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peroa

Oct 12 2008, 10:22

Originally posted by RedBaron

I'm a don't agree with you-er so must be wrong-er. Hey I know I don't like something that happened in the race, I'll go onto a message board along with a handful of other people and we'll post numerous topics all flustered and upset about exactly the same thing. Then we'll do it all over again, but we'll make them Polls. We'll tell everyone else they're wrong and ignore what they say. Lewis for WDC!

OK, in what way is Canada98 similar too Fuji 2008 (except for somebody just making a pitstop)?

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 10:34

Originally posted by peroa

Seems like you and RedBaron are the first on the list of "don`t understand"-ers ...

Did Sutil deserve a finish in the points at Monaco? - Absolutely.

Did Kimi make a stupid bonehead move on track at Monacao? - Absolutely.

Can the situation at Monaco and the Bourdais / Massa coming together today be seen as equal or comparable? - Absolutely not.

Bourdais caused an avoidable contact exiting from the pits. - Exiting from the pits Bourdais needs to avoid contact with the cars on track, which is why he is shown the blue light, knowing that they are there.

Kimi lost his car and hit Sutil - [b/]Kimi should not have tried as hard, when he did and where he did, he could not avoid hitting Sutil no matter how much he tried to.[/b]

The difference is in being two cars racing under race speeds, and two cars racing when one is not at race speed.

It is simple Bourdais was penalized according to the rules, and it is not only RedBaron and I. There are a split on the forum as it is about 50/50, some of which may be down to likes and dislikes, but as you can see 50% of us actually just appreciate that the sport is being run according to the rules.

You can not find any post of mine on this forum, after a penalty having been applied and all avenues of appeal exhausted, where I do not (sometimes grudingly) accept the penalty. That includes a number of penalties against 'my' drivers, as I find the proper following of rules more important that boasting my favorite and finding him above the rules of F1. It may seem alien to you, that there is such integrity however it is actually quite common here if you pay attention.

Lifew12

Oct 12 2008, 10:36

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Bourdais caused an avoidable contact exiting from the pits. .

No he didn't; he simply kept to his line. What do you actually expect him to do: say 'oh, there's a Ferrari coming, I must let it pass'?

peroa

Oct 12 2008, 10:42

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

The difference is in being two cars racing under race speeds, and two cars racing when one is not at race speed.

It is simple Bourdais was penalized according to the rules, and it is not only RedBaron and I. There are a split on the forum as it is about 50/50, some of which may be down to likes and dislikes, but as you can see 50% of us actually just appreciate that the sport is being run according to the rules.

You can not find any post of mine on this forum, after a penalty having been applied and all avenues of appeal exhausted, where I do not (sometimes grudingly) accept the penalty. That includes a number of penalties against 'my' drivers, as I find the proper following of rules more important that boasting my favorite and finding him above the rules of F1. It may seem alien to you, that there is such integrity however it is actually quite common here if you pay attention.

They were racing for position - surely you`ve seen that before, one car out of the pits defends its position from the car on track. They were at the same speed at the apex. Massa has pleeeeenty of room to go around Bourdais, yet squeezes him and they touch. There is no rule about letting the car on track past if you come out of the pits.

But, hey, the red cars rule ...

Torch

Oct 12 2008, 10:47

Originally posted by Lifew12

No he didn't; he simply kept to his line. What do you actually expect him to do: say 'oh, there's a Ferrari coming, I must let it pass'?

I'd lke an answer to this as well.

How could have SB avoided the incident? Maybe he should have predicted an ambitious move from Massa and braked for the corner far too early and in turn letting him past?

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 10:49

Originally posted by Lifew12

No he didn't; he simply kept to his line. What do you actually expect him to do: say 'oh, there's a Ferrari coming, I must let it pass'?

I expect him and any other driver exiting the pits to heed the warnings and not hit a car on track. Since Bourdais did not avoid that, he was penalized.

I simply expect that the drivers and this ALL drivers follow the rules, regulations and act accordingly on track.

Bourdais did not and was penalized.

I am not the one who have a difficult argument, I agree with the rules being enforced. There are seemingly 50% posters on this board who wants the rules only to apply to some drivers and not to others.

eoin

Oct 12 2008, 10:49

Originally posted by jk
Hard to judge without seeing Bourdais' onboard. If he indeed had an understeer and went into Massa the penalty would be justified. If Bourdais kept his line and Massa just went in too tight, it would be Massa's fault. That side shot really shows nothing.

I thought it was massa's fault when i saw it live, but after rewatching youtube i would also like to see it from bourdais car as well.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 10:52

Originally posted by peroa

They were racing for position - surely you`ve seen that before, one car out of the pits defends its position from the car on track. They were at the same speed at the apex. Massa has pleeeeenty of room to go around Bourdais, yet squeezes him and they touch. There is no rule about letting the car on track past if you come out of the pits.

But, hey, the red cars rule ...

I have seen cars race for position, and Bourdais is fully within his right to battle Massa, he can however not cause a coming together, exiting the pits. This he did and he was penalized, had he made it out in front of Massa, he would have had the line, could have kept Massa behind and unless Massa could overtake him, that would have been how they finished.

The fact that you dislike some drivers and teams is just not a very good argument for rules enforcement not being applied.

Rules enforcement was applied and the penalty handed out as it was, due to it not being given while the race was still on.

peroa

Oct 12 2008, 10:53

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I expect him and any other driver exiting the pits to heed the warnings and not hit a car on track. Since Bourdais did not avoid that, he was penalized.

I simply expect that the drivers and this [b]ALL drivers follow the rules, regulations and act accordingly on track.

Bourdais did not and was penalized.

I am not the one who have a difficult argument, I agree with the rules being enforced. There are seemingly 50% posters on this board who wants the rules only to apply to some drivers and not to others.

[/B]

What rule? Please show the article ...

Lifew12

Oct 12 2008, 10:53

[/B]

i understand what you say, but I think you are the one with the 'difficult argument'.

Bourdais did nothing wrong; he exited the pits safely and kept to the natural line. Massa put the squeeze on him, and they touched.

What, in truth, did you want him to do?

peroa

Oct 12 2008, 10:57

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I have seen cars race for position, and Bourdais is fully within his right to battle Massa, he can however not cause a coming together, exiting the pits. This he did and he was penalized, had he made it out in front of Massa, he would have had the line, could have kept Massa behind and unless Massa could overtake him, that would have been how they finished.

The fact that you dislike some drivers and teams is just not a very good argument for rules enforcement not being applied.

Rules enforcement was applied and the penalty handed out as it was, due to it not being given while the race was still on.

We are talking about the 1st corner here, where Bourdais stayed on his line and Massa dully approaches the apex like nobody was there.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e2u93VT7m2s

Difficult argument indeed ...

Torch

Oct 12 2008, 11:08

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I expect him and any other driver exiting the pits to heed the warnings and not hit a car on track. Since Bourdais did not avoid that, he was penalized.

But you haven't answered how Bourdais could have avoided the incident?

If he had out braked himself, slid off line etc then fine; penalty deserved. But he just held the inside line and did everything possible to avoid the incident. Other than come to a stop what do you expect him to do?

4MEN

Oct 12 2008, 11:12

Originally posted by ensign14

Hi, Adrian Sutil here. Can you please send this to Uncle Max? I need some points or something. Like the 5 I was going to get at Monaco before someone caused avoidable contact.

bond

Oct 12 2008, 11:13

Originally posted by Torch

But you haven't answered how Bourdais could have avoided the incident?

If he had out braked himself, slid off line etc then fine; penalty deserved. But he just held the inside line and did everything possible to avoid the incident. Other than come to a stop what do you expect him to do?

He will not answer it, nor he will provide the rule backing his arguments...

Anomander

Oct 12 2008, 11:15

from PF1

The Brazilian also denied any wrongdoing in the incident with Bourdais and instead pointed the finger of blame squarely at the luckless Toro Rosso driver.

"I was turning in the corner and then he hit me coming out of the pits. There is nothing to comment on. For me, he was a little bit too optimistic on the inside and to me it was completely wrong."

In an extraordinary heated exchange with Autosport's Jonathan Noble, Massa then suggested the journalist's viewpoint had been blinded by patriotism when he was asked about his engineers celebrating wildly in the Ferrari garage when Hamilton was shunted into a spin.

"Are you English? Is that your point of view?" he retorted.

After an undeterred Noble pressed him for an answer, Massa commented: "Any time you see a Ferrari ahead of a McLaren, it is a good thing for the team. I am not going to rise to put fire on the gravel. I have a good relationship with Lewis, and I will not do something to destroy something by purpose. That is true

Seems Noble was going for it a bit.

ensign14

Oct 12 2008, 11:17

Originally posted by Anomander

"Are you English? Is that your point of view?" he retorted.

Let the record show Massa raised the question of national bias.

angst

Oct 12 2008, 11:19

How the hell could Bourdais have manouvred to avoid Massa driving into him? Massa had miles of space around the outside of Bourdais and clearly just drove into Bourdais. F1 , unfortunately, is now an absolute joke. It's so bent, and obviously so, that one can barely begin to imagine on what basis the decisions are being made....

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 11:20

Originally posted by peroa

We are talking about the 1st corner here, where Bourdais stayed on his line and Massa dully approaches the apex like nobody was there.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e2u93VT7m2s

Difficult argument indeed ...

You seem not to understand / agree that the driver exiting the pits are the one who can not cause the avoidable contact. Bourdais racing Massa have several options:

1) Making it in front of Massa, and take the corner in front.

2) Slotting in behind Massa.

3) Racing Massa and not hitting him.

Bourdais chose a cause of action, which led him to hit Massa, that is what he was correctly penalized for.

And you are arguing the a fact with if's, and's, or's and but's - I am simply saying as I did from before the penalty was even handed out.

Bourdais should get 25 seconds added to his race time, exactly as the Stewards decided to do. My line of difficult arguing, is that you seems to want that Bourdais is not given a penalty for the exact same offense that Massa got his for on lap 2.

And this is where I lose all the hand-wringing.

Hamilton penalty = bad

Massa penalty = good

Bourdais penalty = bad

So when Ferrari is penalized it is correct and just, when other drivers are in the same race, it is pro-Ferrari.

So in the last two races, where Massa have been penalized those penalties were correct. And I am the one being blamed for carrying special standards?

I have zero issue with any penalty against a Ferrari this season, like I have zero issue with any of the penalties issued to other drivers. I accept that they all need to follow the rules, which really should not be difficult to understand.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 11:22

Yes I have answered, but since there are so many threads maybe not in this one.

Bourdais should have used his left foot, and applied more brake, and slotted in behind Massa. That is what I used to do when I was racing.

sblinx

Oct 12 2008, 11:22

why don't they hand massa the championship immediately .... and we'll stop watching this crappy year

IMO they're inventing penalties when there's no need

if you watch the start today almost all cars went long ... even alonso said that he was long in the first corner. how many times have we seen drivers braking late in the first (and maybe not only in the first!) corner. is this going to be the next issue .... is someone goes long he's given a drive-thru?

this is becoming a steward's championship!!

PS does somebody know exactly what happened to hamilton just after the first corner ... when he was just alongside alonso and then when pics returned live he was behind massa in 6th?

bond

Oct 12 2008, 11:26

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Yes I have answered, but since there are so many threads maybe not in this one.

Bourdais should have used his left foot, and applied more brake, and slotted in behind Massa. That is what I used to do when I was racing.

Soo why didn't massa do exactly that when he exited the pits and encountered a toro ross...
Instead he just continued to fight for the position and came ahead...
Right...

angst

Oct 12 2008, 11:26

Probably why you're not racing any more then, eh? If you are ahead of another driver and he's going to just drive into the side of you....you'd just brake and let them through???? What a racer

theE

Oct 12 2008, 11:29

I do not remember it in details but wasn't it similar between Robert and Kimi? Similar, in terms of race circumstances. But that time one driver, Kimi, respected the other driver.
It was also nice to watch their battle later on, hard and fair.

peroa

Oct 12 2008, 11:30

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

You seem not to understand / agree that the driver exiting the pits are the one who can not cause the avoidable contact.

Sorry?
Massa is the one who could have avoided the accident, he comes from behind, has the overview.
The only thing that came into Massa`s way was his arrogance as he thought Bourdais would just disappear once he sees a red car.
FFS, Bourdais stays on his inside line the whole time and by the time he comes to the 1st corner it doesn`t even matter if he comes from the pits or not.

Bourdais racing Massa have several options:

1) Making it in front of Massa, and take the corner in front.

2) Slotting in behind Massa.

3) Racing Massa and not hitting him.

Bourdais chose a cause of action, which led him to hit Massa, that is what he was correctly penalized for.

So Bourdais hit Massa. Massa didn`t just drive like an idiot and aimed for the same patch of tarmac Bourdais was already on?

peroa

Oct 12 2008, 11:31

Originally posted by angst

Probably why you're not racing any more then, eh? If you are ahead of another driver and he's going to just drive into the side of you....you'd just brake and let them through???? What a racer

GStephen

Oct 12 2008, 11:35

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Bourdais should have used his left foot, and applied more brake, and slotted in behind Massa. That is what I used to do when I was racing.

Thats probably why you never made it to F1

CaptnMark

Oct 12 2008, 11:36

Originally posted by whatto999
On the left people are screaming that they want more wheel-to-wheel fight - whole F1 world wants it. By declaration, FIA works through technical regulations to achive that.

There was great wheel-to-wheel fight between Massa and Webber. This penalty gives Webber a point, which he deserves, IMO.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 11:41

I would not cause an accident when exiting the pits, not sure why me not getting a penalty is less smart than Bourdais getting one.

Here are the rules governing overtaking:

Overtaking
a) During a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
b) If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use
of his rear-view mirror the fl ag marshal(s) will give a warning by
waving the blue fl ag to indicate that another competitor wants to
overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue fl ag may be
penalised by the Sporting Stewards.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of
the offender from the race.
c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.
d) Any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited.
The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fanshaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue fl ag will be waved.
e) The penalty infl icted for ignoring the blue fl ag will also be applied
to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be more
severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging from
a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The same penalty shall be
applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the
other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking.
f) The repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack
of control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the
exclusion of the drivers concerned.
g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.

I would be surprised if there were not differing interpretations of this, however I see this rule as clearly stating Bourdais were under Blue flag, and had to yield to Massa, he failed to do that and was penalized.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 11:43

Originally posted by peroa

Sorry?
Massa is the one who could have avoided the accident, he comes from behind, has the overview.
The only thing that came into Massa`s way was his arrogance as he thought Bourdais would just disappear once he sees a red car.
FFS, Bourdais stays on his inside line the whole time and by the time he comes to the 1st corner it doesn`t even matter if he comes from the pits or not.

So Bourdais hit Massa. Massa didn`t just drive like an idiot and aimed for the same patch of tarmac Bourdais was already on?

Massa is the driver on track, he has right of way to the corner, as Bourdais did not make it out in front of him, and Bourdais is the driver who have to yield.

I just want the rules to be followed, not sure why you do not.

KWSN - DSM

Oct 12 2008, 11:45

Originally posted by GStephen

Thats probably why you never made it to F1

There would be many reasons, one and most likely paramount lag of talent.

But was never really an option to gain ground by braking rules, as all that would get you was a black flag. So slotting in, and then overtaking in the next corner was more my style.

angst

Oct 12 2008, 11:45

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

I would not cause an accident when exiting the pits, not sure why me not getting a penalty is less smart than Bourdais getting one.

Here are the rules governing overtaking:

I would be surprised if there were not differing interpretations of this, however I see this rule as clearly stating Bourdais were under Blue flag, and had to yield to Massa, he failed to do that and was penalized.

Where is the blue flag? You know that this is in reference to a driver being lapped, not fighting for position? You know that, don't you, having raced yourself...Try again Sherlock.

So, let's get back to what circumstance we are really talking about;

c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.

So; did Bourdais, perhaps make a premature change of direction, or maybe more than one change of direction? No. Did he deliberately crowd the other car toward the insiode or the outside of the track? No, in fact this is exactly what Massa did. Did he make any abnormal change of direction? No.

angst

Oct 12 2008, 11:52

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Massa is the driver on track, he has right of way to the corner, as Bourdais did not make it out in front of him, and Bourdais is the driver who have to yield.

I just want the rules to be followed, not sure why you do not.

Are you now claiming that Bourdais wasn't on the track? I've watched it again and again, and he clearly is on the track - after the white line, and he does nothing to impede the driver through the curve, in any way that the regulation you have cited refers to. He is on the track and he in no way obstructs Massa from taking a line through the curve. He does not change direction, he does not crowd Massa - in afct Mass crowds, very deliberately, Bourdais to the inside of the track.

ensign14

Oct 12 2008, 11:55

deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited

Right, so that demonstrates Massa's crowding of Bourdais to the inside of the curve was unlawful, where's the penalty?

Madeup Name

Oct 12 2008, 12:37

Forget who you support for a second - the governance of this sport has now become an absolute joke.
Any move which involves cars touching is now investigated, and usually punished in an unpredictable way.

Yet defensive driving is never investigated, even extreme squeezing of drivers to the edge of the road. So all the rule changes for next year are irrelevant - the stewards are making overtaking an unnecessary risk.

And why do some decisions get delayed until after the race? All the evidence needed was there to make a decision on the FM / SB incident, and there was time aplenty. You have to conclude there is something fishy in the timing.

A real farce, and a very sad place for F1 to be.

Imperial

Oct 12 2008, 12:47

Originally posted by Anomander
This is really getting stupid

You summed it up mate.

Brundle also summed it up on ITV (forget which of the many incidents it specifically related to) but he said something along the lines of "It's become a bit of nanny-state, we're all holding our breath waiting to see if a driver will be investigated for every move".

I too am sick of this sh!t. We may as well just read the classified results and not bother watching the "race" on tv.

F1 Tor.

Oct 12 2008, 13:11

Originally posted by Imperial

You summed it up mate.

Brundle also summed it up on ITV (forget which of the many incidents it specifically related to) but he said something along the lines of "It's become a bit of nanny-state, we're all holding our breath waiting to see if a driver will be investigated for every move".

I too am sick of this sh!t. We may as well just read the classified results and not bother watching the "race" on tv.

It was funny when Massa passed Webber near the end when he went way to the right and passed deep on the inside. James and Martin's first thoughts were:Nice move, wait..is he going to get penalized for crossing the pit lane lines?

Mila

Oct 12 2008, 13:16

Originally posted by RedBaron
Shhhhhhh: [b]Canada 1998

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ykv7dYrGSBs

Schumacher got a penalty for this. [/B]

I'm quite sure that Schumacher was penalized for exiting the pits while the pit exit was closed.

Buttoneer

Oct 12 2008, 14:29

Originally posted by F1 Tor.

It was funny when Massa passed Webber near the end when he went way to the right and passed deep on the inside. James and Martin's first thoughts were:Nice move, wait..is he going to get penalized for crossing the pit lane lines?

That was James suggesting Massa might get a penalty and I'm not altogether sure he was not advocating one rather than worried about it. Brundle offered the view that no we can't be sure about the rule enforcement anymore and JA immediately shut up in a 'oh wait, that's not what I meant' way.

But then the hour was early and I might be mistaken.

snx843

Oct 12 2008, 14:43

Nanny State!

tkulla

Oct 12 2008, 15:03

Originally posted by Buttoneer

That was James suggesting Massa might get a penalty and I'm not altogether sure he was not advocating one rather than worried about it. Brundle offered the view that no we can't be sure about the rule enforcement anymore and JA immediately shut up in a 'oh wait, that's not what I meant' way.

But then the hour was early and I might be mistaken.

Watching it here in the States (no Brundle) I thought the exact same thing he did - crossing into the pit exit at that speed seemed extremely unsafe to me. I was actually surprised that nothing came of that. Of all the incidents in the race, that seemed like the most dangerous to me, but I guess there was no rule against it.

wewantourdarbyback

Oct 12 2008, 17:02

It was Massa's fault as far as I could see (for the second time in the race) Bourdais came out onto the inside line and stayed there, then took the inside of the corner and Massa turned across him.

The incident with Webber was just stupid, if Webber had squeezed him like some drivers would there could have been an horrible accident, no penalty for me there but he needs a slap because today his behaviour has been getting like his old Sauber self.

Rob

Oct 12 2008, 17:11

Massa's fault. Spinning himself out was justice - there was no need for a penalty. I'd assumed that Massa was under investigation when the message popped up on screen, it didn't even occur to me that anyone might believe Bourdais was at fault!

This is a sodding joke. What is the FIA playing at? No right of appeal for Seb either.

Just a quick note for the Autosport writers - please at least have the balls to question this penalty when writing up the race. Please question the FIA as you are journalists after all. If you keep toeing the official line then there will never be change.

Juan Kerr

Oct 12 2008, 17:16

They'll desperately try and delete any onboard footage I bet.

Chubby_Deuce

Oct 12 2008, 17:33

Now.. I don't post here much anymore unless it's about bikes nor do I get to watch much F1... but I did last night. The first thing I thought when Massa hit Sebastian was "What an idiot, surely he'll be penalized". Of course I was referring to Massa. Sebastian lost time in the incident in which he stayed to the bottom of the track only to be hit by a Ferrari that was in a hurry to make up time for a previous mistake.

How on earth does Sebastian take the blame for this? Unbelievable. Don't know if I'll watch much F1 after this.

Dudley

Oct 12 2008, 19:41

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
Now.. I don't post here much anymore unless it's about bikes nor do I get to watch much F1... but I did last night. The first thing I thought when Massa hit Sebastian was "What an idiot, surely he'll be penalized". Of course I was referring to Massa. Sebastian lost time in the incident in which he stayed to the bottom of the track only to be hit by a Ferrari that was in a hurry to make up time for a previous mistake.

How on earth does Sebastian take the blame for this? Unbelievable. Don't know if I'll watch much F1 after this.

You're getting any answers here mate

Good to see you around though.

MikeTekRacing

Oct 12 2008, 19:44

surely you feel the same about the massa hamilton incident?

Tenmantaylor

Oct 12 2008, 19:59

The worlds gone mad in that we are all still going to watch the final two races.

Clatter

Oct 12 2008, 20:23

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
The worlds gone mad in that we are all still going to watch the final two races.

It's like a rabbit being caught in the headlights. Your scared in case you miss the next ridiculous FIA moment.

Chubby_Deuce

Oct 12 2008, 21:32

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

surely you feel the same about the massa hamilton incident?

I don't know the details, started watching at half way. What does it matter anyway?

The incident between Massa and Hamilton doesn't change the fact that a guy who tried to give room to a faster car with tyres that were up to temperature got hit and then penalized in the best race of his career. There's no give and take here. Or maybe there is. Take from the backmarkers and give the title to the fan favorites.

pacwest

Oct 12 2008, 22:00

Originally posted by RedBaron
Shhhhhhh: [b]Canada 1998

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ykv7dYrGSBs

Schumacher got a penalty for this. So Bourdais' penalty is correct and consistent. [/B]

Yes but Schumacher crossed the white line and forced someone off. Bourdais followed a racing line that kept him off the grass and Massa came into him. Well past the white line. Apples and oranges. This was for position don't forget. Bourdais had every right to defend without going on the grass.

There should have been no penalty for either driver.

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