kimi when he leaves the pitstop and holds his position against webber...
He's just trying everything to make the case stick...

Jacquesback

Oct 15 2008, 17:16

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I do not agree. Neither does the rules, nor the stewards.

At the very worst this was a racing incident. The Stewards have made a travesty of the rules by penalising Seb.

phredV

Oct 15 2008, 17:20

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I do not agree. Neither does the rules, nor the stewards.

Actually, my friend the stewards can be and have been wrong .......
just like you are......

As an ex-racer, myself, I was always taught the responsibility for a safe
pass lies with the passer, not the passee......

KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 17:26

Originally posted by ajcrean

You simply don't get get it, do you? The rules should be the same for everyone. - They are

1) The drivers WERE racing. Massa squeezed Bourdais, there was contact and Massa spun. There should have been no investigation and no penalties; it was a racing incident. If you insist, however, on apportioning blame, Massa pushed Bourdais to the very edge of the track so the collision was clearly precipitated by him. I can only presume that the three Stewards decided that a penalty was justified for Bourdais' apparent "interference" with a Championship contender. - You and a number of posters contend that Massa was at fault, I and a few others contend that Bourdais was at fault. The stewards having looked the matter over, gave a penalty to Bourdais for being at fault.

2) You're talking rubbish: there was no blue flag; the two were racing for position. I'm presuming that you're confusing blue flags with the blue light at the pitlane exit. The blue light exists solely to warn drivers leaving the pits that cars are approaching on the main straight at speed and that they therefore need to exercise caution when rejoining. It's generally accepted that the blue light's influence extends only up to the end of the white line on the track that demarks the pitlane exit. After that, it's "Game On". - There was a blue light warning, the rules governing those have been posted, and I have posted the flag rules in this or the other Bourdais thread, so YOU are the one not paying attention, there are no need to keep bringing the pitlane exit lines up, as they have no bearing on the matter.

You're definitely in the clouds and smoking something that I wish you'd share... - I am still however the one of you and I, who are dealing with the actual facts. Bourdais was handed a penalty for being in the wrong. I don't smoke.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 17:29

Originally posted by bond

The same goes to you...

It's blue lights when coming of the pits, not blue flags... - You should read the rules parts posted. Blue light = blue flag.
And it's only to tell you there's cars coming down the straight... - No that is not correct.
Not more, not less...

You still need to deal with facts not fiction. Take a look at the result of the race, take a look at the stewards report. They confirm me, and show you not have understood the matter.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 17:33

Originally posted by anthony says

You need to check your facts and understanding. A blue flag means you must allow the driver behind you to overtake you and is given to people being lapped. Earlier you said they were allowed to race, so you are now contradicting yourself. - You are mistaken that the blue flag is being shown to drivers being lapped, the blue flags is ALSO shown to drivers being lapped, the flag can however be shown to any driver in the race including the leader. I still agree that they could race, and I still say that Bourdais being under a blue flag warning would be the one at fault, were he to be involved in an incident at the first corner. No contradiction, simple matter of understanding the rules. Which by the way are not as complicated as you seem to think.

If you think everybody leaving the pits is under a blue flag, how come some people hold their position without letting the car behind overtake and are not penalised? Have you ever heard of anybody leaving the pits and being penalised for failing to let the car behind overtake them? -I do not think that at all, you should read what I post, rather than writing views and opinions that I have not made.

Clatter

Oct 15 2008, 17:35

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

The same goes to you...
It's blue lights when coming of the pits, not blue flags... - You should read the rules parts posted. Blue light = blue flag.
And it's only to tell you there's cars coming down the straight... - No that is not correct.
Not more, not less... You still need to deal with facts not fiction. Take a look at the result of the race, take a look at the stewards report. They confirm me, and show you not have understood the matter.

If you are going to try telling people what the rules are then you could at least read them first.

153) During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the light at the end of the pit lane is
green and on their own responsibility. A marshal with a blue flag, or a flashing blue light, will also warn the
driver if cars are approaching on the track.

Blue light=warning, doesnt mean give up your place.

bond

Oct 15 2008, 17:37

Once again your whole point is based that once the penalty was given then it's the right call...

bond

Oct 15 2008, 17:40

Originally posted by Clatter

If you are going to try telling people what the rules are then you could at least read them first.

153) During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the light at the end of the pit lane is
green and on their own responsibility. A marshal with a blue flag, or a flashing blue light, will also warn the
driver if cars are approaching on the track.

Blue light=warning, doesnt mean give up your place.

That's what i said...
There wasn't any marshal with a flashing blue light, so only blue lights were working.
Also i said it was to warn only that cars are coming down the straight, not more , not less...

Clatter

Oct 15 2008, 17:49

Originally posted by bond

That's what i said...
There wasn't any marshal with a flashing blue light, so only blue lights were working.
Also i said it was to warn only that cars are coming down the straight, not more , not less...

I know you did, and it's been said several times already, but you know who doesnt seem capable of opening the rule book and checking before spouting off.

DarthWillie

Oct 15 2008, 17:51

KWSN-DSM the whole discussion is about wether the stewards made the right decision, saying they are right because it is in the results is kind of a strange argument

bond

Oct 15 2008, 17:55

Originally posted by Clatter

I know you did, and it's been said several times already, but you know who doesnt seem capable of opening the rule book and checking before spouting off.

Yes, you're right ;)

jcbc3

Oct 15 2008, 18:06

Just a bit of info.

I vehemently disagree with KWSN and his line of reasoning. However having known him for most of 44 years, I can tell you that:

1) He is not Donnelly
2) He did race (as did I)
c) You may as well give up. He is more stubborn than you guys anyway.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 15 2008, 18:12

Originally posted by jcbc3
Just a bit of info.

I vehemently disagree with KWSN and his line of reasoning. However having known him for most of 44 years, I can tell you that:

1) He is not Donnelly
2) He did race (as did I)
c) You may as well give up. He is more stubborn than you guys anyway.

I am also correct that a blue light = blue flag.

jcbc3

Oct 15 2008, 18:13

I'll give you that.

Flags of all kinds can be substituted by lights. As the yellows were in Singapore.

Clatter

Oct 15 2008, 18:16

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I am also correct that a blue light = blue flag.

Only when shown at the pit exit, and it doesnt mean the same thing as a blue flag shown at other times.

Jacquesback

Oct 15 2008, 18:19

Originally posted by jcbc3
I'll give you that.

Flags of all kinds can be substituted by lights. As the yellows were in Singapore.

How does a light indicate the difference between a stationary yellow flag and a waved yellow flag?

Jacquesback

Oct 15 2008, 18:20

Originally posted by Clatter

Only when shown at the pit exit, and it doesnt mean the same thing as a blue flag shown at other times.

Exactly.

Clatter

Oct 15 2008, 18:21

Originally posted by Jacquesback

How does a light indicate the difference between a stationary yellow flag and a waved yellow flag?

One is flashing the other isnt.

ajcrean

Oct 15 2008, 21:58

Originally posted by jcbc3
I vehemently disagree with KWSN and his line of reasoning. However having known him for most of 44 years...

I'm glad to see that even the Village Idiot has mates...

wewantourdarbyback

Oct 15 2008, 22:11

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I am also correct that a blue light = blue flag.

When exiting the pitlane that is true, but the pitlane ends when the white line ends, the corner was some way after the end to said white line. Bourdais came out ahead of Massa but going slower and accelerating, he arrived at the corner in front of Massa and with the racing line, this was the point at which Massa caught Sebastian, long after the pitlane exit. If he had caught him just after the white line he would have had to cede the place but he was well beyond the exit and to the point were they were racing again for the place.

They were not at the exit of the pitlane, they were into the next corner a couple of hundred metres down the road, racing again, Massa turned in to overtake and found that he's forgotten to see where Sebastian was, result? Collision.

Slowinfastout

Oct 15 2008, 22:28

Bourdais has shown himself to be quite a straight talker and he's not afraid to tell it like it is when he makes mistakes... would be nice to count all the times Bourdais rejoined a race track in traffic after pitting in his career!

I'm inclined to believe him when he says that he did nothing wrong, much more than the stewards who are most likely incompetent anyway...

Its the first time a video montage had to be released to explain the decisions, and the part of that video that displays the Bourdais-Massa incident has some interesting editing choices too.. IMHO there's a reason for that, the penalty was stupid.

They took Seb's world championship points and they have given them to Massa, who on top of that was the one who crashed into Seb, and they did it after the race was over.

I'm still angry at that decision whenever I think about it, most unfair stuff I've seen in a while in racing, even worse than the Spa stuff..

Stibbles

Oct 16 2008, 05:37

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I have a job, so you need to be patient when posting. Not able to answer you instantly.

Thanks for the response - I also have a job, but we are also in different time zones.

We will have to disagree on the blue flags - my understanding of the lights to simply to warn of a fast car on pit straight, not a car that is about to lap you (that's what a waved blue flag is for). So therefore the blue lights ONLY apply to the pit lane extension and there was actually no waved blue flag for Seb there can't have been as they were both on the same lap. So a best a stationery flag to warn of a closely following car was all that's required.

A car must be at least halfway past another car on the way into a corner (cue video at this point) At the actual point of contact there may have been some overlap - but Seb was still trying to stay in tight - at that point FM cut across his front - Seb isn't obliged to move out of the way as they are racing for position. One point to consider is that if Seb was pushing Felipe wise then Felipe waouldn't have stayed on the track when he spun - he would have spn omnto the dirt

Suspect you'll not change your mind but it has been fun trying to get you to

Stibbles

Oct 16 2008, 05:42

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

you know what priority is?

which is what he did

he could avoid the colision. he didn't

And neither did Massa - he cut across - a racing incident.

jcbc3

Oct 16 2008, 07:40

Originally posted by ajcrean

I'm glad to see that even the Village Idiot has mates...

I don't know him by choice.

And on the other F1 BB we post, that is predominantly Ferrari fans, I am considerd the Village Idiot.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 16 2008, 09:00

Originally posted by jcbc3

I don't know him by choice.

And on the other F1 BB we post, that is predominantly Ferrari fans, I am considerd the Village Idiot.

Well you launched a strong campaign to actually get that coveted title.

Is it really predominately Ferrari by now?

Uncle Hank changes alignment as the wind blows.
KMPH is a Williams fan
FF is a Hamilton
I am Rosberg, and team is Ferrari
You are quick Nick and the evil empire
Mont is Ferrari
Intrepid is VERY much McLaren
Alonso is Renault
Watkins is Ferrari
Jackson I am not sure have any favorites
Woodster no idea, but not Ferrari
Acci may be anything
Raelene anyone not at McLaren :-)
Cheavie guess is Ferrari as well
Fluffy is Minardi (and for all I know still is Minardi for him)
Stone is not Ferrari
The ITALIAN guy Ferrari
Spaceguy, who knows but I guess Ferrari.

So may be a slight overbalance of Ferrari fans, but that would only mirror the world at large, and I still rather see Nico win before any Ferrari at each race.

phredV

Oct 16 2008, 12:40

I think this says a whole Lot....

Headline Article from Autosport 10/16/2008......

"Drivers call for steward system overhaul"

Gareth

Oct 16 2008, 12:47

Originally posted by jcbc3
And on the other F1 BB we post, that is predominantly Ferrari fans, I am considerd the Village Idiot.

I have no idea why ...

Originally posted by jcbc3
1) He is not Donnelly
2) He did race (as did I)
c) You may as well give up. He is more stubborn than you guys anyway.

jcbc3

Oct 16 2008, 13:01

Originally posted by Gareth

I have no idea why ...

Don't put your self down. I'm sure you have.

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