This is totally new wing, aren't those endplates painted in black?

Mclaren have one of these coming

If you say so.

Old front wing:



New:

I posted this:

Quotes from Toyota are interesting. Rosberg said something similar recently (we don't feel like we're slower than Mclaren, quite the opposite).
And it's not about 2008-2009 d/f levels regarding the wing and diffusers. You can put a bit more angle on 2009 wing and have more downforce or run a 2008 Monza style wing and be below 2009 downforce levels. It's more about the puzzling fact team sticking to 2008 wings with so little time to go - in best case scenario, this is their plan of developing the 2009 wing+diff. But, as I said, It's gonna leave them with a very short time to fix problems and tune the car equipped in race-ready package. Very risky, but it might pay off if it's done without mistakes.
In non-best-case-scenario, and this is what is going on imo, they're in troubles, and it's rather a question of how big the troubles are than whether they really occur. Using 2008 wing so late suggest to me they do indeed plan a revolutionary change but it also suggest that they got the previous revolutionary change (switching to 2009 aero regs) very wrong, otherwise they would be running 2009 wings as everyone else does - they're not doing it, so obviously data gathered with 2008 wing still is more meaningful for them than the 2009 one. Honestly, I find it hard to believe to could have screwed up 2009 aero so much it's better to go back to basics and develop a new solution, but damn, this is what appears to be going on. With 'appears' being the key word, obviously. Plus, if it was their plain to carry on with the 2008 wing, they could have said that. Instead I get a slightly Honda-pre2007-ish vibe from them.

In the testing thread instead of this one.

Apologies about this, I didn't check all news items rigorously until this week's test: Could someone tell me simply how many different 09 rear wings McLaren have had on the car/used since the launch? I know they've used the 08 one, obviously.

Three.

http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php...522#post3494522

Right, so Hamilton destroyed the 2008 type rear wing in this test.

Hopefully this will mean, at long last, that they'll have to spend the rest of the tests running the 2009 wing and we might have a better idea of where they stand in relation to the competition. Maybe this will force them to start concentrating on getting to the bottom of the car's pace rather than fiddling about with KERS wet weather profiles and 2010 tyres.

I really hope that they don't have a spare 2008 wing knocking about because all this uncertainty is starting to grate. The car spent 18 months in gestation and so far it looks like it's going to be lapped at the races and with no in-season testing there's not much chance of a b-spec being commissioned. They need to spend the next two tests grooming a race car rather than playing with a test bed. Whatever secrets they might be hiding surely can't be worth over a second a lap in pace straight out of the box....

Spanish media apparently said that McLaren was improving in terms of long stints.

Will McLaren reveal its diffuser/wing combo at Barca next week? I mean, they'll have to at some points... (before the season starts)

Who says that this magic combo even exists ?

Thanks.

BTW all this talk about KERS, shorter races and other nonsense made me think McLaren could be the only car to have a large fuel tank capacity, plus the option of using KERS... that combination alone might win them races if they are anywhere close to the pace of the others which they will be..

Magic combo? No-one with a moderate mind.


But who says they will use 08 wing on the first race too?

And who says the current diffuser having an infill intake fitted to it (which decrease d/f) won't be revised till the first race?

The combo is coming, I'm sure about it, the question only, how good it will be.

Earlier in this thread some folks were claiming/guessing that Mclaren uses 2008 wing cause cause their final 2009 wing+diff will be as good as the 2008 one, with the reason for not using in in the test being their will to hide it from other teams. So it is a bit magical/mythological in content of this tread. It always sounded like total BS to me, anyway.

That's not what was being said at all... the 2008 wing simply has more capacity so it offers the opportunity to do more than any 2009 wing ever will, simple as that..

Nobody is making direct comparisons between the full 2009 package and 'the 2008 wing'...

'as good as the 2008 one': now THAT is total BS..

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, this is what some people were saying here earlier on.

You do understand what I meant though? Why do you choose to comment on the worst possible interpretation?

Now THIS is an interesting point (all this "nervous-nelly" talk gets old - this is F1, you're supposed to be anxious).

You may be onto something. If you take your two points (a) large tank (b) KERS, and add the following:
© Suspension that is soft on the tires (this could be why they can't get them warm, furthermore slicks don't deteriorate as fast).
(d) New aero which allows you to follow and pass slower cars that are in front
(e) New, smaller, rear wing (less drag)
(f) New weight-bias - NOTE: (I don't know how this affects tires on long runs - any input appreciated)

This may mean that McLaren's grand strategy for 2009 is to be able to run long on the first stint, perhaps stretching for one-stoppers. Good idea Slowinfastout - this is why I like these boards - any corrections/input appreciated.

Cause someone asked about it. See post 2210.

Hi-Res view new front wing.

People was giving reasoning to understand what was going on, and spare me for being picky, but people still not know whats going on including yourself.

They might be very bad, who knows, I doubt even the other teams, fans are jumping around like they are on fire, the ones that seem calm about it seem to be the ones with the most knowledge, Andy and Killfile.

We still don't understand each others I'm afraid.. I'm not sure about the existence of a 'magic' 2009 wing + 2009 diffuser combo, but the point remains that McLaren are seemingly using the 2008 wing and its greater capacity to simulate the job the 2009 wing will do PLUS the job of something else aero related (most likely the diffuser heh..)

Saying the final package will be as good as the 2008 one would be total bollocks, but the explanation above makes perfect sense to me..

You are right that no one knows whats really going on. And that includes Andy and Killfile. Just cuz you like that they're calm about it doesn't mean they have more knowledge or are any more correct than somebody else.

Well... I will hazard a guess Andy does know whats going on ;)

Well I don't think McLaren will have any significant edge on fuel-capacity over the teams not using KERS, KERS is supposedly the edge over those teams.

They definitely might have better fuel-capacity than the teams who opted to put their KERS stuff in the fuel tank instead of the sidepods..

The thing that remains an unknown is if KERS is really faster... if they can't qualify well with their heavy car in qualifying then that might void any advantage gained by 1 stoppers as they will be stuck in the midpack or something..

Where did you hear that slicks dont wear as fast as grooves?

Is Andy = AFCA?

If so, then I take it back as far as he goes.

My point was really that you cant judge who is more correct than somebody else just because you like how they're reacting.

AFAIK, AFCA isn't an insider but ATM_Andy is..

It's not like they are the fastest thing out there even with the 2008 wing

But that's not the point of testing either..

I think his point is that if the times done with the 2008 rear wing are representative of what we can expect with the 2009 rear wing/new diffuser, then the times still are a bit worrying.

I know its testing and all, but when your favorite team isn't near the top at most tests, its at least cause for a little concern. If they were at the top in almost all of the tests, I dont expect we'd hear people saying, "Oh, its just testing, we have no idea how good they'll really be". People would rightfully start assuming that they were indeed that quick.

Excellent post. If there is a flaw in your arguement it is this. Renault were double world champions in 2005 and 2006. They were at the top of the game at this point and arguably more dominant than Mclaren were last year. Yet they still screwed up big time the year after winning the championship. Past performance is not an indicator of future performance, especially in F1.

You're forgetting the big downfall of the renault team, the pull out of Mitchelin

Ferrari 2004/2005 aswell.

in Ferrari's 2005 and Renault's 2007 season there was massive rule changes!!
the same is happening here.....its even more massive and unprecedented rule change now!
so there is all the chance in the world for everything to go wrong

What is ATM_Andy's function? And who is his employer? Does he work for McLaren?
Hope he can shed some light on this weeks test. We seem to have gone from champions to backmarkers if this weeks testing would be the benchmark.

On top of that, we're starting to have reliability gremlins. All is not well for next season, I fear.. and the season is underway in 3 weeks

Edit: What surprises me is that the press seem to ignore the pretty poor pace McLaren have shown over the past weeks. Structural problems are usually picked up by the press pretty quickly.

Flow-vis on the new front wing.

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/119214.jpg

There are some pics of MP4-24 diffuser variations.


First solution.


Second solution with some outlet above.


And last one which they use on almost every test.

OR they are working on set-up and using the old wing as a benchmark , then looking at how the data translates is compared to the new wing

He has been posting a lot less recently...

I think I know why they use that in fitted panel in diffuser;



Probably they are trying to simulate Williams diffuser and making something similar.


Guess only

Can't blame him. The concentration of fools on this board is increasing every day.
AFCA's and ATM_Andy's contributions often don't get the recognition they deserve.

That third damper on the Williams is quite out in the open there

Actually I think it has to be equivalent, otherwise the car would be too different surely? If the rear downforce were very different the aero balance would be different, that would affect the transition from mechanical balance to aero and everything, the test car simply woudn't represent the race car.

The car has run so far with a very simple single-deck diffuser + 08 wing, they have to be replaced by a double-decker diffuser + 09 wing, and they have to provide the same downforce, that is the only thing that malkes sense.

Meawhile I'm wondering what happens to all the air going into the sidepods through those huge apertures. Mac seem to have gone from needing the least cooling to needing the most. I know there's kers but still. Unless they don't do cooling with all of it, a straight-through tube in that bulky shape and it still has its energy when it exits into the diffuser...

The point I'm trying to make is that McLaren aren't running the 2008 wing because there is something wrong with the 2009 one... I'm running out of ways to express it...

It was in response to this (the bold part) :



thats simply faulty reasoning... compare it to what killfile said, which sounds quite reasonable to me:



That doesn't mean that what McLaren is doing must match the 2008 levels in any way, but it means they have to understand what the 2008 wing does quite well..

All good possible reasons, but it can not be part of the plan to run a year old wing three weeks before the 2009 season starts.
It is not a good sign, they should have been much further in development/comparisons than this.

It really looks like they're behind or they have a problem. But I'm not a tech expert.

With the new season so close and remaining test days limited it's very difficult to believe it is for any other reason than they have a problem. I really hope that it doesnt prove to be the case, but one should not ignore the obvious, painful as it may be.

Ah yes, I agree 100%, it's not 2008 levels of downforce, but a 2008 wing used at some lesser angle of attack or whatever - detuned. Anyway used in a planned way in combination with the simple diffuser.

Enkei I'm quite sure things are going to plan. Not that I'm an engineer either but I think they planned the Barca unveiling from the beginning, and were probably disappointed when Williams and Toyota went public with the double-decker concept, but stayed with their plan anyway. And maybe there's another trick or two on top .

Anyway I just don't believe that gorgeous front wing is going on a midlfield car.

I don't understand this, if there is a new better diffuser or aero trick yet to be fitted to the car, isn't it useful to use the 2008 wing, which is better by definition compared to the 2009 one, to still work on the basis of what will be that final package? ..with the added benefit of keeping it under wraps..

For instance, if it's like killfile said, and McLaren are already doing setup work and KERS fine tuning based on what will be the final package, which isn't even on the car yet, isn't that good?

Maybe the confusing part is that the 2008 aero is actually better than the 2009 one? This affords a new way of testing stuff when combined with reliable simulation capabilities...