I don't think anything else needs to be said. I think today's drive proved that you don't win 2 WDCs by accident. He is clearly the most complete driver, combining racecraft, consistency and speed.

I mean we're talking about Renault, the car that was struggling to make it into Q2 earlier in the year, just won a race on MERIT.

nelson was quick too

wonder if fred will like lewis more now:)

I think Alonso is overall perhaps the best driver on the grid. I'm not saying this because of Sunday's race as he had a very good car as Piquet showed. Alonso wasn't really racing the Mclarens and Kimi said he sustained damage, nevertheless it was a very good performance.

Obi

Alonso is very very good in fact he's almost as good as Hamilton !

The main problem I have with your post is, it ignores a whole organizations efforts to improve the Renault car over the season. Your post makes it sound as if Alonso has been driving the same car with no development during a season.

A f1 car during the season changes. Alonso can win races, he's one of the top drivers, but his main rivals races which had issues, first corner clashes in this race and the safety car race lottery of the previous race made his work more achievable along with a improved Renault car.

You were wrong, there's plenty to be said, I dont think any driver in f1 right now can claim to be the best, but I do think Alonso is up there and deserves respect for some talent, but people always get carried away when a driver is on a roll with results, and suddenly bring out the best arguements, jeez, how predictable.

Watch out when someone does a thread when Alonso has some bad gps again, he'll not be the best anymore , it's pathetic, the sport is a engineering one, your biggest mistake in your opening post is discrediting all of renault apart from alonso for the results he got recently.

With Hamilton finishing ahead of Alonso on points last year in the same team, I personally was hoping for Alonso to stay at mclaren and beat him there, now that would of been his pathway to prove to f1 fans he is the best, but he didnt' wanna do it, plus he lost out that year, just another case for not clear out contender for the best. Maybe he's on par with Alonso, or maybe Hamilton was more lucky, but then again maybe a driver needs to be lucky in this sport to be considered best, who knows, but to say there's no doubt is very silly statement.

I was looking forward to more Alonso vs Hamilton, ashame it lasted one year. Alonso didn't handle the pressure all well in 2007 either, he found out new stuff about him, things people easily forget now because he's won a gp again, some fans never change.

The way he pulled that huge gap in his second stint after telling the team to shortfuel him so he could come out in clear air was impressive.

Yeah and I guess his Renault team deserve no menstion of their hardwork to improve the car, that's the problem with Alonso, nobody knows how good that Renault is now, but it has improved, yet some are very eager to praise the driver first, and team 2nd.

A very good drive, but this thread is going nowhere fast.

the thing is why didt they improve at this rate last season but this season?
the catalyst is alonso

Alonso does help, because he's better then last seasons Renault drivers, but Renault also want to please Alonso, so are going all out for the car this year to ease his decision to stay.

Again, your another one neglecting the team's efforts. 2007 was Renault's first year on bridgestone tyres, they were horriable on them, they've been on michelins for years, it was a restart, had Alonso stayed at Renault, he still would of had a horriable season in 2007 if he wasn't at Mclaren. Renault remmeber are the only team apart from Ferrari that have won titles this decade, Mclaren-cheaters of 2007 came close, but Renault are a very good team, they only won the WCC 2 years ago.

he's unreal! i couldn't believe it this morning when he won (still can't), he never ceases to amaze me!! Looking forward to 2009 ;) watching him on the podium - so happy, congratulating the RK and KR and actually meaning it, unlike a certain someone who just puts on a show for the camera

I agree. Nick's a right twat.

We know it's still a lot slower than the Ferrari and McLaren. And over the season the BMW has been a much faster car.

Yes Kimi is a right twat.

I usually agree with you, Sean Valen, and I love to read your well thought out posts, that are often illumining and most detailled. Yet it seems you hold a grudge with Sr. Alonso, possibly because of the 2006 season.

In fact, it was Alonso who brought them their two WDCs and when he left Renault, the team went quickly nowhere, be it only the Bridgestones or the lack of adequate tyre feedback from the driver. With the much reputed and much maligned development skills of Alonso I can imagine that their 2007 would have looked slightly different if he would have remained on board. Now Fernando is back and, with 2009 beckoning, if they (the team and Fernando!) continue to develop their car at that rate, we might well see another WDC year for Alonso and Renault.

I can imagine that the other drivers (Hamilton, Massa, Raikkonen, Kubica) are well aware that a fourth force is in the making for 2009.

Over the season is not relevant, what's relvant is how the renault is now, Alonso didn't need a fast car to win Singapore, he got luck of the draw with safety car, how real good is that Renault at Japan, I don't think any fan knows that, but it was good enough to do decent lap times, anymore then that I wouldn't want to speculate on, you can't be accurately sure on things like that, Renault have nothing to lose, neither Alonso, they can attack, take risks, it's easier to win a one or 2 gps then mount a championship challenge, season 2007 was a much better reference point for Alonso last consistent campaign at the top, he driving under no real pressure or expectation to win, it's a bit more easier to look good in this respect.

Alonso is a great race driver, but it's no thanks to people like you...

Yeah Alonso would of really made a difference to Renault's 2007 car, the team had no experience of bridgestone tyres in 2007, Pat Symonds admitted it would take time.

No one here gives a rats ass about the reanult design team, they did awesome job on the renault opt suspension michelin package in 2005/2006, in 2005 they didn't need to push in all races, they had that good a car, so while Kimi was blowing up, Alonso could settle for points, knowing his renault would last, but no, you wouldn't think of giving credit to the renault team in proviiding a fast and consistent car for the points system. So according to you Alonso builds the cars, he's better then Senna and Schumacher, Rory Bryne, Pat Symonds, no one here has a brain tonight.

I don't have a grudge against Alonso, I have grudge against fans who are hipporcrits when realising their driver is benefiting from a awful lot of work from the engineering team, Alonso is such a turd, he played down the renault's 2005's strenghts, making it seem the car was slower then it seemed, infact this angered Pat Symonds who works endlessy to improve the car with his people, he released a statement shortely after Alonso's lousy remarks, to point out the reanult was clearly the best car in 2005, because Alonso wanted to make himself look better then the team, and it's the same fans he's fooled into thinking that. He's a very good driver, but no more then that. It's because some people around here forget things like this, I don't, I accumulate f1 knowlege and quotes over time, because when it comes to posting, some people just get lazy and never go into detail.

He's a very good driver, but I think the renault team remain the most seriously underatted team in the paddock, Renault and Ferrari have been the best teams this decade.

renault aborted 2007 devlopment really early to work on 2008, and now the car has finaly come good. at the start and to the middle of season alonso was doing no better than fisi/heiki was. so its down alot to the work of the renault guys and gals, alonso did drive brilliantly tho.

its either that, or hes taken kimi's form over a race distance and applied it to the season

I'm glad someone came in with some truth.

it certainly shows how good the McLaren drivers wer elast year, they stand head and shoulders above the rest right now.

Hey , you forgot to mention MS .....

its not just gp drivers who make mistakes

Kimi suffered damage, so?? he was challenging Kubica but couldnt figure out how to get past him. Massa went for a brave risky move and got by Webber.



So Kubica, Massa, Lewis, Raikonnen, Vettel are as good as any other driver on grid; they drive such fine cars. But they did drive brilliantly tho.

Im sure with Hekki they couldnt get the results that they have right now. And without the the efforts of the team, im sure Alonso couldnt have won. Mutual.

No matter what you think of his personality, I dont think many people can seriously doubt his abilities in a race car. The best? Dont know about that, but he'd definitely be a candidate.

And I'm really not trying to take anything away from his win cuz he drove great, and most importantly, he delivered, but its obvious he couldn't have done it without having a great car. Its really come alive the past two races, and while not a top car, I'd go as far as to say its definitely the 3rd best(for the past two races at least). Which is a huge improvement from what it was at the beginning of the year.

Great job by him, though.

BUZZ, you are wrong, check your facts mate. You have a very selective memory.

Hamilton did not finish ahead specifically on points last year. It was a draw. 109-109.

There is not a single cloud of doubt in my mind that Alonso is the best F1 driver comprehensively since at least 3-4 years ago. It is my humble opinion and you do not have to share it.

Hmm...

An intricate question but to make a long and boring answer short...

No.

this is BS all the way, hamilton had the best mclaren staff, and he didn't score more points than Alonso who was figthing against his not so "same" car and reluctant biased staff who were more to neutralise him than pushing him as the same rocket engine that hamilton benefits!

I am an admirer of Alonso. In fact, I've never seen his talents come to the fore so much more than driving in a car this year that was no where near championship material. I have no doubts he is the best all-round driver on the grid right now.

But Renault's dip after Alonso left has got nothing to do with him. Renault's problems started in late 2006 when they discovered that their wind tunnel was feeding them inaccurate information. They sorted out the problem, but with the difference in performance between teams only about a second, it meant that Renault had a mountain to climb in 2007 to catch up with the top teams.

Their rate of development this year, according to Pat Symonds, is the best among all the teams, "save perhaps McLaren".

Without taking anything away from Alonso, whom Symonds says is one of the best drivers he has worked with to provide accurate information, Sean has a point in saying that Renault's improvements cannot deny the team's role. It is a combination of many people, and the driver is part of the team to make that happen.

Alonso may be a team player in a class of his own when it comes to helping a team put a better car on track, but if Renault did not have the talents in the engineering and design departments, the team will be far worst than last year -- even with the double champion on their side. You could also say that the environment the management provides and even the people who keeps the factory tidy all have a part to play.

"Lewis, you are racing Fernando not Kimi."

I guess they were equally supported.

I think it's between Alonso and Hamilton with Kimi,Massa(on current form) and Kubica not too far behind.It's easy to forget that Hamilton is just into his 2nd yr.

umm
hamilton got the DC/montoya crew, alonso the mika/kimi crew

personaly i feel lewis maybe a touch faster than alonso, going off lastyear and also testing, before the rot had set in, they where very close speedwise.

alonso is a more rounded package, hes not standout the best in any area, apart from perhaps really consistent fast stints, thats something thats really important in F1, less so in other series(or u need additional skills tobe really fast in a stint, sportscars you haveto deal with lots of traffic...)

lewis is probably better at short bursts of speed, overtaking (well, if u discount dubious FIA penalties) , and hes more interesting to watch drive as he makes the car move around, and theres that expectation that somethings gonna happen...

alonso drove a great couple of races, hes on form. earlier in the year he had some spazy moments, like at hockienhiem and driving into nick at monaco.

also if you get up front then you just end up running a better pace, look at piquet, when hes up front he looks good.

alonso did all thats required and abit more and got the job done

Perhaps you should rerun the 07 ring race and see if you still think alonso isnt the overtaker of the two.

Alonso is, i think, currently the best driver by a mile on the grid. Wonder if Ferrari have regrets in extending kimis contract.

For me, Fred is clearly the class of the current field. he can get the best out of a given car, he can reallymake a difference in development, he can 'read' a race and think on his feet. He can put his heade down and crank out those Shumacheresc laps when required. He's just the complete package. I think lewis will get there, although he's still just a bit young and impetuous. Neither of the Ferrari guys strikes me as particularly complete and I'd take Fred, Lewis or Robert K over either of them on current form.

that was a good move
but theres monza 07 and 08, malasia 07 with massa...

ferrari might, depends how kimi does next year... could be fred dodged a bullet and renault are fast and ferrari slow next year....

does he really want a ferrari because its a ferrari, or because its fast and the fia wont pester him while hes there?

No doubt in my mind, he's the best currently. I think Hamilton has the potential to at least match him, but to do so he has to get a grip on himself and cut out the stupidity such as that first corner. So no doubt for now: Alonso's the number 1.

So you say its easier to look good in a poor car that handles crap, than the best car? Never heard that one before. Alonso had a very consistent 2007 and came within 1 point of the wc. Infact he only had 1 race where he didnt score points.

Everyone talks about Schumacher great 1996 season when he won 3 races, but two of those races relied on a lot of luck also. Most victories involve some luck anyway.

Renault team deserve as much mention as the Ferrari team do in the Schumacher days.)

Some excellent drives recently and he's probably the best at the moment. But we tend to forget some less stellar overdriving performances like at Hockenheim.

Hmm i think youl be hard to find people who wont say shumi was the only one who could great things with that dog of a car. In only his 3rd race hed put the f310 in 2nd place on the grid (argentina) and his spain win is seen by many as his greatest race ever, won on merit, not luck.

I think Alonso is a more complete driver than Räikkönen, and less incident-prone than Hamilton, yes.

He did great things in the car but people ignore that the previous season that team had won a race and was a consistent podium team.

Respect (tough I expected no less from you ).

Ironically Lewis should have drive the race precisely like Alonso did yesterday: bide his time in the first stint behind KR, then put the hammer down in the 2nd stint and collect an relatively easy win, putting him some 9 to 12 points clear of Massa. From the comments I take it that he was fueled heavier than Kimi, it could all have been so easy...

he's an awesome driver, no doubt
the best? hard to say. i'd say the best is pretty hard to say for anybody. he still has a lot to prove
yesterday he's had a great race, but he also had very poor performances this year.....partly due to the car, partly to the driver (as yesterday also)

No doubt he had quite a few poor showings this year. But (touch wood) as soon as he's gotten a car to fight near the front, the errors vanished and he's again performing like 2005 and 2006.

Maybe he could have collected a few more small points in the first half of the season, but deep down I think he doesn't care too much for 8th to 6th places and personally I can't blame him.

You think he would have won without the FM/LH problems?

Alonso is good, of that there is no doubt. Undoubtedly the best? Impossible to say - there are probably half a dozen drivers all at the top level, of which Alonso is one.

Doug

You mean mistakes, not problems. If you dont make mistakes and your opponents do, you win on merit.


There are half a dozen drivers with 2 wcs , 21 wins, and 4th all time points totals? Can you list them all?

Yup, I think he could well have had the pace and fuel load to take the win, even with losing a place to Kimi at the start.

Not that I want to derail this into a thread about Hamilton's faults (and apologies for the psychological mumbo jumbo I'm about to spout), but ...

Every driver makes mistakes. Alonso had a couple of amazing flawless years in '05 and '06 but we've seen even he makes mistakes last year and in the early parts of this. But Hamilton has more than many, and he seems to have a particular problem with overdriving when he seems to think he has something to prove (as an aside: seeming to think he has something to prove I think also explains a lot of the unfortunate crap the guy spouts as well).

At the end of last season, the ver beggining of this and now the end of this season, his driving has been hugely costly. He seems unable to adjust his driving to me. At the end of last season and the end of this, trying to be conservative seems to have made him more reckless. At the start of this season, trying to be too quick seems to have made him too slow (as well as accident prone).

When he relaxes and drives naturally, he's supreme. When he thinks about it too much, he's dreadful. I think McLaren have made a big mistake in going down the "driving for points" line with Hamilton. It's the best tactic, but just doesn't work for Lewis. Instead I think they ought to try and get him in a "1 race at a time, ignore the championship" frame of mind. It's not the optimum way to go, but you've got to work with what you've got and with Hamilton's apparent psychological flaws it's the best ay to go IMO.

To get back on to the topic, the contrast with Alonso on this score couldn't be greater. Alonso has the supreme confidence (some would say arrogance) of all the best F1 drivers. He also has, IMO, a quite impressive persecution complex that rears it's head when things aren't going his way. Now I don't find that terribly attractive (and you may well disagree with me that it's there) but what can't be denied is that he's a guy who is absolutely certain, whatever is happening around him, that he is the best and just does not care what other people think. Which makes him so much more psychologically strong than Hamilton who I think does think that he is the best but seems almost desperate for other people to think it too.

That psychological strength, combined with his speed and dedication to immerse himself in all aspects of the team (development, strategy etc - this year's radio chatter from him has been great to hear), IMO make him the best driver in F1 today.

As yet another aside to this ramble: it's been fun to see such deserving winners, IMO, in the races won by people not driving red or silver cars this year. And Alonso was certainly deserving of both his wins this year.

What I find incredible is how many idiots are jumping on the bandwagon after his 2 Renault wins. Could you not see the talent before then? 2 WDCs and nearly a 3rd in a different car??

Everyone in F1 has pace, what Alonso has is application and temperament that translate into a winning and race leading mentality. Ever noticed how he initiates many radio conversations? Also the way he talks after a race - very analytical and always interesting to listen to - much like Senna was.

Listen to him last race, on the radio in 1st and 2nd stints, finding out as much as possible. In Spa, chatting to his team about the impending rain which we know he profitted from later.

Compare this with Seabass' use of the radio - always whinging and complaining. BIG difference.

Of course he's the best, like I said before - he is the Schumacher of the grid - every team wants him. No wonder Ross Brawn is pulling out all the stops...

Alonso has an ability to put in consistently fast laps that no one else does in F1 as far as I can see. Hamilton can put in quicker laps, and prove quicker overall in my opinion, but Alonso's metronomic consistency has always been impressive. The problem is he cannot do this when really under pressure as we saw last year - when forced to push he too makes mistakes and overdrives. Even this year in Canada Alonso dropped it when he tried to push. So he's quick consistent and intelligent. But the psychological issues we've seen all too often prevent me from thinking of him as the best driver in F1.


As for the Renault, it's remarkable the transformation that car has undergone since Flavio publicly complained about the Ferrari engine advantage. Surely it can't have been a coincidence that one minute Alonso and Flav are whining, the next the car is the third best on the grid and not far off the leaders? Given Piquet's stupendous drive yesterday, the car is clearly fast these days. Yet I can't recall Alonso doing any testing that might have led to this massive improvement.

Memories are fickle in the sport, especially against Alonso. Even at the end of 2006 when he won 2 wcs, many still refused to accept him as the best, instead claiming Kimi with no wcs was better, and they are doing it again by offensively grouping Alonso with guys like Rosberg, Vettel, Rubica. I wonder how many more races and wcs he needs to win to prove himself?