Hmm. you are obviously a Ferrari fan......Massa deserves the championship???? WHY? Whilst I support Hammy, as he is a fellow Brit, I would say from a "doing a good job deserves the championship" point of view, Alonso or Kubica deserve the WDC over those two.

I was kind of half joking dude, as we're always so focused on number of race wins on this board. Anyone that's won a WDC is deserving IMO. Chill.

Heh. Still, IMO race wins is a more accurate and fair method to determine the most deserving driver than championship points. Although none are as good as actually watching the races, and forming a defensible opinion based on all the evidence to hand.

Yeah. It allows each and every one of us to declare anyone we like for the one and only 'worthy and deserving' WDC.

This world championship is the same as 1996-1997, the best driver is in a crapy car. Schumacher in 1996-97 and Alonso in 2008.

Massa is on a same level as a Coulthard was in his day. Fast at a few circuits, average at others. He is just lucky that Kimi has lost the will to drive.

It will be another Hill-esque championship. Good, decent driver wins championship. But not a legend.

109-109-108 suggests the WDC wasn't went to the hand that deserved it most.

And don't count Interlagos a real victory.

I see.

Somebody is playing Saint Lewis Blues here..

I´d say Massa has good chances to become the most underrated champion of all times.

While people on this board compete on most myopic fans in the history of F1 award.

Obviously, I voted NO.

Whoever gets more points deserves it, but Lewis fans will claim Massa doesn't deserve it, and Ferrari fans will claim Lewis doesn't deserve it

Spot on. Whoever has the most points at the end is a worthy Champion. What isn't worthy is the fact we've got people like the opening poster, sticking up idiotic threads like this and claiming to be fans of the sport.

Next year this "im still not experienced enough" talk from Lewis is not gonna fly anymore.In your third year you should know the shit you do.

I have to say that the 'your only good as your last race' is being taken to the absolute nth degree. Why people don't have the ability to look at the season as a whole is completely mystifying and highly frustrating. The issue is that season has been highly competitive with very close competitiveness in cars, hence few 1-2 finishes and more chance for incident. If either Hamilton or Massa had a clear car advantage throughout the season they would have dominated the season and nobody would be questioning their credentials to this degree.

Hamilton has benefitted from McLaren's speed in the cold/wet. Massa has developed from Ferrari's speed in the heat. Kubica has benefitted from BMW's reliability and ability to collect when others mess up. Alonso has benefitted from lowered expectations at the beginning of season, so when he puts two good races together in a row to get some wins, he's suddenly the messiah and mess-ups at the beginning of the season are forgotten. All have put in good races and bad races this season.

HAhahaha

this thread is a joke...

Kubica, Hami or Felipe all of them will be worthy champions.

Hami and Felipe are the wild ones. Awesome moves but some bold mistakes too, while Kubica is always there to capitalise.

It's a interesting question. I voted yes.
He should share the prize with the stewards.

I wonder why? Might it be because he beat Kimi?

Massa or Hamilton, also add Raikkonen, i just can´t remember a championship with the guys on the better cars doing such a season full of mistakes, bad races, dumbs moves...this has to be one of the worst season ever in that sense.

How would Kubica have fared mistakes wise if he'd had the pressure of being a real title throughout the season? Impossible to say. I definitely agree he's performed very well though.

It also seems to have been forgotten due to his recent wins, but Alonso made quite a few mistakes earlier in the season too.

Massa or Hamilton.

Both would be the least worthy World Champion. At least this chaotic year.

In Lewis today we were seeing the reason why no 23-year-old has ever won the wdc.

If LH can win it, he'll have beaten Max/Donnelly as well as the other drivers IMO. I am quite sure Max runs the stewards through Donnelly, and he really doesn't want Ron to win.

If Felipe wins it, then every season there are always points that can go this way and that, so for me "Max's points" won't stop me congratulating him and respecting him as the champion. With Rob Smedley especially, I'll see him as a joint champion. Felipe has often been very fast, and they'll have beaten Kimi/Dyer too, that's not bad.

For me 1994 is the only year in recent times in which the championship really went to the wrong driver, brilliant though he was.

EvilPhil II.... What a sore loser you are... this just to stop it here and not going into your psychologicall issues...

1996 Hill had to actually fight and beat Villeneuve with a team that treated them the same. Easily the most worthless in recent history are 2004 and 2002. Only the Ferrari could win and Schumacher STILL acts like a complete coward by making his team castrate Rubens, his only threat.

Hopefully, one day you'll get tired of posting the same garbage over and over. We get it. You hate Schumacher. F%^$ Off already.

I don't think f1 drivers title mean what they used to do, I would like to see the drivers title banned, and just concentrate on the constructors, it's a team sport after all, and the machine these days make most of them look close to each other anyhow. Only Schumacher stood out with his team leadership plus along with his driving talent work ethic, someone like that deserves the title before the season has even started, now you got children playing with no master around, the sport witrhout Senna and Schumacher has taken a huge void from the title, no one really getting the title is going to change anything, the sport has taken the excitement out of getting a title. The points system is designed for title showdowns, but actual races means setteling for boring positions rather then going all out for wins most of the time Conserving engines, vomit, 2nd place guy sits 2 points away from winner on 10 points, vomit, 2nd place is like a mini win during the season, only during the last rounds do you require to absolutely go for the win to beat your rival, what sort of sport is that, it's disgusting what the fia and those involved have turned f1 into, and we can't do one thing about it, money talks and bs walks.

good post

either hami or massa would be good, problem is for massa he needs to makeup 5+7+1 points over hamilton otherwise itll be widely regarded as a gifted championship by the hardcore fans, but...

schumi is a 7xwdc, despite 1994 he really shouldnt of been for a whole host of reasons.

massa has just got todo the best he can, and so does lewis.

this poll is a good laugh

The least worthy WDC title belongs to D Hill, that's indisputable.

Yet he beat JV in the sane car. JV's in 1997 is less worthy.

JV is second in that list

That is utter bullshit.

Damon drove his heart out that season and the only time he truly screwed up when it counted was at Monza when he crashed out of the win and locking the WDC early, in Portugal he was in damage control with a gearbox that was about to explode, and he went and beat all comers in Japan. He was a deserving champion that year.

The only reason people get on Damon is because what happened in 1995. True, he cracked, but at least he LEARNED his mistakes and duly won the title the next year, unlike a certain Englishman today.

Both Hamilton and Massa are just stumbling over each other. If there's a championship of comparison, it should probably be 1982 or 1983.

right, JV beat Michael that year, how unworthy his WDC truly was...

umm, shurely hill beat schumi in 96 too ?
id go with 94

Oh look, another idiotic thread.

-leaves

This year is another one of those years where you wish they didn't have to award a World Champion because neither of the two guys who will probably win it really had a stellar 'world champion' season.

Both Massa and Hamilton have made too many errors. Raikkonen and Kovalainen have been poor. It's a shame we have those 4 guys in the top 4 seats.


The top 3 for me this year (random order) are Kubica, Vettel and Alonso.


To the topic question, no. 1996, 1997 and 1982 spring to mind first.

1996 and 1997 were pretty fine deserved titles in my book. (Massa still isn't no Damon or Villeneuve, not by a looooooooooooong shot)
Very unlike 1994, where the cheats did come out on TOP after all! So disgusting!

And if Massa wins it now in 2008, it won't be listed as the most undeserved, because it doesn't outclass 1994 at all.... but you could blame it on the car then, because the passenger Massa isn't really, howdoyoucallit, .... WDC material in my book.

If Hamilton wins it, it shows how easy F1 is nowadays, ... who was it what said that drivers aren't needed in modern F1? .... They should let monkey's drive the cars, ... it was Lauda I believe some years ago already....

Yea and then he test drove one of the cars of the jaguar team and was something like 30 seconds a lap slower than the slowest of those ''monkeys''

I think Massa's joined Prost, Senna and Schumacher in the list of drivers who have used punting their rival off as a tactic in trying to win a WDC.

The difference is, Prost, Senna and Schumacher could all at least be described as flawed geniuses.

Massa is just flawed.

That is disputable and I dispute it with every fabric of my being.

Hm...


In answer to the poll question--NO! IF FM wins the WDC, he deserves it. He is driving the fastest car and trouncing the current WDC in the same car. That result speaks for itself.

Well two more races to go, but lets just assume they go smoothly and Massa does win it by a couple points.

Does it make Massa not-deserving champion? Good lord no. He's lost many, many points due to no fault of his own. So even if he's gained unfair points in other races, balancing his luck out still turns out quite a few points lost.

You could say that Ferrari as a team aren't as deserving, but not Massa himself.

I wanted Massa to win originally, but I can't support someone who has had such unjustified and frankly embarassing levels of help. I still think he's a great driver and a nice bloke, but he just doesn't deserve this championship imo.

By my reckoning (taking in the injustices of Canada, Valencia, Spa and Japan) Massa has benefited from a 20 point swing in the points standings and Lewis already IS the moral champion for 2009 in my book. There are not enough points available for Massa to now win this championship purely.

Canada?!
Valencia where he was the fastest guy out there?
injustices?

how about justice in singapore and hungary?

I'd really like you to explain how you arrived at those 20 points, race-by-race.

And you're already concluding that Lewis is the moral champion for 2009?!?!?

The title and the poll question are different. I agree that there will be problems if Massa wins the WDC by fewer than 6 points, but that doesn't make him unworthy. As others have noted, his engine failure in Hungary and the team's error in Singapore have made this year's WDC close, plus Massa has had to beat his teammate, whom many believe is the best driver in F1. Massa has lost several points from being behind his teammate, which Hamilton has hardly ever suffered from -- because of the quality of the teammates.

Originally posted by EvilPhil II



No. Massa and Lewis will crash again in Shangai and Kubica will be on the way to a great and deserved glory in Interlagos.

Canada Lewis got a Grid Penalty in the following race for crashing out into a competitor by accident. Do they normally give penalties for crashing out by accident. No. Missed out on at least 6 points in France.

Velencia, Massa got a $5000 fine for dangerous pit exit and at the very next race got a drive through FOR THE SAME OFFENCE!!! Its irrelevant that he was the fastest in Valencia, he should have been given a drive through.

And we're not talking about mechanical failures. That has nothing to do with governing bias. Is the fact your attempting to lead the debate off track is in the absence of an arguement?

i think the distinction people are trying to make is that the FIA have ententialy gifted massa points, while engine failures etc are part of the game, natural order of things. what shouldnt atleast be part of the natural order of things is governing body gifts and bias...

massa has had 7 points gifted over hamilton (6 for spa, 1 for bourdais)...

so he needs to score 5 +7, 12 points more than lewis in the next 2 races, maybe a extra 1 depending on how the wins/best results if level pan out

u forget or excuse Prost in '89 and Schu in '94?

Lewis robbed of:

1. At least 6 points in France because he shouldn't have had a grid penalty for an accidental crash.
2. 4 points in Spa and 2 unfairly gained by Massa because Lewis shouldn't have been given a 25 point penalty for breaking a rule that was created AFTER the event.
3. At least 2 points in Japan as he would have been in the points without the drive through for locking up at a corner and Massa gained 2 as the Bourdais penalty was a joke.
4. Massa should have been given a 25 sec penalty after the dangerous pit exit in Valencia - would have cost about 4.

Ta da. 20 points swing.

They don't got so few actually. But that's because of the points system.

If we were under the old system, Hamilton and Massa would be even at 68 points. You have to go back to the eighties (when there were a lot more mechanical failures) to find comparable years. In 1987 Piquet won with 73 points, Mansell was second with 61 (remember, back then the championship had 16 races, just the same number there have been so far this year). In 1986 Prost won on 72 against Piquet's 70 and Mansell's 69.

Finally, in 1983, Nelson Piquet won the title with 59 points, against Prost's 57. But there were just 15 races that year.

1) Lewis not only broke a rule violation(ignoring the red light), but in doing so, took out his championship rival. Had he simply passed the pitlane exit line and not hit anybody, he would have just been black flagged. There's not really a precedent for this to go by as its never happened before, but I think it was a justified penalty, and should definitely be the precedent should it happen again.

2) Well not gonna go into it in detail or anything, but the rule he was actually penalized for was there before. Its the steward's discretion to penalize for this. Not gonna argue whether it was justified or not, just wanted to clarify your inaccurate statement.

3) I tend to agree that he shouldn't have been penalized for his late braking into Turn 1 as the supposed 'contact' with Kimi isn't really visible to me. However, we cant automatically assume his race would have gone incident free had he not gotten the drive through. More likely, he would have been up against faster cars that are harder to pass. Maybe he would have gotten back in the points, maybe not. And I can agree on Bourdais' penalty, though that only gained Massa 1 point.

4) I disagree about Massa getting a penalty for the pitrelease in Valencia. For one, the 'dangerous pitbox exit' rule is there to stop people in pitlane from getting hurt, and since they were beyond all the pitboxes this wasn't an issue. Also, they never came close to contact as Massa seemed to know he was there right away. Plus, it would have been completely inconsistent to have given him a penalty for that considering we've seen that happen tons of times in the past without any penalties given for it.

That said, even if I were to give you that 20 point swing in Lewis' favor, you still have to consider that as a Driver's Championship, Massa would not be undeserving if he won it because he's lost more than 20 points due to circumstances out of his control. You could argue Ferrari dont deserve the WDC, though.