So do you think I'm a "hater"? Read my posts again and tell me where the "hate" is?

It makes you wonder what is worse - the hater or the fanboy? Two sides of the same coin, I suppose.

I think McLaren were focused on KERS, reliabilty, and evaluating live aero data in recent tests instead of sheer performance! Performance will come when they introduced "Full 2009 spec". McLaren knew what they are doing, so have faith with the team.

And, there is no better way to enhance their CFD simulations than with live data.

You're probably right, I haven't seen a hires pic of it.

But I'm surprised that you didn't comment on my central suggestion, that McLaren's strange testing pattern might be explained by --
1 - concern that their simulation/tunnel data wasn't quite as close to track measurements as they want
2 - because something unexpected is making the flow to the high wing(s) differ from prediction
3 - therefore they have 'frozen' the rear aero while tackling the problem further forward
4 - and have pressed on principally with reliability/KERS tests while waiting for the aero simulation to be corrected


There's one school of thought that McLaren are totally confident in their simulation work and have a surprise diffuser and wing all ready to release, but are deliberately keeping it out of sight for now.

While others, (myself included), are wondering whether - if they really were that confident that they totally understood the car - they would then (at this rather late stage) be doing repeated flow vis work (which, as has been said, is a bit crude) and playing with that infamous 'birdcage' airflow measuring rig?

Yea, basically.

I think a great example is Alonso last year. Sure, it would have been great if he had a championship-capable car, but I dont think anyone can argue that it wasn't interesting, and actually refreshing, to see him duking it out in the midfield and clawing at the front when the opportunity arose. It shows a different side to a driver. Honestly, I think that 2008 gained a bit of Alonso's reputation back that he lost in 2007. I've even seen people who were Alonso-bashers in the past give him a good deal of credit for his performances last year. I think that a similar sort of season for Lewis would do his reputation some good, for Lewis fans and Lewis bashers alike.

Bingo!!

Even if this is the real case.....so what? It's the matter of how quick fixing it! How many engineers do McLaren and Mercedes have?

700+

No clue whatsoever on how many engineers they have but I hope they are working their socks off to sort it out.

the funny thing is if u already saw Alonso's racing when he won the WDC, then his performance last year when his car was only half decent isnt no surprise....he is a top driver and that never changed even in 07. we only saw a diff. side of his personality in 07 which i think wasnt good. but doesn't change the fact that he is a top driver...if anything only proved Hamilton was the real deal.

so the fact is, if u put LH or any other top driver in a midfield car, there should be doubts he/she will push it to the limits. how much the said driver will extract from the car, we never can tell...only speculate.


all im saying is ideally, no talented driver should be forced to underachieve bcos of piece of shit machinery.


a football analogy to what you guys are saying will be put a player like Messi in e.g. Mallorca n now we can see how good he is by how much he improves the team. duh. obviously he will improve the team, but the sport as a loses a spectacle.

All we know come a couple of weeks time, theres going to be hell of a lot of red faces arounds

....we just don't which side is going to be blushing yet.
until something new comes to light, for the last week everyones just being treading the same old ground

about Macca's "problem", could it be mechanical, rahter than aero? their front suspencion is what's notably different from other teams. its arms are placed very steep angle, i wonder if it suits slicks/BS.

It's possible that there may be a problem with their simulation data not lining up with real life, but you'd expect to see more running if that was the case. They'd be using every Km they could find to try and fix the problem now, rather than the (if anything) rather relaxed attitude we've seen so far.

As I've said, I doubt that Mclaren have a secret wing, it's more likely a Williams/Toyota style clever diffuser. Running with the 08 wing is just their way of calibrating their KERS load/unload maps with the right levels of rear end grip. They could have taken the same approach as other teams and just used more angle on the rear wing, but Mclaren have always had a unique approach to things.



Mclaren have the most advanced simulation capacity on the grid, so it's not surprising that they think it could be a huge advantage with no in-season testing allowed. The best way to leverage this advantage is to make sure it's as accurate as possible now. The flow-vis and anemometer grid work isn't anything new - they did the same kind of measurements last year, but in a wind tunnel where we couldn't see it. Full-scale tunnel work is banned now, so they have to do these calibration runs on the track now.

So, in conclusion, Mclaren may have a problem, but their testing pattern doesn't really give an indication either way. The only time we'll know is Q1 at Melbourne.

Interesting theory, but if that is the case, I can't see the need for all the work with flow vis. They would be looking at tyre wear.

No, it wasn't really a surprise per say, but the point is that its interesting and sometimes refreshing. For me, I found more to praise Alonso for in 2008 than in many other of his years. No one could argue that his results were simply down to the Michelin tires, there was no accusations of him being a 'cruise & collect' driver and it was further evidence that Alonso truly can make a difference in a team's development.

Again, no one is arguing that Lewis being in competitive machinery wouldn't be a great thing. The point is that it wouldn't be such a *bad* thing for him if he were to be something a bit less competitive. Schumacher's reputation as one of the most complete drivers of all time wouldn't exist had he never driven less competitive machinery, in my opinion.

I understand how many of you are going to strongly disagree about this, mainly because many of you are obviously big Lewis/Mclaren fans, and thats fair. Its easier to see it like this when you're speaking of drivers that you're not a huge supporter of. Everyone wants to see their favorite driver/team winning.

Yeah, and he made many stupid things in those situations. Driving in inferior car in traffic (and whole racecraft which comes with it) is the ultimate test for true champions. Remember Alonso in Minardi or Senna in Lotus?

The thing is time and memory is a wonderful thing, as you say MS has this reputation, but he never had uncompetitive machinery that many times, and also he never always shone when doing so, as with Alonso last year in the early season he didn't do that well or shine in the Renault, it was only when the Renault began to improve and they tinkered with the engine more that he enhanced his reputation.

And, of the three, LH, FA and MS, Lewis is the only one that drives the MP4-24

Don't care if Lewis is good in a midfield car, midfield cars don't win championship.
I don't understand why people want to see top drivers in uncompetitive cars. If you want a great WDC championship fight, you want to see the best drivers in competitive cars.

I think at its most basic level, the thinking is to do with fans of other teams miffed at him not starting in a low level car and seem to think he still got to pay his dues.

Fans of him and his team couldn't care less about that aslongs as he's winning.

thats the point ....there will be no one to compare him in absolute terms with except his teammate... everything else will be conjecture and fanboy/hater speculation.


about the selective memory thing, people tend to overdo the Alonso effect, he didnt do well either when his car was totally shite....Piquet got podium b4 him last season. not to say the 6tenths isnt there though:lol:


so just give all the top drivers competitive cars and let them duke it out for the wins, that will be the real fun.


i will hate to see homogeneous cars on an f1 grid like Mosley wants...but one thing that will finally be able to give the fans is a near direct comparison of f1 driver ability.

More running?

I was thinking that for McLaren, it'd be a matter of getting their simulations to align with what they've already measured from their various on-track high wing trials.
Other teams might try to sort it out on-track, but wouldn't McLaren be concentrating on fixing the computer modelling? That way, they'd be in a position to go forward and use their simulations to correctly design the aero, rather than having something that might work effectively, but didn't in the way the computer predicted.

If that were the case, the people under pressure wouldn't be the crew at the track.

Didn't someone say that the drivers were putting in unusually long hours driving the simulator?
'More running" if there was a real problem... hmmmm.


Absolutely agreed, that it won't be until Melbourne that anyone really knows where they are in comparison to the others.
Better get in some testing myself, recording stuff off the Red Button in the middle of the night!

yea thats where the bad blood lies

Malaysia 07 showed amazing race craft from Hamilton, what are you talking about? Or what about Silverstone 07 where he was keeping the Ferrari of Raikkonen behind him which was clearly faster without making a driving error?

You're talking about the midfield pack? Or lapping backmarkers?

Alot of drivers of his little experience would've cracked in some of the situations he's experienced. And I don't remember either Alonso or Senna while driving for Minardi or Lotus respectively challenging for the title on a regular basis, they simply didn't have that sort of pressure so early in their careers. I'm not sure why you brought up those two inthe first place. It does seem like you have it in for Hamilton alot of the time though, and I think it's sad considering he's only been in F1 for two seasons, I believe you're making very unfair judgements without thinking them through properly. I suggest YOU reserve your judgement for a few years at the very least.

Wrong. For one, MS nearly always shone in uncompetitive machinery. And by 'uncompetitive', I mean a car that definitely isn't a top car. Which would include 92, 93, 96, 97, 98, 99, and 05. Thats 7 seasons, and bar some races in 2005, its hard to argue that he wasn't brilliant 95% of the time in these years.

And I disagree that Alonso wasn't impressive in early 08. It was clear the car was a dog and you could literally see how Alonso was grabbing that car by the scruff of the neck and dragging it up to positions that I certainly didn't expect to see it in. I know in another popular F1 forum(I wasn't around here then), there was quite a bit of praise around that time for him, even by many of his detractors from 07. Maybe you didn't see it, but I think plenty of others did. The improvement late in the season and Alonso's wins were mere icing on the cake.

Again, I dont expect you to want to see Lewis in an uncompetitive car as you're obviously a Lewis/Mclaren fan, but I also dont think its fair to throw baseless accusations at us when we're providing perfectly reasonable arguments for our thoughts.

You know that's the point. Maybe you can't imagine it (because you follow F1 since Hamilton arrived?) but YES, you can spot good drivers driving for worst cars in the grid. Not necessary guys winning races are the best on the grid. And 2008 was one of the best examples of it. That's how it was with Alonso in Minardi - his best finish position was 10th but it was like winning several races in McLaren or Ferrari.

I'll wait with my judgement about Hamilton untill he gets inferior car. So far I've seen his several times in the situation when he had to fight in the midfield (though he always had faster car then the guys around him), and he screwed up many times. But you know, he didn't have such experience, he needs to get that 5th car on the grid to learn it.

Once again - best drivers not necessary win races and championships.

That all depends on what you term uncompetitive machinery, a car that can challenge for the top end of the grid I don't call uncompetitive, it might not be the best but then the McLaren was behind Ferrari last year, I never said he didn't do well in them, but in every race he never always excelled, as with Alonso last year, he had races where he wasn't competitive

By the same token, if someone doesn't agree with you there is also no need to start getting insulting.

Maybe a good idea, is to do what we others fans do at thats hoping for a good car for their driver so that he can compete, without having to resort wishing bad on a driver so that he can live up to mythical guidelines set by non-fans.

Last season the KovaLaren was a midfield car. Only the McLewis was a top car. So go figure.

This is getting boring, antimclewis fans wish the McLaren into the midfield. :yawn:

McLaren will be where it deserves to be, and Lewis will drive the sh*t out of it wherever it'll be.

For one, I have never insulted you, so I'm not sure what the need for that comment was.

And I described what I meant by 'uncompetitive machinery', didn't I? Its a bit irrelevant to the discussion to tell me what *you* think the term means cuz the point of me even describing what I meant by that was so you can get a picture of what *I* mean when I say it, so we can further the debate without arguing semantics.

And I never said that they excelled in *every* race. But the point is that they did excel overall.

And I'm not 'wishing bad' on Lewis or Mclaren. I really think you're misunderstanding everything I'm saying, or are, as I suspect, already thinking I have some other, deep-down, alterior motives and are arguing from that stance even though I've done nothing to suggest that is the case. I've repeatedly said that it'd be great to have Lewis in a top car, and I've repeatedly said it would have been great for Alonso to have been in a top car last year, too. Its just that it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Lewis had a season or two(whenever, doesn't matter if its this year or not) in uncompetitive machinery, just like I think it was actually a good thing for Alonso and MS to have had seasons like that.

Why are you people clogging up this thread with rubbish. This thread is about the MP4-24 and therefore has nothing to do with personalities. Best to save the Alonso is better than Hamilton for another thread.

So, where were we.

Well we certainly weren't talking about who's better, Alonso or Lewis......

But yes, I get that we've gone well off-topic here, I apologize for that.

The funny thing is, that is ENTIRELY your opinion.

Your logic and reasoning is pretty strange I think. In fact I'll use it for one example, the 1993 British GP. Senna in an inferior McLaren held Prost and Schumacher back and while defending like a mad man, finished his tires and at the end ran out of fuel, and he's considered one of the best champions ever, but not according to your logic.

In ways, being in a midfield car isn't as hard as fighting for the championship, you're not under the spotlight constantly and people don't expect much from you.

Edit: I aplogize, I forgot who the culprit was.

You're absolutely right, they would be trying to work out where their computer models had gone wrong. However, they wouldn't be able to wait until the models had been fixed to resume development, they'd be running the cars as much as possible to try and get the data they need to get to the next design iteration.

Senna had right to make mistakes, also Lewis has right to make them. And I never said that if someone makes mistakes while fighting in midfield can't be great champion. The problem is LH screwed so many times while some problems appeared and he had to drive in midfield. He needs to learn to not make those mistakes if he wants to be considered as a great champion by me. And the best opportunity to do that is to drive a year or two in inferior car. That's all.

Oh, and didn't you know that every post of this board is just an opinion? Nothing more, nothing less.

OK, that's all for me, sorry for off topic. Let's get back to discussions about MP4-24.

http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/...ence-this-year/

Portimao

January 19
[QUOTE]Persistent wet weather hampered running for the majority of teams at Portimao. With much to be risked by running in the slippery conditions, the test team conducted a minimal on-track programme today, using a 2008-spec rear wing as a precautionary measure to increase downforce during the runs. Despite the weather, the team carried out a number of systems checks on the MP4-24 and will continue the programme tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

January 20
[QUOTE]Another day governed by the inclement weather, which grew so severe at times that running was considered to be dangerous. The team also decided to run using a 2008-spec rear wing as a precautionary measure to increase downforce. Nonetheless, Pedro was able to dodge the hailstorms to complete three long runs - including one 22-lap stint - to provide the team with further information on MP4-24's handling characteristics and componentry. Opting not to run with KERS, the team reported that the car performed without any mechanical or electronic problems today. Lewis joins the team tomorrow for his first run in MP4-24 and first official team driving duties since last November's Brazilian Grand Prix.[/QUOTE]

January 21
[QUOTE]Lewis returned to the cockpit for his first taste of the 2009 regulations and the team's new MP4-24 car. While the weather was markedly improved over the previous two days, the morning remained damp, requiring the continued use of an '08-spec rear wing and intermediate tyres. The team was briefly hampered at lunchtime by a precautionary engine systems shutdown, which was quickly rectified without the need to change the unit. In the afternoon, conditions sufficiently improved to allow an '09-spec rear wing and several sets of slicks to be bolted to the car, resulting in Lewis's best time of 1m30.242. Lewis said: "It was good to be back working with the team - it felt like I'd hardly been away because it was easy to slip back into the routine. It's amazing to think that, while I've been to Woking throughout the winter, I haven't properly driven a Formula 1 car since the Brazilian Grand Prix two months ago, but everything very quickly felt normal today. "This first test was all about just getting used to the new car and the new regulations and about giving my feedback to the engineers; it wasn't about setting a fast time. I'm pleased to report that the car feels good, we've made lots of progress over the winter and I'm looking forward to developing the car ahead of the Australian Grand Prix. "It's going to be an extremely busy winter. I've only been in the car for one day and our usual joblist for the weeks ahead is already enormous. With the limitations on testing during the season, and the few sessions we have over the next two months, this is going to be an intense time and absolutely critical for every team."[/QUOTE]

January 22
[QUOTE]A frustrating time for every team attending the final day of testing at Portimao after rainy and misty conditions forced the medical helicopter to remain grounded for the majority of the day. As a result, the track was declared closed in the interests of safety.

With conditions showing no sign of lifting, all running was finally cancelled at 16:15. Although Heikki Kovalainen was on hand for the session, the team felt it was more prudent to remain in the garage during the brief one-hour window between nine and 10am when the track was open.

The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team continues its winter testing programme in Jerez, Spain, on Feb 10 as it continues to hone its MP4-24 car ahead of the start of the 2009 season.[/QUOTE]

Jerez

February 10
[QUOTE]First running of MP4-24 in familiar conditions. Heikki ran a parallel programme, focusing on developing useful set-ups for the new car while also putting mileage on the car’s active KERS device. The team set itself prudent targets on both thermal and pressure thresholds in order to safeguard the machinery and this resulted in a few aborted runs when those thresholds were reached. Heikki felt the KERS device worked well but required further work in concert with the car’s set-up to produce optimum results. As much of the day’s work was exploratory, the team chose to undertake most of its work on a single set of dry tyres choosing only to switch to fresh rubber – and set its fastest lap – towards the end of the day. The team will continue with the same programme tomorrow and is optimistic of increasing the length of the runs as it increases its understanding of the KERS device.[/QUOTE]

February 11
[QUOTE]A continuation of yesterday’s programme, focusing on car set-up and putting miles on MP4-24’s KERS device. Fine weather meant Heikki was able to rack up 110 laps throughout the day, including several longer runs as both the team and driver became more comfortable with the car’s balance. Without a high-downforce 2009-spec rear wing, the team opted to run with a modified 2008 rear wing. The KERS programme ran smoothly throughout the day.[/QUOTE]

February 12
[QUOTE]Lewis jumped into the car this morning, picking up where Heikki left off yesterday. He spent the morning concentrating on aero mapping and finding a good balance ahead of the afternoon’s long runs. The day was extremely productive and saw the team continue its work with its KERS programme. Lewis said: “Today’s test gave me the first opportunity to drive MP4-24 in warm, dry conditions – and I’m very encouraged by what I felt. The car feels strong, very similar to last year’s car, in fact. It doesn’t take long to get used to the new buttons in the cockpit [KERS & front-wing flaps] but the real test for everyone now is to understand the slick tyres ahead of the first race in Melbourne next month.”[/QUOTE]

February 13
[QUOTE]The conclusion of a highly productive second test for MP4-24 at the Circuito de Jerez in Andalucia, southern Spain. Heikki Kovalainen and Lewis Hamilton shared driving duties, with Heikki heading up the test’s first two days and Lewis concluding the work on Thursday and Friday. While the opening day was briefly marred by a midday rainshower, the remainder of the programme was carried out under clear blue skies and warm sunshine, allowing the team to put some serious mileage on the new car. The majority of the four days was spent finessing the new car’s balance and set-up on slick tyres while also putting background miles on the KERS device – which proved largely trouble-free during all four days. The team carried out the majority of its running using a hybrid-spec 2008 rear wing in order to more effectively simulate expected downforce loads and will bring a raft of new components to next month’s test, back in Jerez.[/QUOTE]

...

March 1
[QUOTE]Pedro joined the test team today to evaluate compounds and casings for Bridgestone’s 2010-spec rubber. Next year’s tyres will be different as they will no longer be pre-heated in blankets and must also sustain cars running with heavier fuel-loads due to the ban on refuelling. While the team conducted some work using blankets, the prime runs were done without pre-heating, providing Bridgestone with useful data for next season. Despite the day’s session being punctuated by several red flags, the team completed 94 laps before an oil pressure sensor brought Pedro to a premature halt out on the circuit with just 10 minutes of the session remaining. Pedro said: “Running without tyre blankets makes it harder to get heat into the tyre – but that’s the objective for next year and that’s why Bridgestone will supply the teams with different compounds. We managed a lot of laps today and the work with the tyres was very positive.”[/QUOTE]

March 2
[QUOTE]With the day washed out by heavy rain, the team’s programme was necessarily limited by the poor conditions. Heikki Kovalainen, who unfortunately seems to bring the wet weather with him whenever he tests MP4-24, spent the day evaluating different brakes and set-ups. The rain allowed the team to sample Bridgestone’s new-compound wet (inter) tyre, but offered limited insight into its performance as the persistent rain meant the day was spent largely running on extremes. The team also spent time assessing optimum KERS deployment in the wet conditions, which proved highly productive.[/QUOTE]

March 3
[QUOTE]Overnight rain meant the day started on a damp track, allowing the team to continue the wet-tyre evaluation programme it had begun yesterday. Heikki made good progress understanding Bridgestone’s intermediate tyre before the drying track prompted a switch in focus for the afternoon. MP4-24 was subsequently fitted with a 2009 front and rear wing package – for the first time in dry conditions – and Heikki carried out a series of set-up evaluation runs until the end of the day. For Wednesday and Thursday, Lewis takes over driving duties and continues the programme.[/QUOTE]

March 4
[QUOTE]Lewis returned to the cockpit to continue the development and set-up programme that had been successfully started at the previous Jerez test. A delay to fit new parts to the rear suspension caused Lewis to miss out on most of the morning’s running - when the track was at its fastest - but he resumed after lunch. The presence of a blustery wind and a sudden shower prompted a brief spin in the afternoon but Lewis stayed on-track and later declared himself pleased with the team’s progress. With focus now shifting towards MP4-24’s mechanical set-up, the car proved one of the fastest over a long run and has given the team plenty of useful information as it works to prepare for the first race of the season later this month.[/QUOTE]

March 5
[QUOTE]Today’s programme started with the controlled on-track draining of the tank to assess the effectiveness of MP4-24’s fuel collection. For the remainder of the day, the team worked on tuning the car’s set-up before the session ended prematurely at 15:30 when a sudden gust of wind swept Lewis off the track and into a tyre barrier. While the impact was only a mere 44km/h, the car went in rearwards, doing enough to dislodge the rear wing and lightly damage the car’s rear-end. With insufficient time to effect repairs before the end of the session, the team opted to finish early in order to commence preparations for next week’s four-day Barcelona test.[/QUOTE]

I don't think a confident team would explain their actions so much..

..hope im wrong

sigh.

So before, when McLaren press releases were generic, and completely uninformative, people were not happy with them, and now, when they actually have something of substance to say, people are still not happy with them.

/facepalm

What they have said certainly seems to tie-in with events on the ground so to speak.
The coming tests hopefully will shed more light on whether they really have problems or not.

I hope the case is not.

Too right. All indications are that the MP4-24 is shite, so it is funny that Lewis has no chance to defend his title.
I personally hope so.

Regardless of they are informative or not, true or false in their press release, but that little retrospective wrap-up shows something. Fortuna hasn't loved McLaren till now.

Ah, so last year when Williams set a good few fastest laps and impressive long runs in testing it was indicative of their form once the real contest began? And in 2002, when Ferrari showed "poor times" during pre season testing that was indicative of their form that season then? You know the season where they won 15 out of 17 races.....

The actual times that McLaren are setting are irrelevant as we just don't know the values involved in terms of weight etc etc. The real issue is the continuation of use with the 08/hybrid spec wing. We'll only know if their is/was a problem when it comes to Melbourne.

I think you're missing key words in my comments:

Testing results are 'typically'(usually, but not always, in other words) 'indicative'(which is different from conclusive).

Argue with that all you want, but its historically true.

The car must be very sensitive to wind at that rate....

Good article. He seems confident Mclaren will sort out the rear wing stall problem. Lets wait and see if they have at this weeks test.

Femi what is your opinion on James Allen's deduction that Mclarens rear wing is stalling at low speeds causing rear end instability?
If it is true then I assume your confidence that they are in very very good shape for the year is based more around the advanced state of their Kers system rather then their aerodynamic's.

It is based on both and more but lets wait and see what happens towards the end of the Barca test...

I haven't read any article that says it is a low speed stall problem. But it sure sounds like BS to me!

Admittedly F1 aero is very complex, and I do not work in F1.

BUT as a generalisation, wings stall because they exceed a critical angle of attack, not because of speed!
This misconception occurs mainly because as aircraft slow they can have wing stall.. this again is not directly speed related, rather at lower speed the AoA needs to be increased to maintain lift, up to the point of stall.
Plenty of pilots have died in high speed stalls, not remembering their basic training.

One of the few valid reasons I could see for this to be true, would be if McLaren are using flexible wings which give a lower AoA at high speeds.... "Is this still cheating?"

I'm not sure whats not to get? I'd say at low speed they're having issues with the airflow becoming turbulent.
The thing with aerodynamics is it's such a black art. It's easy enough to understand all of the principles but in practice things are alot different.
I remember a couple of years ago there were suggestions that Ferrari had found a way to stall the wing at high speeds without flex, perhaps they tried this and mucked it up. Personally I'm not sure how true it is though, my understanding is that drag is higher in a stall.

If this is the case (low speed turbulence) then why not hypothesise there is a low speed turbulence problem, rather than saying it is a low speed stall problem.. yes I know a disrupted flow of air to the wing makes it far more susceptable to stalling, BUT changing the wing won't solve this, IF the turbulent air is coming from any point in front of the wing.. be that the bodywork, front wing or whatever, AGAIN sounds like BS to me!

maybe i will be proved wrong (again lol) and Mc will turn up with substantially different bodywork which will make the original wing work a treat and they will run away and hide in melbourne

but i doubt it



BTW I really dont see Aero as a Black ARt// It is absolutely a science, and sometimes even the smartest people mess up on their calculations or assumptions..