Originally posted by Buttoneer
Look like Gareth have point.
Look like Gareth have point.
I expect someone will disagree even if the evidence is in front of their eyes...
I expect someone will disagree even if the evidence is in front of their eyes...
Originally posted by Buttoneer
Look like Gareth have point.
Look like Gareth have point.
Okay, he has. Were's the bow down smiley?
Originally posted by Gareth
20s gap when Massa comes out after his final stop. Without the 25s ish lost from the stop and go, Hamilton would have had track position for the final stint of the race.
20s gap when Massa comes out after his final stop. Without the 25s ish lost from the stop and go, Hamilton would have had track position for the final stint of the race.
most probably yes.
in racing it's not that easy just to extract the penalty and voila. maybe he would have been stuck at a slower pace behind somebody around 7th place, or whatever...with the penalty he basically had an air free race. maybe he would have had traffic
but who knows, really
Originally posted by bond
I expect someone will disagree even if the evidence is in front of their eyes...
I expect someone will disagree even if the evidence is in front of their eyes...
Wrong, as usual...
Originally posted by as65p
Wrong, as usual...
Wrong, as usual...
Was not talking to you
Originally posted by as65p
Okay, he has. Were's the bow down smiley?
Okay, he has. Were's the bow down smiley?
Honestly, I'm as surprised as you are. Not that I should be surprised Gareth has a point (honest, Gareth) but I hadn't bothered to look and check when you and others mentioned that it would have made no difference.
Karma suggests Hamilton should have walked away with zero points, and that's what he did.
Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
most probably yes.
in racing it's not that easy just to extract the penalty and voila. maybe he would have been stuck at a slower pace behind somebody around 7th place, or whatever...with the penalty he basically had an air free race. maybe he would have had traffic
but who knows, really
most probably yes.
in racing it's not that easy just to extract the penalty and voila. maybe he would have been stuck at a slower pace behind somebody around 7th place, or whatever...with the penalty he basically had an air free race. maybe he would have had traffic
but who knows, really
Completely agree with everything you say here.
Originally posted by Risil
It's not that he pushed Kimi offline in itself -- that's a block pass, one of the standard techniques a racing driver uses. But Hamilton was not even close to making a pass, he simply braked too late to make the corner, ran off the road, and wrecked Raikkonen's race while recovering to second. By keeping the position over Kimi (which is where even if it was a mistake, his move differs with Kimi's in Monaco), Hamilton has overtaken him, but only after getting an unfair advantage by not braking enough to take the corner, and effectively bullying a title rival who had the correct line off the racetrack. All things taken into account, I'd say that's deserving of a penalty.
As for Kova, it looks a little weird. He carries around the same entry speed as Raikkonen, unlike Hamilton, but the car just refuses to turn. I'd say that's possibly on the exact threshold between driver error in a fraught situation, and reckless, unsporting driving (a line that Hamilton has tap-danced over more than once, IMO). But I'd hate to have been a steward in this situation: the only option is really to have an objective way of penalising drivers who go off the track. Like, uh, grass.
It's not that he pushed Kimi offline in itself -- that's a block pass, one of the standard techniques a racing driver uses. But Hamilton was not even close to making a pass, he simply braked too late to make the corner, ran off the road, and wrecked Raikkonen's race while recovering to second. By keeping the position over Kimi (which is where even if it was a mistake, his move differs with Kimi's in Monaco), Hamilton has overtaken him, but only after getting an unfair advantage by not braking enough to take the corner, and effectively bullying a title rival who had the correct line off the racetrack. All things taken into account, I'd say that's deserving of a penalty.
As for Kova, it looks a little weird. He carries around the same entry speed as Raikkonen, unlike Hamilton, but the car just refuses to turn. I'd say that's possibly on the exact threshold between driver error in a fraught situation, and reckless, unsporting driving (a line that Hamilton has tap-danced over more than once, IMO). But I'd hate to have been a steward in this situation: the only option is really to have an objective way of penalising drivers who go off the track. Like, uh, grass.
Look at where Hammy goes off, it's nowhere near in-line with the start/finish straight but well round the corner, half way or so, and the car is turned pointing roughly where it should be. He nearly made it, just ran off the edge onto the grass.
Yes Lewis was in Kimi's way but not illegally. Overshooting often happens, and often the driver on the outside cuts back and retakes the place, it's not a penalty situation.
Heikki needed to brake earlier than Lewis and Kimi because he didn't have clean air over his front wing, but he got carried along, that's why it went wrong for him.
And they did get penalised by circumstances, Hamilton falt-spotted his tyres, so it wasn't going to pay off, it was a mistake. Heikki even if he didn't have damage didn't gain an advantage, nobody planned to overshoot the apex, it's slower, but they all did bar the very last car.
And re the runoff at least they all stayed in the race, for us to keep watching.
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
Originally posted by RodrigoL
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
He was ahead of Alonso and that was Alonso passing him and squeezing him by the looks of it. He must have seriously held him up in the process because he went from 2nd to 6th in 2 corners.
Originally posted by RodrigoL
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
It seems you're loosing it...
Get a grip...
Originally posted by RodrigoL
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
It seems Hamilton was a naughty boy on more than one occasion.
Now, if only Alonso moved further to the left....
Originally posted by Scotracer
He was ahead of Alonso and that was Alonso passing him and squeezing him by the looks of it. He must have seriously held him up in the process because he went from 2nd to 6th in 2 corners.
He was ahead of Alonso and that was Alonso passing him and squeezing him by the looks of it. He must have seriously held him up in the process because he went from 2nd to 6th in 2 corners.
Hamilton went off the road again in the second corner. That's how Piquet and Massa (and im sure others) got by him.
Originally posted by D.M.N.
Now, if only Alonso moved further to the left....
Now, if only Alonso moved further to the left....
Then it would be a massive crash involving hamilton, heikki, kimi, massa and a few others...
They all where flat out at that time...
Originally posted by Scotracer
He was ahead of Alonso and that was Alonso passing him and squeezing him by the looks of it. He must have seriously held him up in the process because he went from 2nd to 6th in 2 corners.
He was ahead of Alonso and that was Alonso passing him and squeezing him by the looks of it. He must have seriously held him up in the process because he went from 2nd to 6th in 2 corners.
dude watch the replay. He went off in corner 3 all by himself. Alonso was long gone.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423
Ikkle defends Lewis and Bourdias Moves saying they didn't deserve a penalty..
Ikkle defends Lewis and Bourdias Moves saying they didn't deserve a penalty..
Originally posted by Mika Mika
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423
Ikkle defends Lewis and Bourdias Moves saying they didn't deserve a penalty..
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423
Ikkle defends Lewis and Bourdias Moves saying they didn't deserve a penalty..
I may not be up to speed on current slang, so could you please explain how Nick Heidfeld got the nick (pun intended) of 'Ikkle'?
Ikkle nick
and in Little Nick...
I met him and he's only 63cm tall and he was standing on a stool ;).
Seriously though he was such a nice guy really took time to chat to us. Very down to earth!
Ever since Ive always wanted him to do really well!
and in Little Nick...
I met him and he's only 63cm tall
and he was standing on a stool ;).
Seriously though he was such a nice guy really took time to chat to us. Very down to earth!
Ever since Ive always wanted him to do really well!
The first incident: Lewis didn't deserve penalty. He basically outbraked himself.
The second incident: Massa hit Lewis. PENALTY. Massa should've conceded
The third incident: I think that's a penalty. Just.
The second incident: Massa hit Lewis. PENALTY. Massa should've conceded
The third incident: I think that's a penalty. Just.
I think they ALL deserved 2 punishementz!!!!
Originally posted by D.M.N.
I'm being serious.
At this point, Massa had several choices:
1) Shortcut the corner over the bit of gravel (not advisable).
2) Fight the position and force Hamilton to not take the apex.
3) Back off completely.
Massa's a racing driver, options 1 and 3 null and void.
Option 2 the only accessable option, Hamilton IMO never gave Massa enough room which forced Massa onto the kerbs and into him.
I'm being serious.
At this point, Massa had several choices:
1) Shortcut the corner over the bit of gravel (not advisable).
2) Fight the position and force Hamilton to not take the apex.
3) Back off completely.
Massa's a racing driver, options 1 and 3 null and void.
Option 2 the only accessable option, Hamilton IMO never gave Massa enough room which forced Massa onto the kerbs and into him.
But he took option 1.
http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
Originally posted by D.M.N.
http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
To me it's still the same. Nick is absolutely right with his evaluations.
Anyways, loved the music in that clip.
Originally posted by D.M.N.
http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html
A full race review is now up there.
A onboard from Kovalainen's car of turn 1 is included....
Is there an on-board from Bourdais' car during the Massa collision?
Originally posted by Rob
Is there an on-board from Bourdais' car during the Massa collision?
Is there an on-board from Bourdais' car during the Massa collision?
I'm sure there is, but they are not releasing it.
Originally posted by Clatter
I'm sure there is, but they are not releasing it.
It might not be useful. IIRC not all the camera pods are full of camera and those that are do not always point in the direction the stewards might prefer. So McLaren's from behind the steering wheel versus Ferrari's from the wing mirror and Toro Rosso possibly back through the front suspension.
I'm sure there is, but they are not releasing it.
Originally posted by Buttoneer
It might not be useful. IIRC not all the camera pods are full of camera and those that are do not always point in the direction the stewards might prefer. So McLaren's from behind the steering wheel versus Ferrari's from the wing mirror and Toro Rosso possibly back through the front suspension.
It might not be useful. IIRC not all the camera pods are full of camera and those that are do not always point in the direction the stewards might prefer. So McLaren's from behind the steering wheel versus Ferrari's from the wing mirror and Toro Rosso possibly back through the front suspension.
I know not all cameras are installed on all cars, but thought the camera's on top of the airbox always are now.
Originally posted by Clatter
I know not all cameras are installed on all cars, but thought the camera's on top of the airbox always are now.
I'm not certain what the situation is, which is why I've phrased it that way.
I know not all cameras are installed on all cars, but thought the camera's on top of the airbox always are now.
I've dug out the 2008 tech regs:
20.3 Location and fitting of camera equipment :
20.3.1 All cars must be equipped with five positions in which cameras or camera housings can be fitted. Referring to Drawing 6, all cars must carry a camera or camera housing in position 4, the position of the remaining camera or camera housing will be determined by the FIA after consultation with the relevant Competitor.
20.3.1 All cars must be equipped with five positions in which cameras or camera housings can be fitted. Referring to Drawing 6, all cars must carry a camera or camera housing in position 4, the position of the remaining camera or camera housing will be determined by the FIA after consultation with the relevant Competitor.
Drawing 6 is at the end of the document and shows that position 4 is indeed the housing at the top. I guess that it wouldn't much matter in this case whether it was facing forward or backward. It would give us a better idea either way.
Originally posted by Hippo
To me it's still the same. Nick is absolutely right with his evaluations.
Anyways, loved the music in that clip.
what a great choice of tune,
To me it's still the same. Nick is absolutely right with his evaluations.
Anyways, loved the music in that clip.
'what did you learn today? I learnt nothing'
At the time I did not think that Felipe deserved a penalty. After watching the incident in slow motion, I think that the stewards got it right.
It does not really matter what we think, it will change nothing. What did strike me though is that in all three cases, there was some really dumb driving. We all want to see racing, but some of this just goes too far. It is kamikaze driving. If this was Andea de Cesaris, he would have been pilloried by now. This anything goes attitude is dumb and it will get someone killed if it is not stamped out. Drivers are no longer playing chicken with each other, saying "well ok sunshine, you go there if you are brave enough". They are not even leaving each other enough space, they are simply driving each other off the track.
This was dumb, dumber and dumbest.
It does not really matter what we think, it will change nothing. What did strike me though is that in all three cases, there was some really dumb driving. We all want to see racing, but some of this just goes too far. It is kamikaze driving. If this was Andea de Cesaris, he would have been pilloried by now. This anything goes attitude is dumb and it will get someone killed if it is not stamped out. Drivers are no longer playing chicken with each other, saying "well ok sunshine, you go there if you are brave enough". They are not even leaving each other enough space, they are simply driving each other off the track.
This was dumb, dumber and dumbest.
Originally posted by pgj
At the time I did not think that Felipe deserved a penalty.
At the time I did not think that Felipe deserved a penalty.
Originally posted by Craven Morehead
dude watch the replay. He went off in corner 3 all by himself. Alonso was long gone.
dude watch the replay. He went off in corner 3 all by himself. Alonso was long gone.
I haven't seen the footage -- I've not be able to find it yet. You got a link?
I'm not taking any sides here, I don't particularly like Alonso or Hamilton
Originally posted by Enkei
would have probably earned him more points than he did in the end. Hamilton's tyres were gone (Ferrari could have known that) and later became clear he was to serve a drive-through.
.
would have probably earned him more points than he did in the end. Hamilton's tyres were gone (Ferrari could have known that) and later became clear he was to serve a drive-through.
.
Thats a good point, Ferrari would have to be brain dead to not realise that Hammo's tyres would have been stuffed after that lockup, knew he would have to pit and should have advised Massa to let him go through and don't fight. So now I blame the Ferrari Team for this nonsense.
Originally posted by D.M.N.
Two different motor sports. Arguably, a motorcycle rider would prefer to fall off on gravel than tarmac.
Two different motor sports. Arguably, a motorcycle rider would prefer to fall off on gravel than tarmac.
Then you haven't taken a fall on both have you? tarmac you slide across, gravel effen hurts.
Originally posted by cheapracer
Thats a good point, Ferrari would have to be brain dead to not realise that Hammo's tyres would have been stuffed after that lockup, knew he would have to pit and should have advised Massa to let him go through and don't fight. So now I blame the Ferrari Team for this nonsense.
Thats a good point, Ferrari would have to be brain dead to not realise that Hammo's tyres would have been stuffed after that lockup, knew he would have to pit and should have advised Massa to let him go through and don't fight. So now I blame the Ferrari Team for this nonsense.
And they were supposed to do that in the couple of seconds that the incident occurred in?
Originally posted by Clatter
And they were supposed to do that in the couple of seconds that the incident occurred in?
And they were supposed to do that in the couple of seconds that the incident occurred in?
Well he buggered his tyres in Turn 1 lap 1 and overtook Massa at Turn 7 of lap 2. That's a couple of minutes.
Originally posted by Clatter
And they were supposed to do that in the couple of seconds that the incident occurred in?
And they were supposed to do that in the couple of seconds that the incident occurred in?
Gees I know some of you think Lewis is good but to get from Turn 1 to the Chicane + 1 lap in "a couple of seconds" is stretching it a bit don't you think? Or is it just that you didn't really think before you posted?
Originally posted by cheapracer
Gees I know some of you think Lewis is good but to get from Turn 1 to the Chicane + 1 lap in "a couple of seconds" is stretching it a bit don't you think? Or is it just that you didn't really think before you posted?
Gees I know some of you think Lewis is good but to get from Turn 1 to the Chicane + 1 lap in "a couple of seconds" is stretching it a bit don't you think? Or is it just that you didn't really think before you posted?
No I think it's you not thinking.
Prior to the chicane FM was in front, so why would they tell him to let LH go? Or do you think they would be on the radio saying "Let him go if you screw up"?
In the time between him making the error and then ramming LH they wouldnt have had time to tell him bugger all.
Originally posted by Scotracer
Well he buggered his tyres in Turn 1 lap 1 and overtook Massa at Turn 7 of lap 2. That's a couple of minutes.
Well he buggered his tyres in Turn 1 lap 1 and overtook Massa at Turn 7 of lap 2. That's a couple of minutes.
Do you seriously think they would advise a driver to let another through when there is no reason to? And at that point neither they nor us knew his tyres were shot. They could guess, but it was only after the pitstop that we got that news and knew for sure. They would certainly have looked bloody silly if they let him through and he didnt then pit.
Originally posted by Clatter
No I think it's you not thinking.
Prior to the chicane FM was in front, so why would they tell him to let LH go? Or do you think they would be on the radio saying "Let him go if you screw up"?
In the time between him making the error and then ramming LH they wouldnt have had time to tell him bugger all.
No I think it's you not thinking.
Prior to the chicane FM was in front, so why would they tell him to let LH go? Or do you think they would be on the radio saying "Let him go if you screw up"?
In the time between him making the error and then ramming LH they wouldnt have had time to tell him bugger all.
The teams will want to relay all the relevant information to their drivers. It's a big deal if your main title contender is breathing down on you but has tyre issues. They would or at least should have told him.
Originally posted by Scotracer
The teams will want to relay all the relevant information to their drivers. It's a big deal if your main title contender is breathing down on you but has tyre issues. They would or at least should have told him.
The teams will want to relay all the relevant information to their drivers. It's a big deal if your main title contender is breathing down on you but has tyre issues. They would or at least should have told him.
But they wouldnt know for sure, it didnt seem to be affecting his performance and there was no indication prior to the spin that he was going to pit. All this talk about his tyres being shot is purely from hindsight.
Originally posted by cheapracer
Then you haven't taken a fall on both have you? tarmac you slide across, gravel effen hurts.
Then you haven't taken a fall on both have you? tarmac you slide across, gravel effen hurts.
Gravel looks really painful. It doesn't look too bad on tarmac because they just slide, but when they start tumbling you hold your breath for them.
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