There is a difference between opinions on the Mp4-24 and sentences like "No Alonso, No Newey, and no Dossier = Back to the dark days." and only a complete moron wouldn't be able to see the differences between them.

If we went into the Renault thread and started slagging off Alonso, you'd be the first to start complaining, so as I said, act with grace and treat this thread how you would like your own to be treated.

It depends if the 'slagging off' has substance. We all know that Alonso and Newey have a strong proven influence of a team and they are gone, and if you believe Mclaren had the complete 'how to build a ferrari' guide in their hands and never opened it, you must also believe in mary poppins.

Mary Poppins exists. Chim chimney chim chimney chim chim cheree

Btw same thing came to my mind, but didn't want to start an argument
Bring back Coughlan!!

So I'll take that as a yes you are suggesting cheating. Great stuff guy you're a real asset to 'your' team.

Can you please explain your Renault and Ferrari claims?

Renault developed a fantastic technical innovation (mass damper) and had it banned to equalise peformance, then they tried to stay true to the rules, and didn't develop their engine at all then suffered hugely because of it. Completely different to what you are suggesting which is outright blackmail, threatening to quit to gain testing kms.

I will agree that in the past Ferrari's practices have been dodgy with regards to private testing etc. but I'm not sure what you are referring to other than that. The extra payments per annum? Most people accepted them at face value as it brought the whole GPWC debacle to a close and arguably, a couple of years later, F1 is stronger because of it.

I've never seen somebody so badly in denial.....

Indenial off what exactly? The term "something not adding up"? I don't know about you but that term doesn't imply anything good or bad or denial of anything or other, so please lets stop being a smart arse.

Oh where to start, lets see, I missed the wink smiley out of the saying Mercedes tried there hand to soon. happy on that point.

But facts stand, Renault threaten to leave and get given leeway to bring there engine up to spec, other teams, BMW, Ferrari, and Mercedes did nothing wrong, otherwise they would have being banned. I never mentioned anything about Mass Damper, Ferrari in the past have bluffed, threatened to leave to get there own way.

edited to add, the same Renault that is rumoured to have lied about its performance curves to gain a peformance advantage?

As for the 'real asset to your team comment, well seeing how you have no problem with both ferrari and Renault stunts but are horrified that it could be suggested that Mercedes pull the same, atleast I'm not a hypocrite.

I wasn't being a 'smart arse'. I'm just saying you're in denial, and you know exactly what I meant by it. I've followed your posts in this thread and others and the general concensus is that you dont want to believe that Mclaren truly are struggling. Simple as that. Now you're just being in denial of what you're being in denial of!

I'm sorry if this is offending you, but sometimes people just need someone to pour some cold water on their face to wake them up and see the reality.

MCLAREN ARE STRUGGLING.

Its not a rumor anymore. Its not speculation. Its happening. And its not the end of the world.

Anomnader, dude you need to chill out. On this page alone you call one poster a 'complete moron', another a 'smart arse', and a third a 'hypocrite'. Everybody is entitled to their opinions whether you agree with them or not; you might find you enjoy this place more with a less confrontational approach.

My opinion is they missed the mark, but they are a great team. It will be interesting to watch them fight back.

Saying "Something doesn't add up" Means I find something confusing, nothing about deny any struggles or not. I have made an opinion that they are going to be behind, hopefully make up some ground in this weeks test and be top of the middle group at the first race, thats an opinion on the situation, as is people who think they will be at the back.

No more no less, no denial of anything.

And Human, you got upset in another thread, when someone had a go at your opinion, but here you doing the same.

Well, to be fair, I didn't call a person a complete moron, I said that only morons couldn't see the differences between to different stances of posting opinions, but as I said, I wouldn't go into the Renault thread and cause trouble, they wouldn't like it so should extend the same consideration to this thread.

And the other two, took diggs first, plus I said, "I'm" not a hypocrite, if they hadn't done, then I wouldn't have being so confrontational.

Could always start off weak, get strong midway.
Never underesimate Mclaren.

Sorry but I think you're being a bit pendantic now, your implication was very clear in each case. Regardless, I didn't mean to take this thread off topic. I hope your night is going well.

The MP4-24 has had a difficult birth, but I'm sure they'll get it up to speed as the season progresses. I certainly wouldn't rule out Macca winning races this season.

It is very good that the team have come out and admitted that their car is slow and that it would take time to fix the problems - no BS about we will be competing for podiums and wins by the time the European races start etc. The first part of solving a problem is acknowledging it and atleast they were open about it. That said, I don't think they are going at be anywhere near the top three throughout the season. They may improve but other teams will be way ahead and it going to be a long uphill battle; possibly a season of frustration and despair for the fans.
The one thing that bugs me with the team is they are never consistent; going from the sublime to the ridiculous. How I wish they approach the levels that Ferrari attain even when they are fighting for the championships. And most often than not Ferrari keep things simple and so attain consistency, whereas we go in for the exotic - sometimes such an approach works but when it doesn't......
The team had enough resources and yet failed to come up with a car that can compete in the top three. Amazing. Barring 2005 Ferrari have been the benchmark for more than a decade. Something the team needs to think about - why the yo-yo nature of performance it has displayed during the same period.
And Martin Whitmarsh - I don't feel confident with him at the helm of affairs.
Having said all that I shall still support the team and hope they can pull out a rabbit out of the hat.

yeah true, same can be said about Ferrari aswell!
but from this season not testing is allowed, so there is very minimal chances to improve
what we see at melbourne will be almost the same in the end!

in 2005 Ferrari had a very good chassis , only problem was that their B'stone tyres wouldnot hold up the whole race ...... and that too coz their 2005 car was already built when the new last minute tyre regulations were brought in.
As for Mclaren its really sad to see them go down , come up , go down etc!
As a Ferrari fan i want them to fight with us all the time and see some spectacular racing (especially this season)
it wont be fun to visit here after a race from now, as i wont get to fight with mclaren fans

It would be like underestimating Darth Vader. Just when you think Ron is getting into the escape pod and flying to a galaxy far far away, you feel a death grip on your throat.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/03/13/...er-performance/

It makes me so funny right now when I recall some of memebers of this board saying 2008 rear-wing, vis flows and other stuff was just "a part of mysterious plan".

Try to read McLaren test reports right now when you know how the things are - true masterpiece of PR bulsh**ing!

Anyway, real McLaren fans should be glad in some way. This season will wipe out most of fanboys, and there are so many of them from 2007.



Quite unlikely imho at the moment as there are teams which hit the sweet spot immediately: Ferrari, Toyota and Brawn GP - that's six cars with good drivers. Also there's no testing during the season, but odd races always happen.

The fact is, we really don't know how big the gap will be in Melbourne to the frontrunners. Hopefully not as big as it appears at the moment because the article is really pessimistic imho... :\ I don't give up hope, maybe it's only "2006" and not a "2004".

Never underestimate the power of the dark side.

It's still too early to start the "I told you so" campaign against the optimistic McLaren fans.

It's a lottery, it's gambling, to be later in the told you so brigade. But if that makes you happy, start the campaign. Anyway that was so easy for you to bet against McLaren, because you are an antimclaren fan.

I love the team, I trust the team, and I'm optimistic. I don't like pessimism, I don't need pessimism, you can have it, I give it you.

It's not about smartness to hit which team end up where. It's about luck, so be happy you seem lucky right now.

OK so we know the car is poor. Can we have some technical discussion on where they went wrong, what is wrong in the car and why?

Here's my take on it. The tub of the car slims down to the rear far too quickly causing the airflow to detach from the car.

Any other takers, theories?

Hey, I heard this car is the first one not based on Newey's design - is that true?

Only because the regulation changes have meant they started with a completely blank sheet this time.

Newey's last McLaren is the MP4-21, which competed in 2006 with Raikkonen, Montoya and PdlR.

MP4-22: Pat Fry
MP4-23: Tim Goss
MP4-24: Pat Fry

Hey, I heard this car is the first one not based on Newey's design - is that true?

There is no basis to state that the cars of 2007, 2008 were the direct (or even indirect) result of Newey's designs. Newey left in 2006 (early 2006 IIRC) and so to say that this year's car is the first one that doesn't have Newey's influence is incorrect. It is akin to stating that F-60 is the first car that doesn't bear the signature of Rory Byrne.

Even so you have to agree with the fanboy statement - there are so many plastic fans around in F1 at the moment due the Hamilton's phenomenal success that McLaren being in strife for a season would prune a huge number of them and that is a good thing.

the ones who has been mclaren fans for many years, should have recognized the signs in mclarens pr long time ago. They dont handle their problems very well in the press. They start speaking in codes, and tell stuff that is actually worth nothing. Its the same for many years, and i saw the signs long time ago.
There is no doubt they hoped this latest aero package would do the job, but as it turned out it didnt and now they are forced to make a statement. And that is good. Its an ok, almost honest statement. Honest in, that they admit they have problems. Dishonest in the way that they say the latest aero package was flawed and didnt deliver. They have known there was a problem a lot longer, and its not related to new package. Im quessing it is the whole concept. And im pretty shure if they are to come out on top, they need to make a new car. There were a few of us that questioned the concept from the beginning, i quess we just got lucky.
So what went wrong? Im quessing they got to selfconfident and went down a to conservative road. It was evident right from the beginning, both from looking at the car, and from the statements off the tech personnel, that mclaren had taken a very conservative route, bouilding a car which had a lot of room for improvements. One tech person said, this car is not as marginal as the others weve build. Im quessing they did that, because they thought they could adapt later on if they found solutionts on other cars they liked. Said in another way. They build a car who has a bit off everything. They didnt dare to choose a concept and stick by it 100%, because the risk off choosing the wrong direction, was to big. So they made this conservative adaptable car, and waited until they saw the other teams solutions, and which were the right one to choose. As it turned out the car was perhaps a bit to conservative, and now they need to bring a new one fast. Further, i dont think they acknowleged how big a difference kers has on the car. They were so focused on implmenting it in the car and get it to work. They were so confident they could make a car work as good with kers dispite the weight penalty. And im not shure they succeded. Look at honda and toyota. Ill bet you none off them will introduce it, this season.

But this is just my take on things

Good post, I personally agree with everything you said above... I work for a big company and the fear of taking a chance with design always ends up with a 'design by committee' situation that is far too conservative... you need a Newey or a Brawn to be able to steer things in a single direction. Its a plausable theory. I do thnk they will bounce back though, and expect them to halve the deficit by Oz. ?Remember, this is a company that was fined $100 million and the next year won the WDC... they are very strong.

Only Pat Fry knows.

Newey's last 'good' design: MP4-20

About Pat Fry:
In 2002 he was promoted to the role of Chief Engineer of Race Development, and was responsible for the MP4-20 and MP4-22 chassis. As of 2008, he is working on the MP4-24, McLaren's planned entry for the 2009 Formula One season.

Later Newey was fired and Pat Fry became Chief Designer. So go figure. And we'll see which car will be better this year, Newey's RBR or Fry's McLaren.

IMO Newey was past his sell-by/use-by date by the time he left McLaren. The realationship between the team and AN got stale and it was good for both of them that he moved out.
Pat Fry has been good with the cars that he developed - 2005, 2007. So, it is a bit of a surprise that he turned out a turd this year. I'm sure he'll bounce back from this one-off.

I notice Femi is hiding in the winter testing thread. I thought he would have something to say about the latest press release from Mclaren about the 'Slow' car they have produced.

McLaren doesn`t have a chief designer as such and IMHO neither Goss or Fry actually design the car (I mean in a Newey way for example), there are +600 engineers working there IIRC.

JONATHAN NEALE - Managing Director
PADDY LOWE - Engineering Director
NEIL OATLEY - Design and Development Director
DAVE RYAN - Sporting Director
SIMON LACEY - Head of Aerodynamics
TIM GOSS - Chief Engineer MP4-23
PAT FRY - Chief Engineer MP4-24
MARK WILLIAMS - Head of Vehicle Engineering
SIMON ROBERTS - Operations Director

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/7941572.stm

Whitmarsh added: "I am utterly certain that, once we have ironed out the issues the MP4-24 currently faces, we will win as a team again."

Do you guys think these issues are iron outable? From the first viewing of the MP24 it has looked high and the sidepods appear bulky. Not running the 09 wing for so long, rightly, was a sign of poor development at McLaren. This project is looking like an 04 mess but from more of an aero POV than engine.

Can McLaren turn it into a winner? Will KERS help or hinder them?

I think it is doable. To me it doesn`t seem to be a 04 problem (that was really a mess), more 06 (hopefully) without reliability problems.

We still don`t know however, where the car is compared to the others. Only after the the first three races we will know how deep the sh** is.

Why is everyone talking about Newey only? I think Nicholas Tombazis had a greater effect on McLaren's competitiveness in recent years. He joined McLaren in the spring 2004 and immediately started work on MP4-19B which had very Ferrari-esque sidepods for example. Next years car was a winner even if unreliable. Then he left in the winter 2006 back to Ferrari. Co-incidentally the 2005 Ferrari was relatively turd and I don't think everything can be blamed on tyres. Remember that laughable front wing?

First hey to everyone. Am new at the forums but been an F1 fan for many years.

So what i want to know now is exactly how bad is the car when they say it's not were we wanted it to be in terms of speed. Are we speaking about being a midfield car or a complete mess that is on the back of the grid with Force India?
I realize that even if it is a complete mess Mclaren can at least make it a midfield car and a little more. But if it already is a midfield car, is there a chance that they can make it a top three car after half of the season?

I have never gotten upset simply because somebody was having a go at my opinion. I love a good discussion, believe me. I get upset when my opinion is misrepresented, taken out of context and otherwise made a strawman of. Big difference, there.

And here was your original comment:

"Even thou they have admitted somethings wrong, and people are suggesting that the computers calibrations are off, hmmm, I dunno, I still don't think something adds up somewhere, they have some of the most advanced simulators, yes it can go wrong, but only to McLaren?"

Its definitely clear that you're struggling to accept it, big-time. There's nothing that doesn't add up here. The team have came out and TOLD US that everything is not alright. You're just unwilling to accept the truth of the matter, and continue to look for more and more excuses to try and hold out hope that nothing's actually wrong.

But like I said, you seem to be in denial of being in denial, so there's obviously nothing I can say that will make you realize this, as you seem to be living in some different reality than the rest of us where evidence and facts go right out of the window in favor of blind optimism.

Chief Engineer or Chief Designer, that's only question of wording. But technically and practically Pat Fry is responsible for the designing of the MP4-24.

Pat Fry also have engineers/designers under his direction hierarchy, as Newey also had, for example Pat Fry.

I guess the 1 positive out of all this is that all the fair weather fans will leave and attach themselves to the next best team,like the poster mentioned above I find some of their absolutely blind optimism hilarious,almost justifying to themselves the car will be a definite winner to make themselves sure they've made the right choice in supporting the team. It was the same after the 2000 season. Just go on and support ferrari like the rest,their always a safe bet

I've been a McLaren fan for many years,I love the team and seen ups and downs,mainly downs but will always support them. Im not pessimist,Im a realist and im not afraid to admit the car is a dud.

To the so called experts on here who patronized posters and blabbered out technical jargon on us telling us we're wrong and they're right and the car is amazing and think they're god's gift to us on this board. Don't get me wrong I appreciate your input but please spare us the patronizing.

We don't know yet. For example Alonso put McLaren to 7th force in his recent video interview. It seems that bad at the moment.

But...
http://beiderbecke.typepad.com/tba/images/.../obama_hope.jpg

The fact Mclaren have done so well for the past 2 seasons and have attracted a lot of new people to F1 with Hamilton makes it even more painful when their car doesnt perform. All teams have a history of producing dud cars occasionally, McLaren are not immune but it seems many people thought they were. But look on the bright side, looks like Ferrrai might not have hit the nail on the head properly either, as the Brawn looks stronger.

The rear of the car is dud. We thought from many things e.g. from Sam Michael's interview, something will come, maybe a new diffuser. We thought Mac might have that already. Now I say it MUST come, even if it's not exist yet. See the pictrures of the latest test day. The diffuser has 'welded' parts. So it might be a dud.

Read the technical analysis of the BGP 001. It has a powerful diffuser concept, rivals will need to adopt BGP's ideas otherwise might be no chance against them.

If the driver position (which is the most striking difference between McLaren and the other fast teams) is the issue it will take a whole new chassis aswell.

Keep in mind that the FOTA have agreed to significantly curb (and it's already in effect) the development pace, to cut expenditure.

Teams can no longer throw unlimited aero and CFD resources at car development.
This will make McLaren's and other teams recovery significantly slower than what would be possible until last year.



And there is more coming for 2010:



The expensive development pace, which rich teams can afford, is over...for now.

Talking about the rear, it has to be more than merely the rear wing or diffuser. The airflow over the front and middle of the car before it reaches the rear wing is arguably more important than the wing itself. And choices made long ago about the gearbox, suspension and kers may make large changes to the diffuser difficult. I fear the car maybe fundamentally flawed.

I agree, they were trying all week to sort it out and didnt really get anywhere. If it was just the rear wing or diffuser they would have been able to correct that relatively easily. I think they've tried to do something too complicated, and their simulator is not able to replicate it properly. Too much faith in the computer programming perhaps?

Computer aided failure.

I think there is a difference between "blind optimism" and just hoping for the best. No real fan wants to think the car is a dog so it's hard not to cling to the small nuggets of hope which did and possibly still do exist.
As for the car - I still believe they can claw back a good amount, I don't think they will be so far behind the likes of Renault and BMW come Melbourne but I do feel they are too far behind Ferrari to catch up in such short order.



All teams make poor cars from time what irks me in this thread is that all the haters are somehow suggesting that because of the alleged Newey/Alonso effect the team now doesn't know how to win, like all of McLarens history and Pedigree count for nothing because Alonso left LOL!
As for Newey - he's well past his best, how many cracks of the whip has he had and failed?