http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

Very interesting to see FOM have released this!

Start
1) World Feed w/ extensions for each camera
2) Hamilton onboard

Hamilton/Massa
3) World Feed
4) Massa onboard
5) Hamilton onboard
6) Slow-mo of wide camera

Bourdais/Massa
7) World Feed
8) Massa side-view
*NOTE: I would prefer a Massa and Bourdais onboard view, but they haven't released it.

The more I look at Massa onboard in Hamilton/Massa the more I think Massa didn't deserve a penalty.

Get a life...

You are very much right. It was not Massa that drove into Hamilton when there was no chance in hell to retake position.
I guess it was the car that should have been punished, or perhaps it was the accelerator pedal itself that went kamikaze.

It sure makes the Bourdais penalty more understandable when you see the view from Massa's mirror cam. He was ahead, basically.

Hamilton wasn't going to make the first corner, and by braking too late he forced Raikkonen into driving off the road. The fact that he was third prior to the braking zone suggests very much that the braking was reckless. When such recklessness resulted in drastic avoiding action from the leading car (equal to contact, really), a penalty is probably fair.

It's possible to argue that if Massa didn't steer left, he would've hit Hamilton's front wheel a lot earlier. But he put himself in that situation by making a mistake coming into the corner, and should've stood on the brakes and let Hamilton through. I think a penalty is certainly justifiable.

to FOM in releasing this, incidentally.

I wonder why FOM does not include such footage in world feed?

I remember watching 2007 season review on DVD and I was shocked to see some key moments (like Alonso furious in USA and Alonso crashing in Fuji) of racing never shown during the broadcast.

Still I want to see footage of Hamilton crossing the chicane in France - claimed to be thoroughly analyzed by stewards. Or is this a hint that I should buy a full year review?

For a kick off I think it stinks that this footage has only just become available. The director had access to it during the race and could have shown it at any point as a replay.

Secondly, the onboard footage from Massa is just infuriating me even more that the wrong guy was punished.

some countries get different pictures,i know premiere in germany gets different pictures (eg alonso last year,they saw his crash in japan as it happened,world feed didnt pick it up)

Schumi should have tried the 'but the handbrake made me do it at Monaco in 2006.

No, the videos in my mind vindicate each decision.

I thought Bourdais was hard done by but now not so much.

Massa hitting Hamilton is a no-brainer - flip deserved a penalty no question.

Hamilton's startline antics were ridiculous and he too deserved a penalty for the chaos he wreaked behind him. You can't do something boneheaded like that and benefit from it as he appeared to (i.e. severely hindered Kimi).

So it seems the Stewards got it right on all three counts.

the japanese use their own directors for their race............and theyre notorious for missing practically anything thats even remotely important,so the director probly didnt even notice he had some new footage he could have used in a replay

WTF!, thats news item on its own!



Crazy F1..

Just slightly ahead and on the outside. That's fair enough, but don't turn in on the guy who's already taken the inside line.

That's twice in one race Massa turned his car into somebody else's. The guy is the absolute criminal 0 out of 10 pits.

Whaaaat?!

It's absolute dynamite footage! Any director worth the name on seeing those incidents would instantly have asked his team to go back and see what footage they had of it. They tend to look for replays during live sporting events. This is the first time I've ever seen official footage from a sporting event just suddenly come to light two days later.

I concur.

I'm being serious.



At this point, Massa had several choices:

1) Shortcut the corner over the bit of gravel (not advisable).
2) Fight the position and force Hamilton to not take the apex.
3) Back off completely.

Massa's a racing driver, options 1 and 3 null and void.

Option 2 the only accessable option, Hamilton IMO never gave Massa enough room which forced Massa onto the kerbs and into him.

What's interesting, I think, about the Massa footage isn't that it absolves him of blame, but that it does show that it wasn't an entirely premeditated, cynical move. He tried to stay side-by-side with Hamilton, and as Hamilton took the corner, he was forced onto the gravel on very cold tyres and lost control. Massa should not have been with Hamilton at that point, Lewis had won the corner, but some of the camera angles do make it look as if Felipe just pointed his car at Hamilton and accelerated.

both hamilton and massa are driving like idiots. not at all like world champions.
sometimes if you want to win the title you have to drive conservatively.
massa didn't even look to see where bourdais was on the entrance to the first corner.
he deserved a penalty there not bourdais.

Excellent footage. Nice.

What's difference between that and the Bourdais penalty?

No on-board footage from Bourdais' car.

but..

Massa was effectively passed by Hamilton there, he didn't accept it... compare that to what Hamilton did at Spa... looking at that makes me think Hamilton should have closed the door like Kimi did to him at Spa.. Hamilton back then made sure not to take Kimi out..

Option 2 makes the first corner penalty to Hamilton stupid so is it really an option?

Stewards should stay out of it most of the time.

Good point, yeah.

Pretty much my view of it too.

I actually agreed with you on this one, all three look like the right decision in light of the video evidence. I was never in doubt of the massa v hamilton, or the hamilton v raikonnen penalties, but wasn't convinced with the boudais one, and looking as it does in the video that massa was ahead throughout the corner then this too looks like a fair penalty and I hate to admit it but consitent examples in each of the person behind causing a collision or potential collison and getting the penalty.

Let's see,

Option 1 is indeed not advisable. Cutting corners to avoid contact is not allowed. That would create a Spa-Francorchamp-esque incident and would surely result in a drive-through for Hamil... eh Massa!

Option 3 would have probably earned him more points than he did in the end. Hamilton's tyres were gone (Ferrari could have known that) and later became clear he was to serve a drive-through.

So, option 2, ramming Hamilton and collecting a drive-through which sent him to the back of the pack would indeed be the most sensible thing to do.

if bourdais was being lapped, then I would understand the penalty.
but he was as far to the inside as possible with out giving way like a lapped car.
if you are racign for position I think it is fair to try and defend your spot

I can only judge that when/if I get footage.

I'd like to see the camera inside turn 1 (i.e. the one that can pan from start line to turn two) for Bourdais/Massa.

Correct. I think they are both really good drivers but whoever of the two wins this title race is going to be the most immature and inept champion the WDC has seen so far.

That's not to say they won't both mature on the track in seasons to come, but this year both Massa and Hamilton have been driving like absolute amateurs too too too many times.

I can think of a number of amateurs from the history of the sport who would have driven with far more care and respect than anyone on the grid at Fuji.

Doesn't leave a lot of hope for the rest of the field if the front two runners are that crap.

Bourdais wasn't being lapped but he wasn't racing for position as Massa had yet to stop.

Some examples of the most undisciplined driving in F1 history for all and sundry.
Equal blame to pass around.

..... and strangely enough, entertaining in a bizarre sort of way !!

The worrying moment for massa was that he ran wide wich left a gap for lewis to overtake.

A future wdc shouldnt do that.

What happened to Bernie?

That's cool, more please after races

He got pressured into an error.

The more I look at this, the more I think we are still missing key footage...

..again funny editorial decision to release this!

How does that change things? Just because there are still stops to come doesnt change the fact that they were racing. Much better to have kept him behind with a stop still to come than in front of him.

They've been looking on this forum.

Both massa's/hamilton's penalties were correct. Kimi had to change his line to avoid the kamikaze move by hamilton. Still would need a better view of the bourdais collision as it isn't really about what massa did, it's more about what bourdais did or didn't do. Still i think it is harsh to give the guy a penalty as i don't think it cost massa a place, and bourdais gained nothing from it. However the media/fans are now demanding penalties for any incident and to hell with common sense.

Keep in mind there is the view is slightly distorted. The Bourdais-Massa incident suggest that Bourdais was quite a bit along side Massa during the entry of the corner up till the apex where Massa got slightly ahead. Massa's front wheels were around Hamilton's rear wheels.

Sort of reminds me of the direction Indycar went in during the 1990s. Sullivan vs. Unser, Zanardi vs. Herta, Andretti vs. The World: the racing was brilliant and quite distasteful at the same time. And you'd be so conditioned by it, that you barely even realised that the Unsers, Villeneuves and Franchittis (and Kubicas?) were actually putting together very credible title challenges.

Better than Schumacher bullying the others into submission, which is probably the only alternative given the safety of modern cars, IMO.

Massa was half a car in front of Bourdais. Same like Hamilton/Massa fight.

I find it "strange" that we do not get Bourdais's onboard view... Aren't all F1 cars equipped with onboard cameras ? Was the footage "accidently" erased ?

Massa could avoid collision on both occasions IMHO, he was the one in control of the situation on both occasions... remember Raikkonen wasn't penalized for closing the door on Hamilton at Spa (which is entirely Ok of course as it was fair racing)

Massa probably knew he totally messed up that chicane and he could see Hamilton had a great run on him there...

What he probably didn't know is that Hamilton's front tires were square at that moment, so he took immense risk of fighting what was clean opportunistic overtaking from Hamilton. Lewis could have given even more room on the last part of that chicane but he wasn't required to do that, just like Kimi wasn't required to do that at Spa.

The footage was 'accidently' not shown on the FOM late special video release ;)

Good thinking from FOM/FIA, the footage basically confirms all 3 penalties were justified, so let the great unwashed see for themselves

My opinion after seeing the footage is Hamilton penalty, totally justified. Massa penalty totally justified infact one of the worst professional fouls I have seen in F1 since the days of Schumacher.
The Bourdais penalty is the worst penalty that has been seen in F1 since the Alonso penalty for supposedly blocking Massa at Monza 06.

On another note it is great to see F1.com doing this, hope it becomes a regular thing.

The FIA treats fans like idiots. If they are so sure why dont they give us onboard footage of starts where vehicles have been run wide so that we can compare such starts? How come we dont have bourdais onboard view so that we can see his position versus massa? Do they want to tell us that torro rossohave no onboard camera? Also the massa/bourdais video is from the side where you can't really judge...why dont they show bourdais angle? Basically they are trying to justify the bourdais/ massa penalty by first showing evidence of the first two penalties where especially with massa's you can't really argue. They know they manipulated the results so this bull***t of a release doesn,t change my opinion. They are corrupt, absolutely corrupt. We are not fools

High quality footage which makes it absolutely clear that

A) Hamilton touched nobody in the first corner, didn't deserve a penalty, and

B) Massa made no attempt to avoid hitting Hamilton, and

C) Bourdais was unfairly penalised.

I keep my opinion after seeing the footage
give all 3 of them, or none
they were consistent

let me guess...mclaren/hamilton fan, right?

Well said. Completely agree.

Let me guess... Ferrari/Massa fan, right?