I couldn't resist posting this when I read Massa's recollection of the incident at turn 10 with Lewis in Autosport's report:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71364

Massa is apparently quoted as saying:
Asked whether he had crashed into Hamilton deliberately, Massa replied: "For sure not, I had two wheels on the gravel. I could not stop the car and I was on the gravel because he pushed me into the gravel."

Picture of the "incident":
[img]http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2008jpn4/image/XPB_0EDS8W10U4FAF40BUOQGX-2[/img]
(see also http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/117090)

From a formal point of view Massa is right; he indeed had "two wheels on the gravel", but he could also have added that the two remaining wheels were not on the track either...

I'm not saying Felipe's collision with Lewis was deliberate, but it was quite... hum... over optimistic

Go on like this guys, and Kubica will be world champion

Massa said he had two wheels in the gravel, and the pic shows him having two wheels in the gravel.

Not much to discuss about, I am afraid.

what gravel?

to be fair on massa its quite a late apex, but on the other hand it was a silly attempt and he didnt need to go rally crossing... and there really was room to brake...

The more I look at it, the more I'm wondering why Hamilton didn't open up and let Massa pass, as JV did more or less with Schuey in Jerez.

I'm sure Alonso would have done it, or any other 'clever' driver. Okay, in a split second no driver can consciously think about his choices, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have minded to be taken out, if this had meant that Massa's race had been finished as well. 7 point-lead conserved, with one race less to go...

Well, anyway...

I think we can ascribe to the: Massa should have just lifted off, as we've been forced to swallow following Lewis' penalty at Spa.

Get a grip Felipe, there's no way you could have regained the position on the corner so why put yourself at risk of hitting a car?

probably blind spot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV_bjZWA6B4

Maybe a stupid question, but what's the point of kerbs on a racetrack anyway?

Kerbs are part of the circuit, actually...

Agree, its quite funny to hear, seems strange, Lewis never hit anyone in SPA on the chicane cut but got a worse penalty.

I would also like to see earlier in the move as I'm wondering how Massa could have got in such a position as Lewis doesn't seem to be doing any pushing there so must have happened way earlier.

Lewis got the same penalty.. 25 second is equal to a drive through

Only in sofar as the run-off areas etc are part of the circuit.

The race track is the area between the white lines.

The kerbs are there to decide in a BB if they are part or not of the track.

If you are a LH fan FM is out of the track. If you are a FM fan he is still on the track.

Interesting?

it may seem a silly question but it isnt, what is the point in them? i can see the point of them at chicanes but in general, ive never seen a good reason to need them.

It's supposed to a near equivalent, but it really isnt.

From a drive thru there is at least a chance of making up some of the time and/or regaining positions which you can't do with a 25 second penalty.

It's to stop them ruining the grass at the corners.

They help drivers staying on the track/away from walls I think as they are under an angle

makes sense

i'd suggest the idea is that the dirt isn't dragged onto the track by drivers who get bumped across by the large buffer of solid air between them and their competitors (referring to the OPs pic)

often does the opposite, sending them into a spin, into the wall, nelson, singapore?

What you call often.. every car rides them 61 times in singapore, it goes wrong 1 time ;)

I've lost respect for both Hamilton and Massa but I'll admit I'm still wanting one of them to win but Massa is probably kicking himself after this since Hamilton would've still had to serve his DT penalty Massa had the chance to gain even more points on Hamilton but this blunder cost Massa as well.

Especially as hamilton wouldn't be on the pace during his first stint, suffering from his flat-spotted tire.

true, guess nelson just pushed his luck

25 seconds is there to be the equivalent of a 10 second stop/go.


also what gravel?

BS. Massa was totally at fault here, Lewis was on the driving line and he nearly cut the track and hit him. He was in no way pushed onto the grass, he went there all by him self. Not that it makes the move deliberate, that comment from Lewis was stupid too.

when massa touches bourdais it's because he turned in "like he was alone on track"
i see the same thing here. massa was 2 wheel on grass an 2 on kerbs. clumsy? yeah..but it's not like he had a mile of free track available.
btw, i think they were both racing incidents, no penalties should be around

Slightly off topic, but is it possible that this move of Massa in some way might even have helped Hamilton?
Hamilton most likely would have had to pit early anyway as driving fast with those flat-spotted front tires wouldn't have been possible for him.
Now, he lost 15 seconds in the accident, but massa lost 23 seconds during his drive-through. So if hamilton would hava had to pit quite early anyway, he gained 8 seconds on massa by the incident

What about Lewis then? and also the Spa penalty?

but the problem is lewis overtook in the next corner after cutting that one with a lot of meters from the apex
he wasn't given a penalty for cutting the corner but for taking advantage from it. you know, like massa with rosberg in monza

Well, you don't think Massa should have got a penalty, but Lewis yes, but lets look a the two incidents


Lewis, gets pushed wide by Kimi, cuts chicanes, gives place back and then retakes it, you say PENALTY

Massa, cuts chicane, drives into side of the car in front, spins him around and is able to carry on, in your opinion, this is NO PENALTY.



I'd say Massa's was far worse incident, but you don't think so?



Or Lewis in the first corner, never hit anybody, but you think that is worth a penalty?

massa did tot hamilton what montoya has done to rubens in indy 2003...a lot of people argued it was a 50:50 call even back then.
lewis was SMART in spa (he usually is a smart guy) and got a great exit by cutting the track. hence the penalty. really, he was smart to think of it, kind of stupid to try iit because he would have got by kimi rather sooner than later.
don't start with "he gave the place back". he wouldn't have been there to attack in la source withour cutting.

massa has shown what WOULD have happened had hamilton not decided to cut the track in spa. they would have touched. i say it was racing incident

I also say it was racing incident at the start.it doesn't matter if they touched or not, kimi was forced to take evasive action, he was pushed wide. but still, penalty for this one a little too harsh.

if you want it in grayscale maybe lewis's penalty in fuji was more "debatable" than massa's. but i would have handed none in this race.
the stewards chose to give a penalty for each of them. it's another way of refreeing...not worse, but just different from my opinon

The lap in which Massa served his drive through he was 1:38 against 1:20 to 1:21 for most other laps so it cost him a mere 18 seconds. That would have left Hamilton second in Spa though sadly Bourdais was always on a hiding to nothing for hitting a red.

To be fair had Massa even seen a replay of it when he said that? Felipe must have watched the race afterward and thought he was born under the luckiest star on Earth, even if he felt a bit of a twat for his post race comments.

Massa should have recognized he had lost the position and maybe he would be 1 point behind Ham or something like that... but anyway, there is no rule which indicates how close should the car behind be to force the leading car to leave room (or at least I don't know it)

All crap. Massa blew the entry on the right-hander and Hamilton took advantage of it. Hamilton didn't "push" Massa anywhere - Massa did it to himself.

What was Hamilton supposed to do? "Sorry, I see you made a bit of a mistake there, so I'll just stay behind until you get it together"...

:\

Yeah.

It's ok to have two wheels off track, but it's not ok to accelerate to other driver's side. Massa was on a inferior line and he should have watched out what Lewis does in front of him. Massa missed the first corner so it was really desperate to try regain it already in the second one.

It's just bullshit on Massa's part.
Lewis was in the same position at Spa and went off the track to avoid collision. Massa could have done the same, but he didn't resist the opportunity ahead of him.
That was the most delibirate collision I've seen in a decade or more.


Edit: not to mention the lenghts we saw Massa take to avoid collisions at Monza when fighting for position this year.

:yawn:

"I had two wheels in the gravel..."

You went there by yourself Felipe.
I'm impressed that he managed to tell a lie saying only the truth...

what massa meant by saying he had two wheels on the gravel is that it was impossible for him to brake the car at that point, not that he wasn't cutting the track, so it is irrelevant to say that the others wheels are outside the white lines, me thinks.

btw what is this 4 tyres off tarmac rule? Is it for real? Schumi did it in China overtaking Fisi and no problem - just brilliance!

Massa is a hypocrite.
Only some few weeks ago he was moaning after Raikkonen pushed him to the inside when overtaking him at Spa. Now Massa bumps Hamilton over to face oncomming traffic and yet he stil moans and cries like there was nothing he could do to avoid it.
I can't stand what Massa did nor how he reacts upon it now. Even though I'm brazilian, he has absolutely no support from me.

Hipocrat? Nope! Its a WAR, the gloves are off!! (even though Felipe wont admit it)

Take that Hammy! Next time you try to pass a certain Ferrari, be sure to do it cleanly, otherwise

umm it was clean

"for sure you need to make a big gap instantly so i cant blunder/torpedo into you"

Massa put himself in that position, he drove off the track attempting to regain what he'd lost in the previous corner.

yes, he did. massa was the only guy that failed in this situation and thats why he was punished. he didnt go off because of lewis either, he went wide because the image of lewis in the rearview mirrors made him too nervous and he had enough room to lift and get his car behind lewis.

i was merely trying to explain why he said what he said.

i think a drive through affects 2 laps, not just one

For all the doubters, Hamilton never forced Massa to go anywhere. Take a look at the pictures in this post.

http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php...103#post3355103

Massa overshot the corner, then desperately tried to get back while he already lost.
Then he decided to torpedo Hamilton.

And ofcourse after the race you tell it's not your fault...

One thing's for sure, Massa did a good job. Totally destroyed any chance of a comeback by Hamilton - wrecked his rival's aerodynamic performance. The penalty really didn't fit the crime in this instance but then that's not overly surprising given how the season has panned out. I wonder what would happen if the positions are reversed in China?