I think he means that when a driver applies both longitudinal and lateral G to the tire, there is much more grip ie much more area available in those areas of the friction ellipse.

If you watch the G-meter on TV, you'll see that drivers can brake at close to 5G. Then the moment they start applying any lateral G they have to ease off the brakes dramatically.

So for those drivers who like stomp on the brakes hard while guiding the car toward the apex, or for so-called "trail-braking", they will find a lot more grip for that purpose.

partly why they haveto ease off is they get 1g braking just from the drag of the car at high speed
then as they slow down the downforce goes so less grip..

Yep that's true, but the you see the G drop off when diagonal G is applied not only in slow corners, but medium speed ones as well. Watching the G-meter, you'd expect the accelerometer to be farther away from the centre, and it's just not. When the G approaches horizontal, the G-meter ball goes further out again. It's just the diagonal stuff that's less than you'd expect. The first corner in Canada is a good example of what I'm talking about (or maybe it's the second, I dunno. I'm talking about the slowing left-hander before the really slow right hairpin). Go in too hot and you'll spin even if you stay on the rubber tracks. These new bridgestone control tires make it difficult to attack those corners hard, even with proper brake balance.

And I guess what Pedro is saying also applies to the throttle on the throttle sooner and more aggressively and still have grip. Hey, maybe we WILL see some power-oversteer this season?!?!

"One year ago: Ralf has eyes on McLaren seat"



Sorry, this is a completely pointless post, but it gave me a smile on Autosport's main page today.

Just think he could have been World Champ!!! I wander how he'd of faird in comparason to Heikki?!

Sorry to keep banging the same drum, but its the brakes that need progression/balance/minimum upset.

The power delivery is just push the button to fire.
If you are limited by rear wheel traction grip as to how much throttle you can employ, pressing the boost button isn't going to do a lot of good... Hence, I think KERS boost is most likely to be employed in higher gears, with the car effectively straight.
It might be possible (SECU etc permitting) to use KERS power to "broaden the power band" -- which would be particularly helpful at the start. That's one way KERS is used in road 'hybrids'. Driving the Honda Insight, the hybrid power unit is surprisingly 'torquey' - it doesn't feel like less than 1 litre. This is the only way I can see KERS power being useful at the start; Ross Braun's comments were a but puzzling because the simple-minded view is that pressing the button in a low gear should just mean instant wheelspin...

KERS charging is a rear wheel (for 2009) braking load.
It needs to be balanced in, to balance the car and avoid rear-wheel-locking.
And once the KERS store is full, the extra rear braking isn't there, so you are unbalanced.
Sure, the driver can tweak the brake balance, but he isn't in control of when the store goes full and shuts off. It would be bound to happen when the brakes were being used, so sometime there's certain to be a nasty transient to catch.
I've already suggested that the way to approach this should be to make the "electric braking" full time alongside the mechanical brakes, and switch the electric energy route between charging the store and dumping the surplus - needing an "electric radiator" - but providing a pretty constant brake load, regardless of the state of charge of the KERS store, allowing the car to be better balanced on the brakes more of the time.
Of course, if any team should take up my idea, a very discreet spot of hospitality would be all the acknowledgement I seek !

Generally, the cooling requirement indicates system inefficiencies - energy wastage. Ferrari seem to be heading for water cooling of the KERS components because of their mounting location - direct air cooling would be impractical with the system so well buried.
So why do Ferrari think that location 'best'? My hunch is that that location makes the system more easily an "optional installation". Any other ideas why they would choose to hide it away so deeply?
I am presuming that the BMW's sidepod grilles (inboard of the big intakes) must be for some form of cooling for part of the KERS installation, quite likely the energy store (which is probably batteries).

I wouldn't take that as gospel. The huge air snorkel they've been testing with would suggest otherwise. The other thing is that while Gazzetta comes out with some good information, ferrari has been known to feed them rubbish.

Sure there's bound to be lots of disinformation, but the MM boxes shown in public did have what looked like hose connections...
... however, that sort of "snorkel" (which, viewed from the rear, seemed to have a straight through exit) just might be needed for the type of "electric radiator" I have mentioned previously as an energy dump from the "electric brake"...

if it is water cooled that snorkel thing might just be a housing for a separate rad no????

That was my assumption too.

Also I wondered if water cooling allows them to push the batteries harder than with air cooling.

Maybe Merc and BMW have them water cooled too but you just cant see as it's in the side pods?

It's amazing how much we don't know

Possibly, I was thinking, the MM batteries aren't quite as good as Merc's, and generate more heat for the same performance? I somehow didn't get the feel of water cooling from ATM_Andy's snippet - maybe more spread out with little heatsinks in the sidepod or something? Don't know though.

If it were me I'd be nervous of immersing those kilovolts in water with loads of connections cell to cell, and entrusting everything to seals with all that vibration, temperature changes and accident g's....

if it was on a seporate system i guess you could vary the pump speed to keep the batteries in their temperature sweetspot, as for example, cold batteries are nearly useless.... you could do the same with airflow, but i think moveable areo devices are banned

My car has moving baffles in-front of the radiator they open and close to allow the car to heat up/cool down more efficiency. I wander if they (or somthing like them) are allowed or if they are clasified as moving aero...

According to this paper the best temperature range for lithium ion batteries is -10 to +50C.

Just to point out a question from a previous point on the location of the McLaren KERS system. There was a picture on the gpupdate website, from last Wednesday's test showing an opening behind the high cockpit sides. I'm not sure if i can post the picture so I won't because I'm a newbie here and don't want to throw my account away for not following protocol. Any if the picture does hint to the location then I think McLaren have very cleverly packaged their KERS.

If your talking about the picture on the previous page, thats just the fuel tank opening. If you go back a page you will see the picture. Im pretty sure their kers is buried in their sidepods behind the radiators or something, wherever it is, it isnt visible, far ahead of all other teams if it is indeed that small and tightly packaged.

Do Mercedes have a lot of experience with hybrid powered road cars?

They had just presented their hybrid S-Class, and as far as I understand its hybrid power is very similar to KERS - batteries and an electric engine-generator. By the way - at the same time BMW presented their hybrid car of 7 series and they use the same system. System was designed in cooperation between MB, BMW and Continental. So may be MacLaren and BMW will be using the same KERS?

No.

No it's not the same picture, the one on the gpupdate website shows an opening behind the drivers helmet on the left side of the car not the right where the aforementioned fuel tank opening is.

well whats the link to the picture? you wont get banned for linking people to a picture.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/photolarge.php?p...5937&catID=3664

If this is it then it's just the fuel opening.

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/115937.jpg

This one?? Thats the fuel filler....

There is not a lot we know. What we do know is that KERS consists of three main components:

1) the motor-generator, the only KERS component that interfaces directly with the engine,
2) the energy storage system (flywheel, Li-Ion batteries or capacitors),
3) the KCU (KERS Control Unit)

These components do not have to be in the same location and I gather all of these components require different levels of cooling.

1) Motor-generator:
I gather the motor-generator requires the most cooling. It's possible McLaren revised their radiator setup on their interim car, to also cool the motor-generator, whereas Ferrari did not bother and added a separate small radiator to cool the motor-generator, as an interim solution.
Magneti Marelli revealed this watercooled electric motor-generator recently (although I don't believe this one is F1 spec).

(source:www.racecar-engineering.com)

2) Energy-storage system:
No one knows whether McLaren is running a flywheel, Li-Ion batteries or Capacitors. But in case of Li-Ion batteries, I believe its little battery packs located in several locations in the car. So it won't be all in one place. This has been confirmed by Pat Symmonds for Renault

I think these lumps of batteries have less cooling requirements and can do with air cooling rather than water cooling. And because packages of batteries will be stored in various locations in the car, I don't think watercooling is a viable option.

Possibly the same applies for capacitors. Although capacitors are more efficient than batteries and produce less heat.

3) KCU:
In the Peugeot 908HY KERS Le Mans prototype, the KCU (which controls of energy between the motor-generator and the energy storage system) is located in the rear part of the front left wing. I am also assuming air cooling here via heatsinks.

Nice post Timstr11. I hadn't realised the motor-generator needs so much cooling.

I get the impression that supercaps are still too bulky ATM. Though in the beginning I thought Honda would use them.

On the battery cooling I seem to remember reading that there's a trade-off between how much battery capacity they install and how much heat it disipates, so they can use a small battery and drive it hard with a lot of cooling, or a bigger one with less cooling.

The commercially viable ones are bulky. But there's a lot going in terms of research on nanoscale or nanotube capacitors, which have a hugely improved energy density. Even though it is not commercially viable yet, it could be viable for application in F1 already. Than it's more about which teams have access to this technology.

Thats the one, but isn't the fuel filler on the other side. Anyway i guess that makes McLaren's KERS even more of a secret.

nah thats the fuel filler dude...

Fuel filler can be on either side depending on the pit layout.

yes they have one either side cos not every track is the same, for example you have monaco and spain, opposite sides.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=36668

McLaren drivers prepare for winter training camp

01/12/2008

Engineers from the McLaren team are busily preparing for the 2009 season in Woking, Brixworth and Stuttgart. Meanwhile, the test team has been readying two cars for December outings to Jerez, Spain, and the new Autodromo Internacional do Algarve circuit in Portugal.

Elsewhere, Lewis Hamilton, Heikki Kovalainen, Pedro de la Rosa and Gary Paffett are preparing for an outing of a different kind; limbering up for a five-day pre-season training camp at the Kourtane Sports Institute in western Finland.

The human performance partner of the McLaren team, Kourtane has helped train some of the world's top athletes, including Finland's Olympic hopefuls, for more than 40 years. The training camp also acts as a useful team-building exercise, with mechanics and engineers joining the drivers for group exercises and tests at the Kuortane campus.

"Travelling to Finland for our winter training camp is one of the best weeks of the year for me," said Hamilton, "it feels like you're miles from anywhere and totally cut off from the outside world. It allows me to focus solely on my training, which is great.

"It's certainly not an easy week: Finland in the winter is cold and icy and we're pushed hard for day after day. We spend the first part of the week doing tests to monitor our core strength and flexibility and spend the rest of the time building on specific exercises that will help us once we're back in the car.

"After Brazil, it's good to get a proper rest because it's the one time of the year when you can relax your training a little. But Finland is when it all starts again in earnest. Brazil already seems a long time ago and I'm now focusing 100 per cent on 2009. I had my seat-fitting at MTC earlier this month and while the plan at the moment is to start testing in January, I'm really keen to get going.

"After Finland, I'm looking forward to a couple of big events in the UK. I'll be attending the Race of Champions and the BBC Sports Personality of the Year event. They're all fantastic events and they give me a lot of energy because I get to spend time with some of my peers in a relaxed environment and also to meet the British fans, who are always fantastic.

"Before Christmas, I plan to take a holiday and return fresh and positive to kickstart our winter test programme with the MP4-24. I've already had a close look at the new car and the engineers have explained the philosophy behind it and just how different things will be next year.

"I've been watching testing with a lot of interest, I think the new cars will make next year's championship wide open and I'm really looking forward to tackling the new regulations."

"The end of the season is a very important time for me," added Kovalainen. "It's the best time of the year to properly rest and recharge before everything begins again. That's why it's so important for your fitness. It's vital to start the year with very good core fitness because it's difficult to train as much as you'd like during the season. That means the basic fitness level you reach over the winter is what keeps you going for much of the year.

"That's why our training camp in Seinajoki is so important: it's just for the team and there are no distractions. It's a hard schedule; up early, and training all day - often outside in the cold - but it's always fun. Of course, it helps that it's in my home country of Finland, which makes it especially relaxing and rewarding for me.

"For me, the 2009 season started as soon as I got home from Brazil. I spent two days at the McLaren Technology Centre having my seat-fitting in the 2009 chassis - which already looks like a very promising car for next year, I went to Stars & Cars in Stuttgart, then I went on a short holiday.

"After the training camp, I'm really looking forward to getting back in the car after a month out of the cockpit. I'm testing in Jerez and Portimao later this month and then preparing over Christmas for my first taste of the MP4-24.

"For me, 2009 can't start soon enough and I'm really looking forward to beginning I'm really looking to getting back in the car and understanding how the new regulations will affect the drivers. I can't wait to get started."

at "human performance partner"

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ronspeak.php

Thanks for clearing that up for me and apologies for the mistake. Really can't wait for January to see the 09 cars, because for me KERS is the most interesting aspect as far as efficiency of design go.

Its nice that Lewis enjoys our gloomy country :up:Im depressed because all the snow is gone from south-finland

dont cry mursuka

your snows just came for a holiday in scotland, it will be back soon enough

You stole my snow! Its just so depressing that 10 years ago there was snow for 2 months in winter And now we are lucky if we get 2 weeks

The MP4-24 is to be ready on the 16th of January.

yep
http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/mclaren-...php?article=206

Looks very nice... It seems there will be an end of january test that the first new cars will gon on head to head.

yes this is pretty good news, that we have the new car ready so soon, with the rule changes and all

RIP Ronspeak - Hello Buddha?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72313

He's getting good at this.

Haug: ''Our Formula 1 engagement has a solid financial basis and is being financed for the greatest part by our sponsors. Mercedes-Benz' contribution is a cost efficient one and the media- and public 'echo' that has been generated by the past season and Hamilton's title, is worth the expenditures we made multiple times.''

''Honda's withdrawal is very sad. That only goes to show how important the cost cutting measures are which we have plead for five years ago and which, so far have only been converted to a small extent.''

''The FOTA is working very hard on cost cutting measures and by doing so we must achieve at least a 50% reduction of the expenditures.''

Heikki, Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivää, kauan eläköön Suomi

Apperantly Lenovo will tomorrow be presented as a McLaren sponsor. They've been with Williams for the past two years.

Thats a big gain for McLaren id of thought!! Prob feeling the benefits for having the WDC

Lenovo logo may not even appear on the car, just like when FedEx joined macca from Williams, and back then At&t left to Williams, I wonder if this time will happen the same with one of the McLaren's sponsors

Jeez though i love mclaren, iam sad that Lenovo has left williams when they can least afford it. Hope williams will survive.

williams said they had 90% of their operating budget in place didnt they?