ok we already have the fans of respective teams/ drivers venting in other threads but here is my point: I wish the FIA would just cut it out with all these absurd penalties & 'investigations'. I'm thinking all the way back to the start of the season when one (or was two) of the Macs were penanlized for impeding somebody in qualifying, then we had some bullshit with Ferari starting on the wrong tires or something, and Hamilton @ Spa, and some unsafe pitlane release bs, then Kubi & Rosberg getting penalties for circumstances completely beyond their control under the safety car 'rules' (I think that's the 2nd time for Rosberg now). And now we have all this Japanese Grand Prix malarkey with Hamilton, Massa, and Bourdais all getting questionable penalties.

From my distant seat I see it this way: cut it out and just let'em race! Mistakes happen in the heat of competition, sometimes they will collide, so be it. A penalty should only be applied in the case of something that is brazenly obvious and even then discression please. This past weekend's events really just underline that the FIA needs to reel itself (not the drivers) in. I'm sick of manipulation.

I don't really want this thread to degenerate into a 'my driver didn't deserve it at (name of venue) but his rival did, blah, blah. Or 'they are biased for or against..(insert name of driver/ team). There's already plenty of that available here in other threads. I would like to hear people's opinions on the bigger issue of the (imo) excessive amount of penanlties being applied in general. It seems like the FIA just doesn't wanna let the teams/ drivers race the cars to me. I know that some control is needed, but I've been a fan for 30+ yrs and honestly it seems to me that things are getting wacky. I long for the return of the simple 'racing incident'; which is what I believe most of this stuff is asfter all. And penalizing guys for the absurd safety car rules is just,...well..absurd.

Pls discuss.

That was last year - Japan 2007. FIA instructed everyone to start on extreme wets.

Yes excellent, I think we had some bs penalties last year too.

But not too much noise against penalties last year.

I wonder (not really) why penalties are questionable this year and not last year.

I don't think there were as many dubious decisions as this year, but they were certainly well discussed (FA blocking LH in the pits, LH being craned back on track).

The problem is the total inconsistency of when and how penalties are applied, and the way they are used to manipulate the championship. Alonso was also the victim of some very dubious decisions during his championship years, so this is nothing new, but there does seem to have been more this year than I can remember in any previous season.

It's not just F1 that's got a string of dodgy penalties lately. Another for example was the penalty to exclude a Rally driver from the Trackrod Rally, as the pin holding his steering wheel in place was not to specification...

For F1 though, they really do need to just rip up the entire rules / regulations book and start all over again.

I think someone mentioned as a dubious decision penalties pitting under SC:


Don't you think it's a clear rule, and penalties are deserved?

I thought I was clear. The safety cars rules are rediculous, so a penalty is applicable but hardly 'deserved'.

It's the rule that's dubious, the application was correct, although somewhat late in being applied, but do you think the penalty for pitting under SC should be greater than that of an unsafe release?

I have a somewhat wacky idea on how we might get back to "honest" racing.
Next year, before the parade lap of the first race, Max gets up and announces which Ferrari driver will receive the WDC award at the end of the season.
He then explains to the assembled masses that he is doing this in the interests of "total transparency by the FIA"
Then we all get to watch the 20 best drivers in the world, racing in the best cars, for the rest of the season.

I think I would be more interested in watching that than what I am subjected to at the present time.

I'm not questioning the rule (by the way I think penalties for pitting under SC are ridiculous). I'm wondering why too much noise about it this year, and not last year. 2007 WDC could have been a different one if, as an example, the SC rule didn't exist.

You think this year championship is tainted with absurd penalties, wait until next year if Maxxx is still there. With the new car spec, there will be more actions on track which would equal to more absurd penalties. So who here still think that F1 needs more overtaking?

I think that Max should fulfil his megalomaniacal tendencies by not picking a driver to win the WDC who was probably going to win it anyway.

If he decided that, say, Piquet ought to be World Champion, he'd have a challenge worthy of his stature and intelligence, surely?

Irony alert:

The current penalty system evolved during the nineties largely due to the actions of a now retired driver who consistently pushed the envelope as to what were acceptable manoeuvres on the track.

Now it’s his successors in his old team who regularly benefit!

How did that happen?

Add both US sports car series as well. As I mentioned in a thread last month I'm astounded that someone could get penalized for a collision at Lime Rock or Detroit when there are 4 classes negotiating such circuits, or for a minor bump on a restart.

There is a way to avoid post race penalty controversy. This can be done by taking the points from a guilty driver but the drivers who finished behind him won't benefit from the penalty, they can only keep the points that they already have.

From the thread start:


Interesting to see a "autosport.com writer" join in by trolling....

He's not trolling he's entirely correct.

It's Hamilton thats defining the rulebook now, difference is Schuies were all "thats acceptable" Hami's are all "thats not"

I'm sorry but you have to have rules and breaking them must lead to fines, the trouble is its being abused. Leaving the pits dagerously could lead to awful consequences or taking someone out of the race by spinning them around isn't fair. The problem is various different fines have been imposed the subsequently lead to help Ferrari that appear to be not neccessary and wrongly imposed.
There has always been fines and controlling of the rules but when these fines are used as a vehicle to manipulate the championship everyone will inevitably say the fines are wreckingt he sport. Its not the fines its the morons interpreting the rules wrongly .

They should get rid of penalties involving collisions. This safe pit release rubbish also.

F1 got along fine in the 80's and 90's when there were plenty of collisions between drivers down the field and also championship contenders.

i think the key word people are missing is discretion, the stewards/FIA just dont seem to have any :\. for example i think i came up with something like 12 reasons not to penalise hamilton at spa

something like
1)kimi got past later in the lap (plus atleast 4 seconds)
2)race control said it was ok
3)ferrari didnt complain, nor any other team
4)kimi pushed him off
5)he gave back the position
6)lewis was argueably ahead
7)avoided collision
8)penalty was baised on conjecture, and not on the preseeding moments which could be verified (video, photo, teletrey etc)
9)the "advantage" stuff
10)stewards really slow (team/driver not given the chance to correct the mistake)
11)lewis was much faster, atleast in terms of traction/braking (thats presumably why he closed so much on the loong flatout black to the chicane, and into la source) and more stable
12) kimi didnt finish
13)kimi gained a advantage several times during the race by running offtrack
14)lewis slower across the line
15)the conditions
16)public felt robbed/betrayed to a large extent
now you might not agree with all the points, or think that some are iirelivent, but theres a whole host of reasons there to dismiss.

the case for a penalty rests on esentialy
"lewis wouldnt of been close enough to make a move if he followed kimi" how do work that out? how far back?, how do we know he wouldnt of got a much better launch off the corner, and be able to challenge into turn 1, how do u know he wouldnt be *just* close enough to make the move? in the dry id accept you could make a pretty good prediction, but in the wet on dry tyres?

as far as i could see its such a marginal call on weather he should be penalised they should of just fined him or something

same with bourdais penalty, from what weve seen it looked all massa's fault, or atleast mostly, really hard to get a distance persepective from the 1 camera shot, and perhaps seb couldnt keep that ultratight line, but massa should of left him more room, or be going wider to use all the track, giving someone on new tyres, fat load of fuel hardly any room isnt a great idea, specialy as new tyres have a mould release agent on them i think, which is abit slippy....

A bunch of us noticed at Singapore that Alonso effectively cut the chicane at turn 1 on the first lap and gained a position that he failed to give back, see:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9715/alonsorubensnv4.jpg

At the time it was suggested that due to the incident happening on lap 1 and in turn 1, it was pretty much a free for all in terms of cars going off the track and advantages, and thats why he wasn't punished.

But after todays penalty for Hamilton seems to suggest otherwise. So why wasn't Alonso given a penalty? After all, he went on to win the race. You could argue his off wasn't really his fault, he was pushed off.. fair enough, but it's clear I think from the pictures above that he did not give back the total number of places gained. You may suggest he had no way of knowing what he gained, but thats not the point surely.

But it just seems to be a case of inconsitant application of the rules.

And when you look at these photos:

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117062
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117064
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117065

You could begin to ask yourself who really was to blame for Raikkonen going off, Hamilton or Kovalinen who was also locked up. And look at Massa in the background, he went off the track too, seemingly of his own accord.. he was no where near Hamilton.. he was on the other side of Raikkonen.

A little confused.

good pics..

Race Fixing?: This penalty situation is turning F1 into farce! The stewards are effectively deciding the placings & eventually the championship! We don't need consistency in meddling - we just need them to butt out & stop interfering!

Right now it looks like a Ferrari conspiracy against McLaren! Why single out Hamilton in the -typical - first corner mayhem? Massa gets a slap on the wrist for driving Hamilton off the road but the drive through cost him less track position than Hamilton lost in the spin. Why didn't Massa get penalised for shunting Bourdais as he came out of the pit? Instead, Bourdais got a penalty for presuming to be on the racing line when a Ferrari was contesting the position! Total cr*p!

Think back to other championships - Senna took no prisoners. Schumacher was notorious for hard driving & chopping up anyone who got in his way. Remember Schumacher taking Hill out to clinch the championship? Mansell, anybody?

I've followed F1 for my adult life but I'm totally fed up with it. The only solution to this nonsense is to switch away from F1 to other forms of racing - BTCC is much more exciting, & MotoGP is real bare-knuckle competititon - no stewards' inquiries into bumping & boring here. F1 should be the premier motorsport but now it is just a waste of a Sunday afternoon, & too irritating to watch when interference in the results just fixes the race. As for paying real money to go to the circuit - forget it!

It was deserved, Hamilton straightlined the chicane, had Kimi tried to make that corner they would have crashed. Heikki just screwed him further and should have received another penalty.
And as to Massa going off track "of his own accord", No. He would have rear ended Heikki if he didn't.

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117062

Also watch this.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xq5Q07SOxs

he was level with heiki....
i think massa's thought process was

ahhh a nice start ! now ill just go left, get a nice wide entry to the corner and go around the outside and ill be right up there

shit.


wow phew

There were lots of questionable penalties last year if you think back. One of them (Vettel at Fuji getting 10 place grid penalty for China) was dropped after representations. Not to mention Alonso's Hungary grid drop which has to be near the top of the 'this server is too busy please try again later' moments this board has seen.

But overall, if memory serves, there were less penalties during the year which were conjured up out of thin air.

I put it down to one factor: permanent steward. We should have Scott-Andrews back.

Yeah, but Scott-Andrews refused to be Max's lap dog so the chances of him coming back are even less than there being no penalties handed out in the last two races.

I think we had several 'questionable' penalties last year, and a lot of noise too. Particularly with regard to a $100,000,000 fine.

Trolling has nothing to do with being right or wrong.
He was trolling because he attempted to hijack the thread.

What are you talking about. Spygate was dubious and that's all we talked about!

Additional: lock mr. Donnelly up at a safe distance, and keep Max busy with something else for the weekend.

F1 would be a better place now if Schumacher would have been disqualified for life in 1997.
there would be more racecraft on the track if "white lines" were taken seriously: you put all four wheels over white line and you are out of the race. runoff areas are to save lives, not to compensate shitty driving.

You know that's an utterly stupid thing to say. Whenever someone outbreaks his opponent at the end of a straight and uses the inner racing line the outbreaked driver is automatically not able to just go into the turn as he normally would. Just look at Massa-Bourdais. Massa tried what you suggest and he crashed. It just doesn't work this way. It never did. It never will.

I don't understand why you fanboys try to twist it into something else. I'm seriously doubting your willingness to see motor racing actually. Go watch the fricking Ferrari-Cup if you want to see a Ferrari winning every damn race ffs.

It is time that the FIA had a published set of unambiguous penalties for offences. It is outrageous that the stewards had three penalty options available to them for the incident at Spa. I am not a fan of Little Lewey, but I do think that a penalty system should not be open to interpretation.

if they insist on giving out penanlties left, right, and centre; maybe it could be 'public service' rather than meddling with the championship. Think of the great PR, Lewis could have picked up the litter in half of London by now.

I think at the very least they should either publish a justification of how they arrived at their decision or have the guts to stand up and answer questions regarding them.

exactly, most of these incidents we are discussing are simple racing incidents. ok i agree with drivers being punished for going off track and gaining an advantage but penalties for simple driver errors, i.e locking up your brakes. is just rediculous.

i think they need to realise that the circuits are not as wide as airport runways, there is always going to be contact, its part of the show and part of the excitement of watching a gp.

Racing on airport runways.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Although to be fair if the racing was this good in F1 I wouldn't care who won.