Agreed, even on the Alonso part... of course he can be a prat if things don't go his way, all the winners have that "capability".

I already said in the other thread, Lewis problems are all in his head, there is no denying his driving skills.

His talent is essentially to great to be wasted that way forever and secretely I hope that once his brain developes to match his skill, his personality will grow with it.

He looked pretty good under pressure in 2005 and 2006, and if any of the current wc contenders drove to Alonsos 2007 standard, they would already have sealed the Wc, so he cant of been too bad in 2007 could he. Less than perfect sure but still a very high standard that massa and Hamilton would kill for this year. I guess thats a credit to his high standard that such a good season is scrutinized negatively.


Hes been testing all season, it just takes time to create parts and find solutions to the problems that are pin pointed.

Racing Comments > Is there any doubt that Alonso is the best driver in F1?

Yes. (I doubt it, so my answer to your question is unchallengeable!)

People are quick to compare Alonso with Hamilton but tend to forget that Hamilton is only in his second year of F1.
Perhaps Alonso is the better overall package right now, but on raw speed, Hamilton's shown that he's quicker.

Alonso has been in F1 since 2001, made a low key entry at Minardi, got a year of testing at Renault to gain experience before joining the race team a year later.

Hamilton on the other hand joined F1 in the middle of a controversial year, paired with a double world champion got all the media attention aimed at him and his team and the pressure of being able to become F1's youngest champion.

I'd put my money on Hamilton on the long term, but that surely won't surprise you
Perhaps I'm a bit biased in that regard ;)

with the greatest respect,

Calling Fred's first season with Minardi 'low key' is very misleading imo. In fact he was most impressive to anyone who had their eyes open and he got snapped up by renault quickly. I think he might've been younger than Lewis was too (??) He was very quick and really quite mistake free. He certainly didn't need to take the second season to test, iirc, it was more a question of the two race seats already being contracted.

And describing Lewi's enty as somehow more difficult is even more misleading. Really what's harder? Getting a drive with the worst team on the grid, and knowing you have basically one season to show the bigger teams that you are something special otherwise you know your chance has come and gone; or stepping into one of the two best cars on the grid after roughly ten years of grooming by that very team? Lewis is obviously superb (apart from the odd melt down), but really crying about all the 'pressure ' on poor Lew to become the youngest wdc while minimizing Fred is kinda funny. We all know who actually is the youngest wdc, the guy who could withstand the pressure. His name is Alonso.

Records and achievements

* Youngest World Champion: 24 years, 59 days in 2005
* Youngest double World Champion: 25 years, 85 days in 2006
* Youngest driver and least number of races to score 500 points at the 2008 French Grand Prix

* Second youngest driver to start from pole position: 21 years, 237 days at the 2003 Malaysian Grand Prix (behind Sebastian Vettel: 21 years 74 days)

* Second youngest driver to score a podium finish: 21 years, 237 days at the 2003 Malaysian Grand Prix (behind Sebastian Vettel: 21 years 74 days)

* Second youngest winner: 22 years, 26 days at the 2003 Hungarian Grand Prix (behind Sebastian Vettel: 21 years 74 days)
* Second youngest driver to set fastest lap: 21 years, 321 days at the 2003 Canadian Grand Prix (behind Nico Rosberg: 20 years, 258 days)

* Second driver (after Michael Schumacher) to score 100 or more points for three consecutive seasons (in 2005, 2006 and 2007)

* Second highest number of podium positions in a season: 15 in 2005 (behind Michael Schumacher: 17 in 2002)

* Second highest number of consecutive podium positions: 15 in 2005-2006 (behind Michael Schumacher: 19 in 2001-2002)

* Third youngest driver to start from the front row of the grid: 21 years, 237 days at the 2003 Malaysian Grand Prix (behind Ricardo Rodríguez: 19 years, 208 days)

* Third highest points total in one season: 134 in 2006 (behind Michael Schumacher: 148 in 2004 and 144 in 2002)

* Third youngest to start a race at 19 years, 218 days at the 2001 Australian Grand Prix (behind Mike Thackwell: 19 years, 182 days and Ricardo Rodríguez: 19 years, 208 days)

* Winner of the first F1 GP held at night (2008 Singapore Grand Prix).

* Winner of the 800th Grand Prix (2008 Singapore Grand Prix).


Impressive sheet imo.

If you enter F1 at Minardi, expectations are low. Nobody expects you to put that car anywhere other than the last two grid places. With a McLaren however, you are expected to qualify near pole position and challenge for race wins. It isn't that hard to understand what I mean..

Alonso first fought for the championship in his 5th year driving F1 cars, with 4 years of competitive experience.
Now I'm not trying to say that Hamilton's mistake of last Sunday was any less stupid, but it sure counts having 5 years of experience under your belt versus none.

Alonso is now 4th on the all time points scored list. Behind Schumacher, Prost, Senna. And apparently he still hasnt proved himself...

Right behind Alonso is Coulthard 5th, Barrichello 6th, Raikkonen 7th - the four of them separated by 19 points. With more points being awarded and more races being run, drivers can climb up the all-time list fairly quickly.

Coulthard and Rubens have had double the number of races.

I´m spanish and i live near asturias, home of Fernando. I think he is very good driver, but past year, hamilton on same car, wins.

Alonso ever had a teammates Trulli, Villeneve,Piquet, but Hamilton is a Super Class. He is very young and actually still have learn, but now is leader WDC and only is his second year in F1.

When you consider that the amount of points for a win has increased over time, as has the number of races in a season, it becomes increasingly difficult to compare like-for-like. When a driver like Fangio is not represented near the top purely because he raced when there were less than ten races in a season and he got 8 points for a win, it makes the points list look shakey.

Of course Alonso has proved himself, but I wouldn't pay too much attention to the all-time points list

I don't know why some people automatically suppose that when one says that Alonso is an awesome pilot, he's belittling the effort of the Renault team.

I think Alonso is the best all-around driver in the grid, since a few years back. That doesn't mean that the Renault team is lousy at all, in fact it means that they're working extremely hard to produce the best material they can. Maybe it's because I'm an engineer myself, but many people don't understand how important is that the driver feeds the engineering team precise information about the car. Without precise information and feedback from the pilot, the engineering team is blind, and even if they're the best out there, there's not much they can do. On the other hand, if a pilot can pinpoint the source of the problems based on his extensive knowledge of the reactions of a race car, the engineers can start working on a solution in that moment.

I'm not gonna defend the 6 tenths argument, but it is extremely important to have a driver that can "feel" what happens in the car. And in that respect, Alonso is head and shoulders over the rest of the grid.

Sorry but to me that still reads like a spin. Ask any driver on the grid if they'd rather have started their F1 career in a Minardi or a McLaren & I guarantee you you'll get the same answer from all of them. Making it out to be some kind of a disadvantage to be in the McLaren just sounds like making excuses to me; so I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

The fact that Alonso was fighting for the championship in his 5th year (as you say) only speaks to his level of maturity early on because there he was only one year older than Lewis is now already with five years of experience under his belt. Now I'm in no way knocking Lewis, because, I really think he's well on his way to being every bit as good as Fred is now and I also think he'll win the title this year (thereby becoming the yougest wdc) and have thought so since the season opener. But right now, I'd still rate Fred as a more complete package. Lewis has time on his side as he should still be going strong when Fred is winding up. Only after they're both done can we truly compare them, and as we both know, even then it's still a bit of a guessing game.

now that is a great post

As you say he is a fine driver and they are a great team (obviously) and together they have dragged themselves forward after a difficult start. Props all around

Maybe a better way is to look at points/start*...

6) Alonso, 11) Raikkonen, 30) Coulthard, 39) Barrichello. Hamilton is 1st.

* Not counting the Indy 500 drivers, 1st and 2nd start retirements are considered a start.

A month ago you were saying we had seen the last of Fred's wins. Still bitter?

Your insight on Alons's strenghts and weakness, as usual, is crap. Both times, in Singapur and Fuji, he had the pressure of having to get a very comfortable lead before pitstops. Both times he delivered above expectations. In Singapur, twice (before and after the 2nd SC). Other years we saw him being able to cope with the pressure of a very-fast although inconsistent KR, or a very fast and very consistent MS. Even in 2007, with all the shenanigans surrounding the season, he was quite cool in the car and behaved pretty well once the traffic light when green.

If there's certainly a strength Fred has, is his driving under pressure and general consistency.

Really, pal, reading you analysis on Fred is embarrassing. I know you are on a mission, but at least you should double check your posts before you press "Submit"

You still suffer from 2006. You cant step over.
So in your opinion in 2005-2006 was Renault/Michelin package. Now in 2008 it is Renault who made a huge developing steps. Alonso has no contribution. OK no problem for me. But when MS cruised to victorys between 2000 and 2005, it was MS who developed the car, bla,bla...... I mean MS made everything: the car, the engine, everything. The team only constructed the paddocks. You are pathetic.

And this Ross Brown must be really stupid just waiting for Alonso. WTF Ross Brown thinking????

On the other way you say that Alonso is such a turd, because he played down the renault's 2005's strenghts? Do u have link, something, anythinng to prove this?

The thread creator ask if it is any doubt that Alonso is the best driver in F1? There are a lot of people who said 'YES'. OK they may be right, Alonso is not the best, but who is it?? Is it Hamilton or is it Vettel? WHO IS IT?

So for those who thinks that Alonso is not the best driver in formula 1, right now, please points the finger on the best driver right now. Idem for SeanValen and pls no Shumacher, no Senna, no history. We are leaving in the times of Alonsos, Hamiltons...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71383

Flavio Briatore hails the Renault as the best car in Japan, and Renault's Progress, read link.

Game, set and match.







I did answer, and I don't think any driver on the grid right now stands out the best, I think you have drivers who are close to each other talent wise, but no one wins outright.



Where did I say Alonso has no contribution? I had to menstion the the team contribution because only one other poster at the time of writing my post actually gave Renault any credit. Alonso's contribution is any more or less then other drivers? How do you research that, and how much has he given Renault, that's between renault and him, so far he's just a very good driver like some others on the grid, anything else and I like to hear it from a Pat Symond interview, not posters on a forum who think they know exactly what Alonso has contributed.

Overall, I'd say Alonso is probably the best currently. Hamilton will certainly challenge the top spot if he can get over making stupid mistakes, which (I think) he will.

Also, I have to add that Alonso's two wins here were somewhat "lucky"... meaning that he was in a position to take advantage of the circumstances presented - but he still has to take that advantage, which he did.

At the end of the 1996 season, Schumacher had 22 wins and two wc\'s. So its like saying, in 1996, that Schumacher does not stand out as the best and there are many drivers who are close to each other talent wise, no one wins out right. Whats the difference?

1. Check the fastest laps times. Look at Massa, Kimi times. Now regarding the fastest times, think were Hamilton was if he didnt blow up again.

Game, set and match.

2. I think you cant answer because you need to find proofs to put another driver in front of Alonso.

3. Were is the proof that Alonso is such a turd, because he played down the renault's 2005's strenghts?

You really are a pathetic hater.

I think that Alonso is showing this season, that indeed you do not win WDC's just by being in the best car, and that often the best car is the best car due to who is driving it.

Luck plays in on occasion, however the win at Fuji was a win he could have managed even had all the various shenanigans not gone one between other drivers.

Alonso is not really my cup of tea, but as a driver no one can really fault him.

'Best in F1' is and will always be a very subjective view, we all like drivers for various reason, and I do not chose a driver for being the best, he may be on occasion, but that will never be the decider.

Of the current field, I think that Alonso and Hamilton are likely the best drivers. That Hamilton could be the faster overall, and that Alonso would be the better racer, in that Alonso's racecraft over a season is better than Hamiltons.

Until this season I would have included Kimi, but really think that he has shown himself not to be quite there, and validating those who questioned him back in his McLaren days. Kimi is a very very fast driver when he wants to be, but the overall 'want' does not seem to be there enough. F1 is no longer a series where just showing up and racing is possible, and that seem to be what Kimi wants.

Apart from those 3 there really are no one near, not in the field and not up and coming. With the intriquing prospect if Vettel, who may be shining in a Newey car and be a Capelli, or be the real deal, who will dominate GP racing for many years with Alonso and Hamilton, seems that we could have some very very interesting racing the coming seasons, hope the rules will allow for some top racing.

Alonso this season have shown that Fisichella and Kovalainen are nothing special and any front running team should employ them only as a trusted number 2.

Yes, you are right, some fans never change. For instance you and me. You (and many others) still take it as a fact that LH and FA were tretated equally by their team last year and I still consider it rather dubious that FA had the same support as LH. Recent events concerning HK's performance this season have reinforced my conviction.

But that's just my opinion and many lines have already been written on that subject...

Regards.

Fernando is the best ATM, I think. He has 5 years more experience and 3 years in age over Lewis, and that's a decisive difference. Each has one weakness, FA completely overreacts to being beaten by his teammate, and LH completely overreacts to being overtaken. Like many deadly rivals, they have quite a lot in common.

Which (the italics part) frankly indicates that Lewis' "overreaction" to being beaten by a teammate will make Alonso@07 look like the nicest guy on the grid

Not that this is ever going to happen at McLaren - for a variety of reason, only one of them being Lewis' speed...

But yes, they have things in common, mostly those which sort the the winners from the also-rans. Obviously there are also vast differences between their characters and even more obviously Lewis isn't yet quite "there" as a complete package.

I just hope we'll get to see them both in winning cars for years to come...

Two circumstance assisted wins do not prove that Alonso is the best at anything.

He picked up Singapore when the Ferrrari team acted like the Keystone Kops and he got pitted before the pitlance closed.

Yesterday Hamilton and Massa were too busy shooting each other, and themselves, in the foot to bother racing at the front.

He is better than a journeyman but he isn't the best out there

All very well saying that after a great race of his, but over a season, he's had some shockers and average ones too.

I think Hamilton is faster but Alonso defiately the best on the grid over a championship, I'd agree. Trouble is he's such a dick.

I got a paddock ticket to USA GP 2001 in Indianapolis. The company I was working for is a F1 big sponsor.

I had the opportunity to have a conversation with Giancarlo Minardi. During many years his team was almost the F1 school or 1st level entry team. Many young and rookie drivers had begun there their 1st steps in F1. At that time he told me that Fernando was the greatest driver he had work with, and that Alonso was positively condemned to be WDC.

he's certainly up there with the best in my mind although its too hard to say who is best atm for various reasons. it shouldn't be forgotten though that lewis more than matched him last season and at times it was alonso that looked like the rookie driver

its just a shame he turned into a spoilt brat last season when things didn't go his way as i used to be a fan of his and with his recent quote saying he will help massa to the title he's really gone down in my estimation yet further :\

Then Flavio is totally wrong, there are at least 4 cars better than Alonso's, 2 Ferraris and 2 Maccas right now. And over the whole season 2 BMWs at the begining plus (during different stages and moments of the season) Toyotas, Red Bulls, Toro Rossos have been superior to Renault too.

IMO, REnault have been the 3rd best car since Hungary. In Japan, as you correctly stated, there were 4 cars better than the Renault:

Raikkonen's Ferrari - lost out at T1, sustained damage(apparently)
Massa's Ferrari - lost out at T1, and served a drive through
Hamilton's McLaren - had to pit because of shot tyres, and also served a drive through
Kovalainen's McLaren - DNF because of engine failure

BMW were struggling the whole weekend and were never on Renault's pace. Heck, even Piquet was faster than them at some point. Doesn't this suggest anything to you?

Fernando 07, well I can get over the Hungary pitstop, demanding No1 status and everything else except shopping the team to Max. Well you know how I feel about Max , so even though F1 drivers are supposed to be aggressive, self-centred and the rest of it, that was beyond the pale for me. But seeing Fernando yesterday, his driving and how likeable he is being interviewed, and taking his comments about the penalty as a joke, he just seems like a great F1 driver. I go up and down about him, tbh, depending which bit of him I focus on. Lewis if he were beaten by a teammate I can imagine would get even more aggressive than he is already , but I think he would at least be direct about it.

And for next year, Renault seem to have rebuilt their design team, yes let's hope they get their kers together and are up there. I would rather that than have FA go to Ferrari, so we'd have 4-5 contenders.

Then you clearly chose to only recall what you want. The test sessions before the last one (in which neither piquet or Alonso did) Alonso did 2 days out of the three. He's done that many atime since he rejoined.

Anyway, a very timely interview by Bob Bell I urge you all to read about the development of the R28 - given many are saying Renault started work on it well early in 2007 so it could not have been Alonso's contribution.

http://my.ing-renaultf1.com/en/blog/774-Bo...hole-team-.html

The key Q&A in that which indicates the contrary in terms of timing is this:

What have been the biggest development steps on the R28?
The biggest step was in Barcelona where we had entirely new bodywork: both wings and an engine cover almost entirely revised. Then we continued to bring developments to each race. Today none of the R28's bodywork is the same as it was at the start of the season.

Alonso is no engineer, but there's a lot to be said about driver feedback when the car is as bad as it was.

not lewis, we (mclaren) were racing ferrnando!!!!

"Fernando was fabulous, but he also had a car that allowed him to do it."
Flavio Briatore

good analysis, overall regarding alonso's main virtue is his mental strengh

under pressure?? guess how many drivers could currently outperform michael as he did in 2006...

and on the car, needless to congrat renault for its great effort. however alonso was asked on el larguero a couple of months ago about who's was responsible for renault small jump forward. his answer was clear and loud..."in terms of aerodynamics the engineers carry out the 100% of workload, in terms of suspension the job is mine in a 80% the remaining 20% belongs to those guys in the factory"

The most ridiculous thread title of the month, sure to incite complete mayhem.

For what it's worth I think...

Yes, there are huge doubts that Alonso is the best driver in F1.

This is all down to his personality.

He is an extremely gifted race winning driver and did well to win his two championships.

But it is impossible to look beyond 2007 at McLaren. Alonso knew Hamilton was extremely quick and had been brought up through the team's system when he signed on to drive.

Then, when Hamilton proved too much of a threat, Alonso reacted in a completely destructive way.

His paranoia, sulking and attempts to destroy McLaren were awful and IMO the reason no top team will touch him.

So, yes, he is a great driver. But his personality means he's fatally flawed and therefore not the best driver in Formula One.

down to his personality? I love the way he behaves, sincere, clear, honest and speak out loud, careless about what others think or comment on him,

extremely gifted race winning driver? ummmm....hang on...still bitter with kimi's germany puncture?
alonso himself has said hamilton hasn't been his hardest rival, it's all down to mclaren preference
alonso reacted like this since the very first race, when his wife and manager had to move out of mclaren garage to follow the race in renault's fellas mainly due to mechanics and engineers cheering up hamilton maneuvres against alonso


his paranoia? yours indeed!!! he didn't attempt to destroy anybody, he handed over such emails under risk of losing his superlicense. and of course,,,no top team would like to make of his services...it's pointless, actually brawn and honda's last statements are maneuvres to destroy his reputation


yes, he is a great driver, the best by facts and stats. and his personalitiy has hugely contributed to make his figure even bigger. actually he's the most worshipped spanish celebrity...

You've stated McLaren didn't give him an equal car. I don't believe that at all.

The rest are a list of excuses citing circumstances outside the car. If he was truly great he'd be able to put those aside and get on with the job in the cockpit. But he didn't. He got all rattled and acted like a child.
I've not doubt he's a huge Spanish celbrity and all power to him. That doesn't make him the best driver in F1 though.

Yes there is. His former team mate, who beat him as a rookie, still leads the WDC this year.

excuse me, I haven't stated anything, alonso did

I'd love to see how you'd manage such situation if you were in that garage, excuses...ahh ok, "we were racing fernando, not kimi" kind of excuse?

and the reason why he's the most respected celebrity in spain is not for his victories or career in general, but for his behaviour and personality, that's what I wanted to remark

I'd suggest you all to analyse Renault fastest laps and pace in the race. The fact is Alonso had car which was on Ferrari and McLaren pace while Kubica had car about 0.5s slower.

If Fernando and Robert pitted on the very same lap or Alonso pitted one lap later it would be Kubica winning the race because the team could react properly to Fernando's pit-stop.

Anyway, I must say YES, Alonso is the best guy out there, the most complete one. Only slighty behind him I rate Kubica. Then there are Lewis and Kimi who are extremelly fast but lack in other areas.

you are talking about this guy?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P0n43MTZdPI

I just cannot see Kimi in the top 5, he has been awful this year and frankly looked half asleep last year too..

I'm genuinely curious... according to you, Renault isn't a top team, right? That surely means Fred is the only driver in idontknowhowmanyyears that has won a WDC in a non top team, twice, and against THE top team and THE top driver.

Certainly, one of the all time greats, then!



Nope, it doesn't. Mathematics do however. 2xWDC and a metric ton of records help a lot.

Of course, YMMV. But partisanism aside, I can't understand how can people doubt who is the most complete package right now. Lewis is fast, supremely talented and explosive, but it's bloody obvious he's still raw (nothing that experience won't heal, if he allows it). Kimi has underperformed too many times and doesn't seem to care anymore. Massa... the least I say of him the best. The only one I can see close or even above in terms of pure talent is obviously Ham, but you can't say with a serious face that he's consistent, can cope with pressure, is praised for his work-ethic or developement/setup skills or analytical mind. And for the rest... I see a lot of bright promises, and lots of what-ifs and excuses, but not proven material right now (Kubica, Rosberg and Vettel will certainly be there, in time).

You mean the one whos averaged a major driving error every race since china 07? You suggest we all ignore this and forever focus on when he didnt make mistakes?
It doesnt work like that. You have to take everything into account, and it seems Hamilton is not very good under pressure. Infact very poor so until he fixes it he cant be number 1. The best driver on the grid would never drive as badly as he has this year.

What does personality have to do with driving skills? Im a kimi fan and i admit Alonso is best at the moment.

First of all, one can never know who the best driver in a racing series is, especially in F1 where the car matters more than anywhere else.

But I think most people think it's between Alonso and Hamilton now, and so do I. If they asked me which of them will win more races and WDCs and which will be remembered by history as the better driver, I'd say Hamilton.
But if they asked me which one is better now, I'd say Alonso. And I disagree with those who say LH is the greater driver because it's just his second year in F1. Yes, it's his second year and he's been incredibly impressive, but if the question is who is the best driver right now , then I don't think we should take his age or his experience into consideration.

Hamilton is more mistake-prone under pressure. He did the same in Fuji as he did last year in Brazil after the start. He just gets desperate when he's overtaken, and wants to fight back at any costs, instead of being patient and taking big points in the end. I'm sure he'll learn from his mistakes and will be a much calmer driver in the future, but now it's one of his biggest flaws. Just before this Fuji race he said in an interview that his focus is on the WDC now and will do everything to get it. If so, he should have settled down behind Kimi after the start.

Also, about people constantly repeating "Alonso got beaten by his rookie team mate last year". For God's sake, it was 109-109, and there were so many odd things contributing to the 110-109-109 result at the end of the WDC... Just imagine Alonso without a penalty in Hungary. He would have finished on the podium for sure and therefore winning the WDC. Would Alonso be a better driver then? Of course not, he would be just as good. Points can be lost and won in so various ways and sometimes it has nothing to do with driving abilities. And if you use common sense while looking at the 2007 season you can see that Alonso shouldn't be embarrassed with his on-track performance, and he was definetely not humiliated by his team mate as some of you suggest.

Also, we don't know how Hamilton would perform with a car which is not one of the top 2. I think he would be great, but we can't be sure until we've seen it. Alonso was really impressive in a Minardi, and had some awesome drives in a not so great Renault, be it 2003 or 2008, never losing his motivation. Alonso has learned how to drive a car whith a 3-year-old engine and he could show his talent in 2001 by being about 1.5 sec faster than his team mate. He often finished 17-18th out of 22 in qualifying which I thought was really really impressive.

But rather than arguing about who the best is, we should just watch their brilliance and enjoy. I'm on Alonso's side but I love watching Hamilton's agressive style and overtaking manouvres. I love watching him when he's driving in the rain. I may not be happy about it, because I don't like him, but it still impresses me big time.