exactly i agree

Interim rear wing? A wing that has some of the caracteristics of the "final" product, but not full functionality. Also the point of secrecy.
Well, im reaching.

It's all plausible.

Have any of the other teams taken 2008 wings to the tests?

STR took an 08 car. But that's it.

I had deliberately stayed away from the discussion about Mclaren rear-wing knowing fully well that they have the resources to come up with a winning car. The team seems to be extremely confident.

Anyway, this is testing...

I am yet to find released information that suggests any indication from Mclaren that they had developed a 2009 spec rear-wing that failed. On the contrary the car was launched with what looked like a place-holder for 2009 spec rear wing.

I don't see why people just can't accept what the team published.
It may indeed be true that there is not much room to play with on the rear-wing due to the new regulations but rear DF is not totally dependent on the rear-wing alone their has got to be a lot of integration with the rest of the aero. That is why these cars are sometimes referred to as packages!

I cant act like i know alot about F1...just really getting into the details but id say its really really early doors to know for sure what each team has under their sleeves for the season, or will come up with b4 the first race.

all the speculation on this site is fun though . I learn more bout f1 here, thats why i joined.

as for the new cars, it seems redbull has built a fast one.


@ Alonso n the usual 6tenths over Piquet

Maybe the car is 6Kg lighter...one thing for sure, Nelson P is not 0.6 slower than Alonso.

You are right, he is 0,8 sec slower

ooohhhh nnnoooooo please dont get that discussion in here

I'm not so sure.

What? You're arguing the rear wing is so constrained by regs it can't be developed to make any difference, but also that Mac have somehow designed a bad one?

And why you think any team is going to tell fans about the detailed strategy...

It's a place-holder as femi says, and part of a general interim package as f1rules says. And the 08 wing is representing the final 09 wing, a very good sign, as I've been saying.

yeah but it depends how you take the meaning

"waiting for a new high-downforce version."

Doesn't necessaryily mean they have one waiting in the wings so to speak, they might never get one.

They are trying to create a better rear wing with higher downforce or lower drag. We have seen in the past, how creative McLaren can be with the rear wing, their rear wing was never a simple one, most of them are curvy with slits everywhere. The current 2009 rear wing is still too simple compared to their previous wings. I'm sure that they have a new one in the line.

I think somebody saw the Renault live in the pits and vomited when the McLaren was passing by.

Well, time will tell. Until we know the facts we're just speculating.

have a read of what heikki says at TS. I think this car will change alot, particularly in the test before melbourne. Ive never seen mclaren so confident at a launch. It couldnt be because of what theyre doing right now. There must be something to come that is making them confident. We will see.

if you come accros some specific in on ts please share, thanks

can u just copy paste what he is saying on "TS"...wat is "TS"?

Bwahahaha

this is TS, a finish website, translate with google.

http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1

the thing that struck me was this part (badly translated), where he talks about developments, particulalry i think reffering to the test before melbourne.

"- I am reasonably satisfied, but the reality is that more speed is in the pipeline. We do not yet jahdanneet lap times, not even long for betting. We know that we could go faster.The most important thing is to focus on reliability and collect mileage katsastaaksemme of all components and systems to function.

- We made a few pit stops and a few start-drill, checked cooling, because it belonged to this test program. Prior to Melbourne will be a lot more performance.

- KERS work reliably. I drove all day at full power without any errors and without any problems. It is time to encouraging at this stage. "

of course every team will have developments before melbourne, but at least its something to hope for.

thanks a lot, the piece about kers is encouraring

A human translation:

"We used the '08 wing because we don't have a high downforce '09 wing ready. There are plenty of other evolution models coming before the season starts, and the first update is coming to the next tests."


"I'm reasonably happy with my laptimes, but the truth is that we have more speed in the bank. We didn't go after fast laptimes just yet, not even on the long stints. We know we could go faster. The most important thing at this stage is to focus on reliability and put some miles on all the parts and systems."


"It's not that difficult to get used to KERS. There's just a couple of things you need to do, as in press a few buttons during your lap. You learn it quickly and then it becomes routine. Already it feels quite natural to use KERS - and to adjust the front wing.

On every lap there are places where I wanted to push the KERS-button and some places where I wanted less wing. On the long stints adjusting the front wing felt quite easy, and I felt like I was pretty well on top of things and got the set-up as I like it.

KERS was reliable. I drove all day with full power without any mistakes or problems. That's quite encouracing at this stage."

Thanks

Nothing about braking stability being affected by kers, that's encouraging.

No one has disagreed with what I am saying more just ignored it completely.

What you guys are saying to me really makes no sense. But it's winter so it's not that important anyway I guess. From Melbourne onwards it starts getting important.

Heiki - "We used the '08 wing because we don't have a high downforce '09 wing ready."

Yes but why use 08 wing at all when you have a 09 wing? Unless using the current 09 wing creates bad tyre data (not enough temp for example) or some other type of bad data with suspension or something else and using the 08 one cures this problem. All the 6 other teams are managing fine without a "high downforce 09 wing". So it's the combination of the new cars chassis characteristics and it's requirement of a high downforce wing that would make more sense. Rather then simplisticly saying "It's a bad wing" :\ .

Its hard to agree with anyone because it's impossible to know the truth behind it. It's only speculation at this point.

Moving on from the 08 wing debacle, i''m actually glad we're testing in jerez with thhe sandstorms in bahrain. Ironic don't ya think.

Indeed it is. I'm glad McLaren chose Jerez, but easy to say that in hindsight.
I think time will tell on the mystery of the 08 wings as well.

Yeah and besides there hasn't seemed to be a furorre like when renault had 'problems'. I trust the team and their ability to produce a top notch car. I am becoming very wary of that red bull with vettel in it though. I can see him being a thorn in mclaren sides, much like kubica was in early 08.

Or proper question hasn't been asked. Anyway, if they've managed with braking stability problems, which is the main issue which needs to be solved if anyone want to produce lap-time advantage from KERS, that's a really good sign for them.

I'm looking forward to finding out how the teams have done it. In principle you would keep the electromotor working constantly throughout the braking, and dissipate the unstored energy. But 60 kW takes a lot of dissipating...

What have they done?

I've been saying that's the sensible way to do it, but I've no idea whether anyone is actually doing anything like that.

60kw isn't that much, really.
Its only a small fraction of the energy that the conventional brakes must dissipate.
And like the brakes, the 60kw is only applied intermittently, with decent intervals between.
If it is capped at 60kw charge and discharge, and the boost lasts like 6 seconds, then 6 seconds charging at the same rate is required. So you are only going to have to dump 60kw for the time each lap that you are on the brakes -beyond- 6 seconds.
So my feel is that the electric energy dissipater has to cope with an input rate of 60kw, but that that input might only have a 5% duty cycle. So, if you can carry some heat, you only need to dissipate it at an average rate of 60 x .05 making 3kw.
So, where do you store that heat as a buffer?
How about dumping the excess heat into the engine block, and very slightly increasing the engine cooling? If you could get away with it, it would barely show from the outside...


I think it was on the Renault steering wheel that there were adjusters for KERS charge and discharge (as well as the boost button). My expectation is that they were to adjust the KERS 'mapping' - probably more subtly than just the straight rate of charge and discharge.

Hamilton is still the fastest today, did he use the 2009 rear wing or 2008?

08 I believe.

This is getting seriously weird.

How can McLaren be SO off? Wind tunnel experiment went wrong?

When they are using their '09 wing, they are at least 2 seconds slower than Red Bull and Williams (and I could throw in Renault as well).

Programme: Lewis jumped into the car this morning, picking up where Heikki left off yesterday. He spent the morning concentrating on aero mapping and finding a good balance ahead of the afternoon’s long runs. The day was extremely productive and saw the team continue its work with its KERS programme. Lewis said: "Today’s test gave me the first opportunity to drive MP4-24 in warm, dry conditions – and I’m very encouraged by what I felt. The car feels strong, very similar to last year’s car, in fact. It doesn’t take long to get used to the new buttons in the cockpit [KERS & front-wing flaps] but the real test for everyone now is to understand the slick tyres ahead of the first race in Melbourne next month."

Well that's right, a braking event is only about 2 seconds or so, and kers will be charging to start with, so say they have to dissipate 60kW for 1 second. That's not a lot of energy, but they have to do it in real time, i.e. they need a 60kW heating element but then whatever they heat with it can cool over a longer period.

The engine block is interesting, but how would you heat it? Suppose they cast the ballast with heating elements in it? It wouldn't matter if that weakened it. 60kJ would raise 10kg of tungsten by only 46 degrees, acording to allmeasures.com

Then they'd have to cool it over the next what, 7 seconds? Hmmm.

Come on ATM_Andy, spill the beans

There are a number of quotes in this thread that state 'whilst McLaren wait for the new high-downforce 09 rear wing'.

Which means it's not finished yet.
Which means the other rear wing was much lower downforce.
Which would account for times.

Plus I think you are failing to point out that when running the 09 they are not 2 seconds slower then everyone else I believe

I highly doubt that the 08 wing is worth 2 secs over the 09 one, the cars are about 5 seconds slower that 08 but slicks give back a 2 seconds atleast. Maybe if the front aero was messed up, because that would mess up the whole flow, but since everyone thinks the rear wing is the problem I'm sceptical.

Who's that woman next to Dennis in the mediaplayer on the frontpage of this website?

What video?

Autosport TV's 12th Feb item - Ron Dennis on cost cutting

wats that stuff on the tyres of the mclaren...seem like just extra weight....what is its purpose?

Hamilton today tested a flatter nose compared to the more circular one the car had on until yesterday.

Interesting that autosport report "Hamilton sets 2009 cars pace at Jerez" and make no mention of the 08 wing at all. Non-issue according to autosport?

Source? And picture to confirm please. Ive looked at shots from yesterdays test and seen nothing new.

the only issue is that their first wing shouldve been good, and not have to build another one. Running a dodgy 08 wing thats not working properly on a car thats not been optimised for the use of such a rear wing, really is a non-issue.

The last time I remember McLaren using a rear wing not designed for that year's regulations on their new car was in 2004 with the MP4-19. And back then Kimi, like Heikki just a couple days back, told reporters that they know that they could go faster. Then, when they finally got their new rear wing for the 19, their lap times fell off the cliff and the wait for the B version began.

Having said that, I think that the 24's problem isn't only the rear wing as it has relatively little development room for sizable gains, but also the bulkiest rear end of the whole grid (so far) and the unorthodox front suspension which seems to have the design team scratching their heads (based on the frequent flow viz tests in that area).

Max with wig