well there are two posibilities, either mclaren are so confident in their car, they feel they can allow them selves to try things out, seeing no reason to set fast times or! they have some problems and are trying all kind off things to sort out the problems- Judging by the comments, which reminds me a lot about, how Mclaren handled the problems in the old days, by speaking in codes and making a big deal out off explaining something that is actual worth nothing. I know testing times doesnt mean the world but, whenever mclaren and ferrari had a good season they always were among the top runners in pre season, plain and simple. So im quessing they have problems, but i hope not.

That was my assertion in an earlier post. Some guys just don't just see the wood from the trees.

Well, hopefully they aren't that far ahead of everyone else. I'm thinking some competition might be rather fun.

I'd forgotten, sorry. Just remembered the idea I expect, it looks a bit draggy for the faster tracks doesn't it?

BTW why did you say we'll see the Mac prove the doubters wrong "towards the end of Barca"? I was expecting tomorrow to be the day.

You believe McLaren would wait until the last possible moment to introduce their oh-so-special rear wing and diffusor combo; but you think they would test a part for Monaco some 2 months before the actual race.

I say it's just a development on their earlier front wing design, which supposed to be an interim solution anyway.

Yes, I remember you post from earlier in the week, don't worry ;)

So you think we might discover the answers to all our questions the end of next week?

Nevermind.

I actually expect them to get a lot more distance on their car in Barca and yes I expect that they will start showing a bit of their hands as well. We will certainly see the other teams showing more aggressive updates in Barca than Marca. Marca's trump card is the extra testing days in Jerez.

Well IIRC Williams on The Factory program (in the UK) said it takes 3 months to manufacture a front wing. So if they might want to change it, presumably now is when they need to find out, for example if the effect on the airflow to the rear is or isn't as predicted.

And as I said it looks a bit draggy.

Meanwhile they're committed to their diffuser, too late to change it now, and 8 days is plenty to set it up.

Regardless of what's the matter on the rear, the high d/f front wing which is aimed for Monaco (too) should be tested, as the in-season testing is banned, and Monaco is the 2nd European GP in the calendar. If you don't test your Monaco wing now, when and where you would test it? Only on the FP of Monaco GP? What if it's crap then? So some forwardthinking is definitely useful. They just tried out the 4-element front wing and did a flow-vis on it.

Regarding the rear end. The FIA clarification about the Williams/Toyota diffuser came quite late, but that has changed the development and testing road map of McLaren because they opted to make a diffuser according to that clarification of the rules. Supposing they are not a bunch of idiots they decided to simulate the final rear end with an infill panel fitted diffuser + an 08 rear wing. What they do is quite rare, but the special circumstances (diffuser rules clarification, banned in season testing, banned full scale model wind tunnel testing) has leaded them to this rare testing method. They're gambling with pretty big stakes, but this was necessary and reasonable for them.

On top of this they might have small and big problems too, but I think they have the resources to solve them. To fight for the championships is a whole season long fight, so nothing is over if they start the season as only e.g. the 3rd force. They will push it hard from there also, and I expect from them very strong in-season development.

Has any of this been confirmed ??

What? The clarification of the rules for the diffuser? Yes.

Or that they opted to make a new diffuser? That's common sense for me, because many things lead to that. Sam Michael (of Williams) said, he's sure some of the teams will copy their diffuser. Renault has just debuted a new diffuser on the latest test. It's not unexpected McLaren will introduce some new parts on the coming tests. Also the current, first version diffuser was used in a decreased form with the 08 wing. There was an infill panel fitted to its middle part. That decreases the downforce and 'makes room' for the 08 wing to adjust 09-ish d/f level with 09-ish drag level.

I'm 100% sure they'll quit to use 08 wing, and also quit to use the current infill panel fitted diffuser on the coming tests and Melbourne.

You can see on the Algarve test pictures what was the first version diffuser without infill panel. They started to do tricky thing with the diffuser since then in tandem with the 08 wing, that's more than enough for the conclusion, they are working/developing something diffuser related too.

You are spot on.

They most certainly are, however so are Ferrari. So far Ferrari have just run with a simple diffuser and an 09 rear wing. Whatever gains McLaren make with their super wooper pooper diffuser, other teams are working on similar aspects and have been testing with a proper rear wing all this time.

I'm not saying McLaren are in the poop but they havent impressed so far and I dont think they'll be making any huge leaps ahead of the rest.

Yes, you know why? Because that's what all teams are doing (even Williams and Toyota). Sheesh.

If they are doing that, the running of the 2008 rear wing only gets stupider then!


As you all know, underfloor and rear wing grip are two entirely different entities-

One is very sensitive to the car pitch and ride height, the other not.
One is quite sensitive to the car's yaw angle, the other not.


So not only are they losing out accurate L/D data by running the 2008 rear wing, they are now sacrificing an accurate underfloor aero map too*!?!

*if they are running with half a 2009 diffuser.

True but thing is Ferrari and others have so far only run with a basic diffuser. I expect Ferrari's to be quite different by Melbourne. I am confused when I see McLaren's diffuser though, there have been at least 3 variations on the blanking plate middle section. No idea what they're doing to be honest.

And then why some of you doubt that a new diffuser is very problable to come. You don't have to think it will be something super-duper überdiffuser, it will be average good at least, so McLaren won't be a backpacker with it, IMO.

Anyway Sam Michael hasn't said all of the teams.

No real sacrificing, because they couldn't get the accurate final underfloor map, when they don't have the final diffuser on the car.

One question Madras, suppose Mclaren appears in Barca and goes fastest very convincingly, how would you explain that away? Just get yourself a real good explanation ready because that's what is going to happen towards the end of the test.

So Mac has almost certainly been designing the double decker from the outset, it's not any kind of rush job. They just planned to keep it secret, and have kept to the plan.

ooooooooooowwww you're definitly going to have to be right now, otherwise I think they will be quite a few macca fans ready with the whips

Be careful to not raise our hopes up to far!

Man I'm hoping you secretly work at McLaren or atleast have a very credible source because your confidence is verry encouraging. 8 days of testing within the next ten days. I'll be glued to my computer until then.

And somebody could equally say you need to get your explanation ready if they aren't.

C'mon guys, you are all just basing your comments off of wishful thinking. There's things to suggest that Mclaren are doing just fine, and there's things to suggest they are struggling a bit. I dont think any conclusions can be made just yet.

Have you noticed he forgot to respond
Mclaren is in fine shape, don't let some arm chair aerodynamist tell you otherwise.

I don't work for Mclaren at all...

Yes, ignore all the obvious evidence that there might be something wrong and just blindly assume everything is fine.

There is no obvious evidence to ignore.
People should remember that the luxury of in season testing is over. Teams have to look ahead and prepare for the entire season now. The one obvious evidence that some people are ignoring is that Mclaren were already preparing for Monaco and Hungary at the very least. Why would they be doing that if the are in trouble?

We are talking about a well resourced team. A team that knows how to win. They are even far ahead with KERS! Furthermore, they were the only team that test the 2010 tyre specification for 2 days apart from the fact that they were the first team to have tested it.

If these looked like a team in trouble then you had better think again.

and why exactly are they not using a 2009 compliant car?

So first it was rain, then KERS and now the reason for running a 2008 wing is working on Monaco setup?

Where did you get that from, me?

The fact that you don't know the answer to that one is no proof that Mclaren is in trouble. It is simply a confession of ignorance.

Are Mclaren preparing for Monaco and Hungary? Or are you just plain guessing? Simply saying, "Well it would make sense", isn't enough, sorry. It would make sense if Mclaren are actually in trouble, too.

Sorry, man, but all I hear is a lot of wishful thinking. Its fine if you want to be optimistic, but going around acting like you know anything for sure is rather foolish. Same for those who think Mclaren are definitely doomed. There's just no definitive way to intrepret what's going on at Mclaren at this time.

This is pure comedy

Actually I am not speculating.
If you read the majority of the posts on this forum, one can summarize them in one sentence - Mclaren are in trouble.

I ask again, let anyone point out ANY evidence of panic in the Mclaren camp...go on lets have it.

Yeah

True or not, its fun seeing the rival fans coming into the MP4-24 thread feeling nervous and twitchy

So as long as there's no evidence of panic there can not be a problem ? I don't expect there to be panic in an organisation like that of McLaren anyway.

Then let me take you back to the MP4-18 saga. You should remember the team reaction and behaviour, even ordinary testing days were populated with Mclaren big guns! and the press releases?

They've evaluated 3 2009 rear wings, and all the three was different d/f design. Also they've evaluated 2 different 2009 front wings. Do you think all of these are only for Melbourne? Do you think they will pick one and one from these wings and put all the others into the trash can? It's not about the setup for e.g. Monaco, it's about the evaluation of the different packages for different tracks. The wing evaluations was for forwardthinking pretesting, even if they are not inevitably the final wings, but the testing of them was needed for the preparation and the further development through the season, when testing is banned.

You definitely are speculating. And I'm not going to fall for this trap of naming all of the evidence, because I think we all know it already. The difference is how its being interpreted. The Mclaren fans are desparately trying to come up with excuses as to how its no big deal, and the haters are desparately trying to say its proof they're in trouble.

None of us know the truth. Not you, not me, not anyone on this board.

I don't need proof since I am not in a court of law.
I just try some common sense, I don't say it's anything...I am curious WHY are they doing it, that's it
it's an interesting approach, to say the least

Guess what, if they got it wrong like a lot of people are speculating and with no in-season testing, the shit will be hitting the fan this close to the start of the F1 season. But what do we see or hear? a consistent message, a calmness and an atmosphere of confidence.

Anyway we will soon see. Some people are really going to eat loads of humble pie.

Question femi: Will McLaren appear on top of the time sheets this week, yes or no?

Fair enough.

What signs of panic did we see from Honda before 2007 and 2008?

What panic? A couple of us are saying it's quite likely Mclaren is in troubles. But who says they're panicking?

As for 'evidence', what do you expect, a body in the paddock maybe? Running a 2008 wing and slow times during the long runs with so little time before first GP seems like the best indication you an ask for during the off-season that they're not where they want to be with development of 2009 aero. But of course it's possible it's part of their plan. Just it doesn't really fit to the picture I see, but sure, I could be very much mistaken.

All just speculation. You cannot be sure that these new rear wings and front wings are not simply evolutions that are to be used at Melbourne.

This is the only thing I have a problem with. I'm neutral on Mclaren, but I'm definitely interested in their development because they're usually always a major contender, but its a bit annoying to see so many people thinking they know anything for sure. To be honest, I'm not even going to make any conclusions after Melbourne cuz that track seems to throw up surprise results.

I cant tell you guys to be more reasonable, but all I can say is that by acting like you know more than you really do, you just set yourself up for disappointment and embarrassment. On the other hand, you may end up looking like prophets and geniuses, but anyone can make guesses that come right every so often. I call it the 'Nostradamus-effect'.

I don't know, I never did reckon with Honda. I used to like their engine though.

So are we going to see the 08 wing again on the McLaren this week or not?