are you serious

I certainly think they chose exactly what footage to release and which not to.

The camera angle shown for thr Hamilton/Kimi incident from the inside of turn one would have been a great shot to show for the Massa/Bourdais incident but strangely it's not included, similarly with the Bourdais incar.

I don't agree. At this point Massa was already steering left onto the chicane and accelerating. See the gap laterally between him and Hamilton, it never closed at all, he wasn't trying to pull alongside on the track. He planned to clatter over the tip of the chicane and he knew that if Lewis was anywhere near the racing line he would hit him. You could argue that he hoped Lewis would go wide round the left-hander but it was a faint hope. So you might say it wasn't "deliberate" in the sense of being a certainty, but it was done knowing that there was a big risk of a collision.

As I said at the time, he wouldn't have done it with Kimi. IMO he was desperate not to be humiliated again being easily pressured and passed by Lewis, so he deliberately accepted the likelihood that he would hit him.

Absolutely. Why haven't they released the footage from Bourdais' onboard camera?

Looking at the boom-camera it isn't following Massa or Bourdais so it wouldn't have caught anything.

1 - The incoherence in the stewards ruling is what annoys me the most in relation to Hamilton's penalty. Only a short time ago we saw hell break loose at Spa and not a single penalty was served, not even to Bourdais who hit Trulli from behind and caused a great mess. Not to mention missing the first corner is nothing new in racing and happens all the time. If you don't want it, bring on rolling starts;

2 - I cannot believe some people stand up for Massa. He cut the corner and caused a perfectly avoidable incident. Hamilton was in the same situation at Spa and he took off the track to avoid collision. It's that simple. Massa fought for positions several times at Monza and his approach was far much more cautions and careful, not once did we see him stick himself where there wasn't room to try a move or defend himself from one. He missed the corner, Hamilton passed him, he had the perfectly reasonable option of tucking behind and trying a move later. That should have been the end of story. And by the way, being a racer isn't an excuse for being bonehead and driving your car over the grass to later ram it into others. The penalty should have been a 10 second stop and go, considering the reckless behaviour on Massa's part and the risk he put Hamilton in, facing traffic with a dozen or so cars closely packed to pass by;

3 - Most ridiculous penalty since Alonso at Monza 2006. Bourdais was exiting the pits and had rights and reasons to be there at the corner. Massa simply ignored all caution and reason threw himself over Bourdais, probably misguided by the same red mist/incompetence/dishonesty which threw him over Hamilton.

Going frame-by frame I'm pretty sure Bourdais had his right side wheels on the kerb until he and Massa collided. Massa's onboard shows him getting closer and closer to Bourdais until they hit. Massa turned in like Bourdais wasn't there.

just like hamilton did with massa

Erm... Massa decided to cut the corner because he had no hope in hell of staying alongside Hamilton through the corner.

So put your damn foot on the brakes!

You are right, Massa could avoid both collision. I think he wasnt the only one who had a brain problem.

he didn't cut any corner...watch again..
he was all over the kerb as it was the only available space he had

No Mike, just like Massa did to Hamilton, thats why Massa was penalised...

The onboard footage from Bourdais would help though.. I'll give you that

Kerb != track.

Or cut the corner even more. That would have worked too. Probably could have gotten out ahead of Hamilton as well without getting a penalty.

Hamilton has admitted he made a stupid mistake on first corner of the race. Strategically, it wasn't necessary to do what he did..

I'm still uneasy with the penaly though, first time I see a penalty of this nature, I don't like the move or the penalty..

The only legit penalty, IMHO, was Massa on Hamilton at the chicane... the rest is just the Stewards stealing the show..

I don't know what is more interesting about the three incidents, the similarities or the differences. In all three cases, the car in front was on the outside of the turn. A drive came from behind up the inside. The degree by which each was in front varied.

In case one, the leading car took avoiding action.
In case two, the leading car took no avoiding action.
In case three, the leading car took no avoiding action.

It brings up an interesting point. Do you punish the action, or the result of the action? At least in this case, the FIA decided that it is the action and not the effect that is punishable. Does the fact that someone else took avoiding action make an action not punishable? Is intent the difference?

Agreed - it was a mistake, it wasn't a deliberate attempt at a take-out.

Of course had Hamilton done what Massa did here he'd be getting rather more stick for it.

FOV

the best option for the race would have been

1. hamilton not getting penalty for turn 1
2. massa not hitting hamilton
3. massa and hamilton get no drive thrus
4. massa trys to pass hamilton on track with hamilton having flat spots
5. massa runs into hamilton turn 1 both retire
6. ????????
7. profit

It's not Massa's penalty what I am questioning, it's Massa's penalty in light of such incidents in the past not penalised ;)

kerbs are part of the track

Stupid but not surprising the director missed it. They always do in Japan. They're always having cameras with them, but when it really matters they still miss the plot :\

it's just the same freaking thing as with bordais. the car on the outside left no space on the inside.
that's why i said give all of them as a penalty or none
what is the big fuss ?!

Get a grip, you're loosing it...

Nope, Bourdais didn't come from behind to hit Massa... Massa was in control (causing a collision or not) of the situation on both occasions.

Like mentionned before, this special video montage seems to have been released to try to explain the penalties, but it is missing at least one critical piece of footage--> the Bourdais onboard.

Let me quote myself:

So what's the difference between this and what happened in Spa? All the Ferrai mobsters where saying there that Hamilton should have backed off behind Raikkonen. So why shouldn't Massa have backed off here?

Nobody seems to have mentioned that in the Massa/Bourdais incident Massa was the one doing the overtaking. So, based on the Spa precedent, had to give way as he was not fully ahead going into the corner.

Or is this yet another mega mega clear rule that needs to be mega mega mega invented, er, sorry, clarified?

This is nothing like Spa. Massa attempted an overtake. Lewis didn't - he elected to cut the chicane. He could easily have braked.

Yes, Massa could have braked. But he chose to challenge for position. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Lewis' defence that he would have hit Kimi in Spa otherwise is BS.

Lewis has a major red mist problem and doesn't like to admit defeat.

He did it at the start of the race after being overtaken by Kimi. He did it in Spa by choosing to get an advantage across the chicane. He did it in France by choosing to straight line the chicane. He hates being beaten but he refuses to concede in a battle and live to fight another day.

Reminds me of a baby throwing toys out of the pram.

massa didn't cut any corners in either accidents, so Spa is not precedent

You've just described the Massa penalty at Fuji, the only one that warranted Steward's intervention IMO..

What would you have said if Lewis did to Massa in the first part of that chicane what Massa did to Lewis in the second part? I expect an honest answer on that mate..

To the OP;
YOU, as well as any other broadcasting aficionado, should realise the effect of lens foreshortening in on-board cameras.

Penalty 1
1) Kimi moved over on Lewis as much as Lewis moved over on Kimi
2) YES, Lewis did cause Kimi to run wide....but never touched him.
Penalty 2
1) Massa had lost the corner already and tried to retaliate
Penalty 3
1) Massa hit Bordais not the other way around

Verdict: FIA instructing stewards as to what outcome they desired

I also am bemused by the fact that on the page they offer the clips they say..."What do you think"..
Yet they do not provide anywhere for us to do just that....Tell them what we think !!!

Jp

Hamilton did back off, but in turn elected to cut the chicane. He could have stayed on the track.

BTW, this incident has no relation to Spa whatsoever. IF Massa cut the chicane to stay ahead, then I would see you're point, but I don't.

So it's better to cut the chicane to ram your opponent than to cut the chicane to avoid your opponent?

Uhhh
He was shoved wide by Kimi at the bus stop (no penalty) just like Lewis made Kimi run wide at Fuji (penalty)
Jp

That's a strange penalty, isn't it? clearly too much interventionism from the stewards IMO..

It did look like a GV-vs-RA-at-Dijon-79 maneuver, which is widely seen as best F1 RACING ever, but Lewis couldn't land that move properly and Kimi saw it coming and let Hamilton destroy his tires...

What's becoming clear is that the Stewarding process is not transparent enough, and too present at the same time..

Better not race because you'll get BB bashing and a penalty for both.

I think what is clear is that cognitive dissonance reigns supreme and it doesn't matter what the videos show, people are only going to see what coheres to what they want to see.

In my view Massa and Hamilton both definitely deserved their penalties.

I originally thought in the Bourdais one that Massa should have been penalised again, but now perhaps think Bourdais was more at fault than I first thought.

The only thing we can say for an absolute fact is that there was no intent to hit Hamilton on Massa's part. He was at full lock from corner entry to impact. His mistake was going into the corner in the first place. An understandable mistake and certainly one Hamilton can't get sore at given his incidents this year.

But Massa's mistake all the same.

Deceptive picture - it looks like they're coming up to a simple left hand corner and Lewis closed the door. BUT, we all know this was part of a chicane; Massa out braked himself, got in a mess, got off line and lost speed. Meanwhile Hamilton was straight lining the chicane (pulling away from Massa) only to find Massa trying to jump up the inside when the door was clearly going to be shut when he got there. In fact you can still see Massa steering for the right hander!

The Bourdais incident is very different, despite it looking similar to the screen shot above.

In fact why am I wasting my time writing this. There's only a handful of people out of hundreds that still think Massa did no wrong.... chances of them coming to their senses? Nil

That might be a very good reason for FOM/FIA never to repeat this experiment

There is a difference. First of all, Massa has only done this once this season. His move surprised me.

Secondly, his move was more of desperation as we come to the end of the season. Desperation is a human trait that we can forgive happening on rare occasions.

But Hamilton has thrown his toys out of the pram again and again over the entire season. This is not desperation. This is pure arrogance. BIG DIFFERENCE.

That's a wise decision. Not very common in this BB.

Thanks for the link!

Lewis penalty - Not much new. He and Kimi braked at same time, Lewis locked up on inside and ran wide. Kova came in and actually forced Kimi off but the incident was started by Lewis.

Massa v Lewis - LOOOL at massa thinking Lewis pushed him wide. Lewis was nowhere near he just watched massa screw up. Unfortunately it seems Massa used his lack of talent as justification for the punt

Your last sentence - Did you watch the same Massa onboard

Massa v Bourdais - Just proves further how Massa was in no way entitled to the line as he didnt get fullly ahead. BOURDAIS GETTING PENALTY HERE IS AKIN TO KIMI GETTING A PENALTY HAD LEWIS LEFT THE CAR IN THE TRACK AT SPA.

Again, option 2 sounds exactly to me like what Hamilton did to Kimi on first corner of the race.

Hamilton got a penalty from the Stewards after he did Option 2... if its the only accessable option then we got a problem!

Looks to me like Massa's real options were 1 and 3.

Option 1 could have avoided a collision as long as Massa gave back any advantage gained, if any, to Hamilton.. (thats still high risk with the Stewards though, well maybe not )

Option 3 sounds like the safest in the current context, concede then come right back at Lewis later if the opportunity arises, maybe not 'Back off completely' though, just back off enough is alright.

It was FUJI TV - not FOM coverage

The Massa/Bourdais one is the interesting one, IMHO.

I see it as Massa not considering where Bourdais was - probably thought he was clear ahead and that SB would tuck in behind.
I don't think Massa expected him to contest the corner, and so he simply left zero room.
Which I think is culpable negligence.
He could see the car emerging from the pits, but he never seemed to be concerned as to where it went or if he was clear ahead before claiming the apex.
Was it "just a Toro Rosso"?

BUT - I'm not totally certain of Bourdais' innocence. I don't know the extent to which he belatedly "stuck it up the inside".
The Massa onboard seems to show SB moving up on him -- BUT that is at least partly going to be caused by Massa's car (and camera) turning, so moving SB towards the left of the frame.
If that footage (and not the SB onboard) was shown to some muddle-headed Stewards, I could understand them thinking it showed SB making a late run down the inside -- which (since FM's car was turning) it really doesn't.

I think the clip shows Massa being negligent, careless, or over-confident. Maybe even arrogant.
Certainly not blameless for the contact.

I'm not sure whether it was an unpenalisable incident, or both should be penalised, or just Massa.
But importantly, I don't think it shows Bourdais, and Bourdais alone, deserving a penalty.

I want to see the SB onboard, or to know what happened to it.

quote: Originally posted by Bloggsworth
High quality footage which makes it absolutely clear that

A) Hamilton touched nobody in the first corner, didn't deserve a penalty, and

B) Massa made no attempt to avoid hitting Hamilton, and

C) Bourdais was unfairly penalised.

MikeTekRacing

let me guess...mclaren/hamilton fan, right?

No - Just someone who has helped build Indycars for Clark and Gurney, raced single seaters, and been watching motor-racing for about 50 years

But hey! What would I know?

Watching this just shows what a farce the rulings were:

1) Hamilton's move on Kimi wasn't particularly out of the ordinary for turn-1

2) Massa had a massive brain fart

3) Massa had an aftershock brain fart.

Well, its not like the thing is called 'Japanese Grand Prix footage - what do you think? ', is it?