In the spirit of all the dumb new threads with a poll that seem to have exploded onto this board during the last couple of races, I've decided to start one myself (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em).

I am amazed how many Ham fans seem to think that the chicane incident between Massa and Hamilton at Japan is somehow comparable to the chicane incident between Kimi and Hamilton at Spa (funny how Hamilton is always involved in incidents, eh? "Must be an FiA conspiracy" I can hear some people cry).

They see it as a justification for Lewis' chicane cutting antics when he gained an advantage, and that had he not cut the chicane then Kimi would have been nudged a la Hamilton in Japan.

In my mind, there is zero comparison. Entry conditions, corner geometry, relative car positioning and a million other reasons make me say that you cannot compare to the two incidents whatsoever.

What do you think?

I don't see why Hamilton fans should be complaining over this. Massa got penalized which means Massa potentially could've shorted that gap even further but because of this didn't.

Both penalties have been issued pretty much everyone here knows Massas mistake deserved a penalty but the Spa incident is a different story (I can see noth sides to this but this is finished now). To be honest I don't think the Hamilton fans will care too much about the Spa incident once and if Hamilton does become F1's youngest Champion this year.

Yes and No. The circumstances for the offending driver were similar before they made a critical decision. Lewis had tarmac runoff to escape to. Massa didnt and the result was what Lewis may have done had tarmac not been there.

The lesson: if you're going to cut a chicane, make sure you punt your rival off at the same time rather than letting him have his place back. The penalties are the same ...

imo massa should have been give a 10 second penalty stop for two irregularities

1st cutting the chicane and 2nd causing the accident

whilst hamilton a drive thru for 1st corner incident

as regards the poll - completely different especially conditions on track (wet in spa - dry in japan)

Your right there is no point trying to avoid a collision, the penalty is effectively less for hitting than for missing.

The two incidents are different, but they raise the same question – in what circumstances is the driver on the outside justified in going for the apex, forcing the other driver to either back off or crash?

The convention has long been that you needed to be over half a car in front to cut across or go for the apex. That’s why Kimi was justified at Spa. It was tight because he was only just over half a car in front, and had been less, but he was over half a car in front. If Hamilton had hit him, he would have been penalised as Massa was here. In this case, Massa’s front wheel hit Hamilton’s rear, so clearly Hamilton was well in front and he was entitled to take the apex. Massa may claim to have been out of control, but he made no apparent attempt to back off and has no real claim to avoid a penalty.

Of course, if you apply the half a car principle to the Massa/Bourdais crash, Massa caused the crash by cutting across and while he was ahead he was far less than half a car ahead. The decision to penalise Bourdais for that is unprecedented and takes some explaining away. Which is presumably why they aren’t trying to explain it.

Is this true?

Not comparable, Hamilton was smart enough to give up the corner, whereas Massa couldn't admit defeat and decided to punt the other competitor off.

I don't know if it's similar or not. :\

In Spa it was pretty fair racing. In Fuji Massa punted him, but it wasn't this blatant thing, you could see why Massa did what he did, he was in a non win situation once he ran wide. I don't think either situation was "dirty". It's just racing. Depends on what criteria your thinking of when trying to draw a comparison. Both were controversial so in that way they were comparable.

I voted yes - because the cars ended up being placed similarly, if not the cause for them being in that position... If Hamilton had not cut the chicane at Spa, the very same kind of incident would have likely happened.

Kimi was ahead of Hamilton turning into the chicane. Therefore Kimi had right to his line. Hamilton could have easily braked and followed him around. But he chose to cut the chicane. He chose to, and Kimi was never re-compensated for it.

Hamilton didn't give the lead back to Kimi, he re-positioned himself to make another attempt at turn 1 which the stewards felt was advantaged by cutting the chicane. Why Hamilton fans find it so hard to understand this is beyond me. Remember this folks, the issue wasn't about 'avoiding' to hit Kimi, it was his choice to cut the chicane and not give back the lead. If Hamilton was so concerned about the other drivers, he wouldn't pull off his unprofessional 'racing' like he did at Bahrain, France, Monza, Spa, and now at Fuji.

Completely different to what happened at Fuji. Massa was ahead and obviously he tried to make the corner like he rightly did, Hamilton would have done the same but you know he would have cut the corner and used it to his advantage like he did at Spa. To say Massa deliberatly hit him is rich coming from him. Hamilton could have given more room, Massa was on the kerbs and was reacting to oversteer (which some people have screenshot from the onboard to make it look like he's deliberatly turning into Hamilton, typical). To have avoided the penalty, Massa wouldn't have needed to cut the chicane,; he had time to brake harder and allow Hamilton ahead as he had priority on the racing line. He didn't. So penalty was issued.

Simple to me.

Take a look here http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php...103#post3355103

and please tell me at what point was Massa ahead of LH. As far as I can see he was behind the whole time even with the advantage of cutting the corner. Why exactly did he have priority to the racing line, and yet LH didnt in Spa?

*sigh*

Massa's car is infront. I don't know what pictures you are looking at. Massa is wide, but he's still infront - closer to the next left corner than Hamilton was. He obviously thought he could get to the next corner ahead of Hamilton. It was going to be tight, but he decided to follow the corner anyway. Hamilton rounded up better to it as he was in the normal racing line.

The only thing that's similar between these two incidents is that the offending driver is on the outside. But:

At Spa, Hamilton wasn't ahead of Kimi TURNING into the corner. Here, Massa cleary is. I never said Massa had priority ON THE RACING LINE, Massa is wide, he is not on the racing line, I said Hamilton was so your misunderstanding is your problem. Massa was ahead which is why he followed the corner. His judgement was fair enough there but he failed to handle the corner itself.

I'm not going to argue about it, I just wanted to express my opinion.

Are you blind, have you actually watched the video, have you bothered to check the link and looked at the screenshots. From the moment Massa made the mistake he was behind Hamilton, at no time was he in front, he is furthur behind Hamilton than Hamilton ever was in the Spa incident.

If you still insist he is in front then please look at the screenshots in the link provided above and tell me which one shows him in front.

note: car on the right is going faster and is on the prefered line.

Haha.

Yes, in that screenshot shown Massa is behind because Hamilton's on the preferred racing line as we've both already mentioned. But PRIOR that point, Massa was ahead entering the first corner of the chicane as shown in the other first screenshot of the pics Clatter referred me too. I'm not blind....

In the screenshot shown above, that's where I'm saying Massa should have braked and followed Hamilton and why he received the penalty. You don't need to cut the chicane to do so. That's also what Hamilton should have done at Spa, but he chose cut the chicane, he didn't want to follow Kimi on the exit, he intended to cut with the knowledge that he'd be running alongside him hence the advantage gained.

Understand me now? My opinion is a driver who has the correct line in chicane-related battling shouldn't have to yield (in this case Hamilton) unless the car on the outside (Massa) is well and truly ahead and can manage to approach the second corner of the chicane first. Massa was infront and believed he could make the corner first despite being off the preferred line. That's not my opinion, that's what Massa did. Fact. What's wrong and warranted the penalty was that he clearly didn't get a better run and Hamilton therefore had priority so Massa should have braked and followed. Compared to the Spa incident, Hamilton wasn't in the position Massa was in at Fuji. Massa was much further ahead. Hamilton wasn't at Spa, he was more or less behind Kimi (Kimi's front wheels ahead), so not only did Hamilton have less reason to cut the chicane, he could have easily followed Kimi more than Massa following Hamilton at Fuji. Massa had more reason to follow up to the corner at Fuji. But he also should have submitted instead of challenging because he didn't pull it off.

Oh yes, don't bother taking in a serious and coherant debate, just look at people's avatars to base your judgements on.

Go Atlas!

edit: too late, I quoted your ass. And just to piss you off, Kimi's already said it best in yesterday's press conference:

I deleted my post when I read the post which you must have been writing at the same time. Frankly, you made zero sense up to that point, were not reading clatters posts at all and I felt warranted.

As it is, you have my unreserved apology.

If made no sense, so why didn't you ask where? If I made zero sense then the rest of you likewise made any sense at all, comparing two different passing manouvres.

And what makes you think I wasn't reading clatters comment? I responded to it, and replied to it thoroughly, who are you to say I took no heed of it?


I know fanboyism is a huge part of Atlas but please reserve your prejudice next time. A few minutes later at least.

Also, I liked the username "slowinfastout" - perfectly describes Raikkonen's overtaking style. Opposite to Hamilton's ;) His big balls braking at turn 1 in Fuji is proof of that LOL oops, there goes my fangirlism.