...Senna!

Yes, Nelsinho has scored 18 points so far for Renault, agaisnt Ayrton's 13 for Toleman in 84.

Of course, AS got three podiums, and those were other times (including the scoring system, today Ayrton would have 24 points instead of 13).

Actually, in the new scoring system the best Brazilian newcomer was Cristiano "da man" da Matta, who got 10 points for Toyota.

In terms of scoring %, the best Brazilian rookie ever was Emerson Fittipaldi, who scored 22% of the possible 54 points (as he only took part in 5 GPs in that 1970 season). Emmo is still the only Brazilian to win a race in the debut season.

As for Nelsinho, it doesnt matter if he maintain his Fuji form, it seems that no matter what he does in the next GPs his future with Renault is already decided. But he can go one and say he scored more in his 1st season than Senna!

Points dont tell the whole story. Back in the day they didn't have safety cars that allow back of the grid drivers to luck into a 2nd place they dont deserve.

If you've watched the season, Piquet's job at Renault should definitely be in question. Especially with guys like Di Grassi and Grosjean waiting in the wings.

Interesting enough stat, though I'm not sure it really means much.

I don't buy that entirely. Once Nelson had jumped Massa after the safety car, he pretty much pulled away from everyone bar Hamilton. Similarly, in fact, to how Alonso did once he hit the front at Singapore and Fuji. There's something quite strange about the current F1 cars. :\

Actually, Nelsinho was posting much faster laps than Raikkonen at the end of the Japanese GP, but then he seemed to "give-up"? or was it the team who told him to bring the car home?

Didn't he make a mistake and lose a lot of ground? After that, either the car broke, or he was told to take it easy lest he hit anything more solid, probably.

For what it's worth, I could understand Renault ditching Nelson if they had a clearly fast-enough rookie waiting behind him. But Grosjean will be far more erratic than Piquet was, I think we've seen enough of Di Grassi in F3 and last year in GP2 to know that he's not the next Hamilton or Kubica.

He went off and lost around 6 seconds on one lap

Yes, he did alright in that last stint, but Massa was struggling at that point, too.

It doesn't change the fact that he would have been absolutely NOWHERE had he not gotten lucky with the perfectly timed SC for his strategy. Before that, he was running well out of the points, and didn't make a single pass in the whole race, bar Nakajima, but only because he ran off the track.

I think that's fair: Grosjean has been all over the shop this year and is clearly not ready yet, while di Grassi was owned in a dual championship winning car by Glock last year and then steady but uninterested this year.

Grosjean was more erratic than Piquet was in 2006, but it was Grosjean's first season, so I think its more fair to compare it to Piquet's rookie season in 2005. And in that case, I think Grosjean looks to have more potential. Not just because he placed higher in the final standings, but if you watched the races, Grosjean shows massive potential. He had some awful luck, too, including robbing him of wins in Barcelona and Germany, and a mechanical failure while leading the race(I forget where off the top of my head). But I think he had some real impressive drives. I also dont think the ART team got the car to work like the likes of Racing Engineering, Campos and iSport, going by Grosjean's teammate's performances.

I also think Di Grassi shows just as much potential as Piquet did. He was arguably the star of last season, and would have more than likely won the title had he not missed the first 6 races. And he was a convincing runner-up in 2007, as well.

Overall, I think its more of a case of Piquet not living up to his potential, while Grosjean and Di Grassi may well do just that. Its never a guarantee, but its hard to go wrong with at least giving them the chance at this point.

Its scary how Piquets season continues to mimic Kovaleinens 07 at Renault. I think what we are seeing is a continual improvement of driver and car so naturally the results will follow. Renault are much stronger now than they have been since 06 though.

Kovalainen showed definite signs of improvement over the season and was generally able to match and beat his teammate on many occasions(even if it was a late-model Fisi). But Piquet seems to be quite off it on most occasions, and hasn't even finished half of the races he's competed in, due to crashing out of all of them.

I'd say his season has more mimicked Michael Andretti's. Shows hints of promise here and there(but never flashes of brilliance), but overall fairly slow and extremely erratic.

Yeah but di Grassi's done two years of risk management, that might actually work in F1. Strangely I think he'd be a better #2 at a place like Ferrari/McLaren than a Renault. He's pretty much lock in your constructor's title.

....Ricardo Rosset

Leaving Di Grassi aside, I think it is possible that Grosjean has the potential to be world champion. But considering his erratic GP2 season, isn't that even more of a reason to give Nelson another year? Putting Grosjean in next year's Renault could destroy his confidence and wreck his reputation, especially placed alongside a driver who nearly everyone considers to be the best in the world.

Either they kick out Piquet and take up Di Grassi, who is then replaced by Grosjean; or they allow Piquet, a dual runner-up in GP2 and widely touted as a major talent, another year to get it together. If he shows no improvement, sign Grosjean. If neither Piquet nor Grosjean show improvement, and you have a good car, there are many drivers who'll be out of contract for 2010. Without a good car Renault'll lose Alonso and they're screwed either way.

Michael's drive from 21st to 3rd in his last race for the team could be defined as brilliance, IMO. He was not a young man when he entered a new discipline of racing, and had the misfortune to be compared at Mclaren against arguably the greatest drivers of their respective generations.

Added to Andretti's Hamilton-like tendency to feel it as a personal affront not to be leading a race, and go to self-destructive lengths to obtain it, it's perhaps no surprise that Michael was not a roaring success. But he had the talent, IMO.

Nice way to spin the situation around. In the real world, his season is a major disappointment.

Well first off, Piquet wasn't a dual runner-up in GP2. In 2005, he finished 8th in the standings, and was runner-up in 2006.

But yea, I see what you're saying. I just think its a chance worth taking. There's not many really good drivers in F1 who didn't have impressive rookie seasons. The potential is usually fairly obvious, and they dont have to have astonishing rookie seasons like Lewis to be considered for another season. Its just that Piquet really hasn't impressed me at all. I know he's not a bad driver, but the potential he shows every once in a brief while never seems to build or take root. He's not showing a noticeable improvement. I mean, he's still struggling to get out of Q3 on occasion. And lets not forget that he spent a whole year testing before he was given a race seat!

I also dont think Grosjean will have the kind of pressure that Piquet has had this year. Piquet had a lot of hype to live up to given his name and his comments about how he could have done what Lewis did at Mclaren. Grosjean wont be expected to be matching or beating Alonso and just being near him on more than one or two occasions in the year will be more than Piquet has accomplished, which shouldn't be hard.

Of course, Grosjean will likely spend another year in GP2 anyway, and Di Grassi is the guy who is most likely lined up for the seat, so all that is just hypothetical. But same thing goes for Di Grassi. He's had a few impressive tests in the Renault, and they really cant do much worse than Piquet at the moment. So I say give him his chance. I think its a bigger risk to keep Piquet onboard and hope he improves.

Piquet's 05 season was waaaay more consistent than Grosjean's, but he had the misfortune to be at a team with no experience and at war with itself: just pushing Hitech out the door allowed the team to cool down suffiently for Piquet to take an impressive win in Spa.

Grosjean's an odd one: he has massive potential that you can glimpse from time to time, but his season was a bit of a disaster and his head has been so wrecked for most of the year that even Renault have realised there is no point rushing him forward, as a move into F1 now would destroy him. He'll probably be fine next year, although Kobayashi already looks a handful: luckily he's unlikely to engage in the mental warfare certain others enjoy specialising in.

Given that, and the uncertainty over Alonso, they might as well hold Piquet for a further year: he always seems to bloom in his second season in a series anyway, and it's a shorter improvement span than to get di Grassi all the way up to speed.

Heh, yeah, that is of course completely true.



But if they hire Di Grassi, what can Renault do for 2010? Unless you assume Alonso is bound to leave after next year (on the basis of Renault's upturn, KERS, and the apparent disintegration of Ferrari, that shouldn't be a given), Renault will have to make the choice of whether to promote the greater talent, Grosjean, or dump him. That decision will be far easier after two years of Piquet-mediocrity, than a credible if unspectacular year of Lucas. And if Grosjean doesn't mature for 2010, Renault can put him Di Grassi in then anyway. Expediency ought to lead Renault to retain both drivers for 2009, although I can't see them keeping him beyond that.

9th to 3rd. And in a race where Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Berger and Herbert all retired in front of him. It was a good result for him, nonetheless, but brilliant? Thats stretching it.

Sure, he had his problems, and may have done better had he dedicated himself more, but the comparison still stands that a driver with a lot of potential and hype had a pretty ridiculously lack-luster season. Both were erratic, and despite that they were both up against great drivers, could rarely even get near them.

I meant after his early race collision (?) that sent him down the order, back to 21st. It was an impressive drive, although not up there with some of his Indycar exploits. It was inevitably going to be reduced to a kind of USA vs. Europe contest, especially with Nigel going the other way, but that shouldn't affect one's analysis of Andretti, who to be honest needed a cooler head, and perhaps a little more guidance from the team. Something that stood out, apparently, from Mansell's adjustment to Indycars in 1993, was the enormous amount of testing, engineering help, and analysis of other Indycar driving styles and techniques, which Andretti categorically did not receive.

Is it possible, that the criticism F1 fans often reserve for Andretti arises out of some need for a propaganda achievement against any threats or usurpations? Reading some of Bernie's comments on CART, around the time that Mansell was running competitively there, they seem ridiculous and pathetic enough to have that motive. Compare that to non-partisan (except for bikes) Murray Walker, who made a number of guest commentaries and appearances at Indycar races.

Piquet's 2005 season was a bit more consistent, but the potential wasn't as obvious if you ask me.

And what do you mean mean by Kobayashi looking to be a handful? Just by his recent testing? All of the top GP2 drivers have not been taking part and are not going to be competing in the Asia series, so I wouldn't go thinking that he's suddenly become the no.1 favorite for the main series next year. He had a pretty lack-luster 2008. We'll see, though.

I dont think there was an any accident that dropped him to the back. There was an incident at the first corner, but I'm fairly certain he got through it alright.

And trust me, I have no agenda in criticizing Andretti. I am American after all. You could be right about others that do so, though. Not sure. I wasn't watching F1 at the time, but I've since seen most of the races from back then and done my history research.

He may have scored more points than Senna, but Alonso has destroyed Piquet and almost has as many points as Kovy in a much superior car, while Senna beat Cecotto handily. That's not to say Cecotto is even in the same realm as Alonso though. Senna also scored points in all the races he finished in '84 in a backmarker, while Piquet has been fairly disappointing throughout the year in what could be seen as the third or forth fastest car on the grid (maybe that's just in comparison to Alonso).

Alonso was one point off being a 3 time world champion, Cecotto was the definition of a journeyman driver: that's hardly comparing like for like. Even Kovalainen, who is a much better all round driver than Piquet, struggled from time to time with Fisichella, who is no Alonso. F1 is hard, which is why Hamilton's rookie season is such a rarity: rookies almost invariably struggle, and comparitively more so when their teammate is a multiple champion.

Throw in a car that is a long way from the best, in a team that is built around your teammate, and it's not hard to forecast a tough first season.

The potential for the future was there, but Piquet never expected to fight for the championship in his first season in GP2, and never made any claims that he would, all the while trying to build his team from effectively nothing. Grosjean was expected to fight for the championship after winning GP2 Asia, and he was with a top team: there's quite a substantial difference in opportunity there.

Kobayashi was super fast all season, but was let down a little by his team. Plus the usual rookie mistakes, which have been largely ironed out of the system. Testing means nothing, and I haven't factored that in at all, but Kobayashi is a much more polished performer now than he was 12 months ago: he's still easily as fast as Nakajima, but much more consistent in his application.

Well, accident or whatever, Andretti was 8th after the first lap, and 21st after the second. The way he fought back to the front, and got onto the podium, was highly impressive, if aided by retirements in front of him.

And IMO Andretti's record in America demonstrated plenty of potential, he didn't need to prove his talent all over again in F1. It was just up to him and Mclaren to put it to use, which they totally failed to do. Pre-Indy 1995 Al Jr. might've been interesting in Formula One (didn't he get a Williams test?), too, but we're going into speculation here.

Could it be that Flavio isn't the best boss for a new driver with potential who's also rightly nervous of making the right impression.

Lets not forget what people were saying about Heikki last season. Piquet didn't turn shit overnight so is Renault the best place to start a career?

Ben

Both drivers also sat out a year testing and looked lost in their first few F1 races, and Piquet got far less mileage in 2007 due to testing restrictions than Heikki in 2006.

Though Alonso didn't when he did it in 02/03. Of course he also had a season of Minardi under his belt and knew how an F1 weekend is to be approached.

A parallel can be made between son and father here. While 1979 wasn't technically Piquet Senior's rookie year since he had a few GPs in uncompetitive machinery the previous year, it was his first full season. Like his son 29 years later, he had in Niki Lauda a two-time World Champion teammate who had won the title just two years previously. Nelson had a slow start to the year, but over the course of the season he nearly matched Lauda's qualifying pace and finished the year starting on the front row. The Brabhams rarely finished races though, making comparing points totals almost meaningless.

when he runs up front he looks much more convincing

Chalk and Cheese my friends....
different era, different cars, different points system, different personalities, different human beings, and, most importantly.... vastly different talent.
Basically, Piquet ain`t no Senna, never was, and never will be...

Which is in fact very rare.

He had one or maybe two great races this year (Fuji and Magny-Cours), all the other results were luck.

He`s most likely to be better than Luciano Burti and definitely better than Pedro Diniz though....

no he wouldn't...half points were awarded in monaco....so he would have 20 points...

why was he lucky in hungary??

He drove really well at Germany even tho he lucked in.

I was expecting more from him. Anyway Renault is a very political team (which one is not?) and having Alonso after last year's problem at Mc for sure didn't help. He had some good races and quite sure the speed is there but psychologically he needs to up the game. Now that Alonso is back to winning races and the car is improving it would be great to have him there one more year to assess his potential clearly. Hope he nails it although I would love to see DeGrassi having a chance. Let's see what happens.

I remember a certain Ralf Schumacher, who crashed and spinned his car way more than Nelsinho, and still got away and had a rather long career in F1.

Maybe its getting tougher each year with the level of expectation being higher (see Bourdais, for instance). I dunno if he will get a reprieve, but I think NP deserves more time to hone his skills.

Ralf was more or less as fast as his teammate(s).

Niki Lauda was trounced by Ronnie Peterson, though. And Nigel Mansell was outperformed by Elio De Angelis more often than not.

Ralf had Fisichella as his first teamate, hardly comparable to a double WDC, whos touted as the best driver of current F1.

And he'll be just as hopeless as HK has ben this year too. Actually i think he's even worse.

For the utter life of me I can't see what HK did iin 07 that was so great.

tbh im not sure he drove any worse than alonso at singapour (in comparison to germany).

curiously alonso spun at germany

alonso lucked in because it was really hard to overtake there, while hockenhiem was much easier.

piquet might do better if he was the lead guy in the team and a major influence, thats what hes been used to