tis Just another Mp4-19/F2005/RW27 dud car - maybe they should do a Brawn and just write off the year and Make the MP4-25 a killer!!

Well it's a disappointment but we have 4 days of testing now so let's see if they can get it up to a speed where points are a possibility. We have to adjust to a different kind of season, but if the top points are well spread out among different drivers then catching up later in the season might not be completely impossible.

Meanwhile there is some great racing in prospect- Jense, Vettel, Kimi back to form perhaps, Lewis vs Fernando maybe, Vettel vs Fernando could be quite spicy too.

"We" ? :\

Wow. I knew McLaren would eventually make bad cars, but for that to happen this soon in Hamilton's career... I'm just surprised..

Lets see what tomorrow brings and how exactly far behind they are, I'm sure they've being working hard to rectify the problem and have some idea of where the problem is and what solutions they need to implement.

Probs was the 2008 challenge that took to much resources out of the team

They should ask 2 chassis' from Brawn. One for Lewis, one for Heikki, if the 24 isn't fixable.

As we see from RBR-Toro, customer cars are legal this year. Just a quick paint job before Melbourne, and the problem would be solved.

We have 4 days of testing (as spectators)

to see if They can improve the car

This is F1, it happens. Hamilton knows the score... he only has to cast his minds back to the donkeys that McLaren turned out in the mid nineties...

Lewis said he would fulfil his entire F1 career with Mclaren...he may rue that comment pretty soon.

I'm surprised that people seem so surprised that McLaren could possibly produce a less than fantastic car. They've got form on doing exactly that.

As for Hamilton... For crying out loud, the guy's starting his third season and so far he's 2/2 in WDC-capable cars. For all we know, it may be 3/3 after this season if McLaren manage to fix whatever they're trying to fix. I think it's a bit early for the doom-and-gloom scenarios...

That's a good attitude from McLaren fan

You can now imagine how do supporters of other extremely talented drivers who didn't have winning car yet feel.

Also take a notice that among favourites to the WDC there's only one world champion - Kimi Raikkonen. That's quite a good chance we will have a new one!

The biggest dissapointment for me is not just the car, it's that whole reputation of McLaren being famous for yo-yo-ing fortunes. I thought and hoped that was coming to an end last year when, according to recent reputation, macca was "supposed" to create a dud. When they created a good car I thought we (just for you pUs ) would be front-ish runners consistently again. But oh no. It looks like last year must have been a leap year for mclaren, because this year (the second, "good car" year) they chose to do a dud again.

What I'm just wondering, is how the hell can Ferrari be consistent title challengers (bar 2005 - not ENTIRELY their fault anyway), but macca can't?! This habit of macca being frequent chokers is rather irksome. I so desperately hope that Brawn does well consistently this season, because I support Mercedes first and then macca. Always have. Now I'd prefer that macca be a title challenger this year, but if they aren't, at least I'll have to cheer me up.

Well I would prefer Red Bull, Williams or Brawn or India to win rather then Ferrari, BMW or Renault

I'll still support McLaren but if one of the first 4 are challanging then I'll be wishing them all the best in the coming title chase against the big teams.


So, tomorrows test? who are we matching ourselves against, Alonso?

I think that's a little optimistic, I'd look around the Red Bull / Williams level?

your right and they may well solve a lot of the problems this week. If they are reliable and finish in the points and Ferrari for example don't then it's still game on. Personally I am so eager for the season to start as there are so many variables this year and as a F1 enthusiast I am intrigued to see how it plays out. There are some very talented guys out there, a great zero to hero story potentially unfolding with Brawn gp. Kers V Non Kers and the strategies that will provoke and potentially a very different grid to what we have seen during the last few years.

Button. McLaren, push the Button!

If they dont fix atleast some of the problem in Jerez next week i think they are gonna be in the big mess of a midfield with Renault , Red Bull , Torro Rosso, and maybe Williams depending on the track.

Maybe Hamilton can challenge the Toyota's and BMW's on some tracks because they look like the slowest from the new "top 4" if he feels good with the car on any of the tracks.

Yes it will be interesting to see if BMW can keep up with development this year so Kubi can challenge.

That reminds me that Mac had a target last year of gaining 0.15s per race - 2.5 seconds over the season. And this year they have the 'advantage' of having more scope for development... .

They had unexpected problems with the new aero package in Barcelona, maybe there will be unexpected solutions the next week....

Who knows, I'm not getting too overly optimistic though. Just to get an awful lot of laps done, at least a bit of improvement of the car and to understand what exactly is at fault with it (whether its fatal/curable) would be a very successful test in my eyes. Even if they only find out that its a lost cause, they'll be able to either start work on a B spec, or just get going with the MP4-25.

It will be interesting to see if Button can capitalize on having a quick car. Barrichello has had a championship wining car in the past but unfortunately he had Michael as his team mate and all that entailed. If Kubicas BMW is quick then I believe he will be very strong. Sebastian Vettel too.

I'm not too optimistic, that was just a possibility I thought about. It's disapointing, Ferrari is (nearly) always up there and McLaren has downs regulary.

There ya go! Thats how to be a proper optimist!

Yeah wasn't suggesting you were, and it is always a possibility. I've only recently got used to the idea of not fighting for the title though, so I'm trying to avoid anything that might upset that myself

Which problems? With help of new aero package they had improved their result from 1:23:4 (Heikki, first half of first day) to 1:20:8 (Lewis, 4th day). Of course, during four test days the track conditions was improved too, but nobody (especially leaders) has reach such progress as McLaren.
They have more complex problem with downforce, and new aero package just partially solved it.

Whitmarsh says its the other way round - initial package was to plan, update fell short of expectations. Perhaps the truth is between the two. Would seem likely, seeing as they were both designed with the same (apparently flawed) hardware.

Oh, come one! You don't even know fuel loads and programmes of Kovalainen & Hamilton!

Well, does anybody?

Not just limited to McLaren ...

Exactly, but SNiko claims McLaren improved 2.6s basing it on test times... how stupid is that?

Well, certainly not more stupid than anything else on this very BB, don`t ya think?

Everything is opinion here, but shouldn't he say: maybe, imho, I think. He just says McLaren improved 2.6s while he doesn't know circumstances. Or maybe he knows? If he provides fuel loads, details of programmes, used tire compounds then I'll be the first one to say - sorry, I was wrong.

As I understood, you claim that first day McLaren run for example with 40kg fuel, second day - 30kg, third day - 20kg, and fourth day - 10kg? Is not stupid this?

My thoughts are based on lap times of the every run (short or long) of every day. And all I can say is that every day, every run was faster and faster. Such results demonstrate progress in understanding of the new aero package and overall car setup.

Why not? You can't exclude that they drove with much less fuel while doing 1:20,8 than when they did 1:23,4.

Improving times doesn't mean you are making progress. The same rule applies to going up with times. Heidfeld did 1:20,3 on Monday and 1:21,6 in Tuesday. Does it mean BMW-Sauber went backwards? Of course it doesn't. Does 1:20,8 from McLaren mean they improved. Of course it doesn't. We simply don't know.

Morover Whitmarsh says new package didn't work so I wouldn't conclude anything from their times.

In comparison with McLaren, the BMW (like some other teams) had already introduced and tested theirs final package at Jerez. In Barcelona, they were generally busy with setup car for first GPs, and with simulating GP (qual, race, and so on). That’s why (of course IMHO) they showed different times in different days (for example, Monday - qual, Tuesday - race).

As to McLaren, they just introduced their final package in Barcelona. So, all 4 days they were busy with setup and understanding the new package. That's why they show improvements every day. Of course, I also take into account the fuel load and track conditions.




It doesn’t mean that new package didn't works at all. Maybe they expected that new package will completely solve their problems, but it just partially solves the problems.

"Looking at the lap times from Wednesday and Thursday, Hamilton doesn’t do any long runs, 10 laps is his maximum and the car runs in the 1m 22s and high 1m 21s. It’s very hard to guess how heavy the car is when they did this run, as 10 laps worth of fuel is only about 25 kilos, so the car could have had another 30 on board at the end of the run or just fumes.

Generally I would expect them to have a total of around 40 kilos in the car as a reference for their tests. They were not doing long runs or race distance tests, where you’d expect to use 50 kilos per 20 lap stint.

Toyota’s Timo Glock does a 20 lap run the same day where most of his laps are in the low 1m 21s, so substantially faster.

Lewis sets his fastest time on Thursday, a 1min 20.869, on the first flying lap of a five lap run. In a comparable length run Williams’ Nico Rosberg does a 1m 19.774 lap, which looks like a qualifying simulation and Felipe Massa does a 1m 20.677 as part of a 10 lap run.

The Brawn meanwhile is on another planet, doing a 20 lap run in the low 1m 21s and high 1m 20s, with a best time on low fuel in the 1m 18s.

The BMW is interesting, Kubica does a 1m20.740 on the fourth lap of a 21 lap run, so no attempt at a low fuel lap for him. I still think they are faster than they look at the moment.

So looking for a reliable yardstick, it looks like the McLaren is a good second off the pace of Ferrari, perhaps more."

Newey wanted to leave McLaren for some time. He wanted to design an America's Cup boat. Jaguar even announced that Newey was joining them, which was followed by Ron Dennis convincing Newey to stay, by changing Newey's conditions. There's been much change at McLaren - for example their matrix organisation structure. One thing seemed clear a few years ago - Ron Dennis wanted Newey to stay. If one considers the relative team sizes, the RBR project has been quite successful. And a Newey car did win a race last year too.

exactly, spot on

I still think that essentially buying the Brawn design would be the best solution, unless there is some miracle cure for the MP4/24 after all, in those first few races...

Instead of wasting money on trying to improve a dud that probably can't be improved all that much without building a completely new car, spending the same money on Brawn (which probably needs it) will get better results and give Mclaren a decent baseline, even if it takes some time to understand exactly how it works (and to get reliable production of the parts needed).

Does anyone know if mclaren will bring fresh untested updates to Melbourne to try in Free practice? Wouldve been two weeks since the barca test, maybe they would have made some developments?

Possibly, but atm its impossible for anyone who doesnt work for McLaren to know.

Actually doing that would break the FIA's rules.

However McLaren could employ a single engineer from Brawn, who was privy to the design, and they could legally acquire the design that way.

Maybe Brawn could get an fee for providing such an employee - a bit like football clubs do?

The best cure as far as I can see, if things aren't salvagable with the current car, is to design a B spec. The idea of an organisation like McLaren having to buy a chassis off a rival would be a humiliation for them, even more so after recently having been dealt a fine of £50m for illegally possessing another team's technical data. The sponsors, engineers, upper management, owners and even drivers would start wondering about the point of the team, £300m factory and all, if it can't do anything for itself. Fans as well. As such, I'd regard buying the Brawn as a non-starter. Illegal anyway.

A B-spec, while pretty much no use as far as title winning for 2009 goes, will at least prove that they can build a competitive car off their own steam, potentially get some minor glory this year, and give a stepping stone into 2010. Worked in 2004. People might cite Newey as the difference there, and who knows, they might end up being right, but I don't believe he was so critical. Yes, the 2007 and 2008 cars were evolutions of a Newey concept, but other engineers still had to develop and understand it to the extent where they could win a bundle of races and a championship. If they can't design a proper car for themselves then I don't know how that could happen.

f1rules made an interesting point earlier, about being too conservative with the design, not committing fully to a concept in case it proved to be the wrong one, leaving doors open in a number of directions. If that is the case, then how can this car be totally flawed? It sounds as if it was this kind of eventuality which would be the whole point of that idea - give plenty of room for salvaging anything that went wrong. Indeed, I remember the team stating this at its launch. At the time it was spun to be a positive aspect, now its turned into a negative one. But as I said - would it not mean there was a higher chance of the car being in as bad a situation as currently feared? Genuine question, I might be missing something.

I personally think the car will be able to be turned into one challenging for wins. People are stating that the lack of testing will be their death, and that clearly the simulation facilities won't be able to take up the slack because they aren't working. Agreed, if those design tools don't work, the situation is fairly hopeless. If they can be corrected however, and I believe they can and will be, then it'll put the team in good stead. No championship most likely, but some restored pride.

Really looking forward to this test, hopefully some more questions will be answered.

They said that they are not where they want to be yet. Where is exactly the place they want to be? Ahead of others including Brawn GP? Ahead of Ferrari? I hope that they are not where they don't want to be...

Hi guys .

Been lurking on this forum since the start of the tests this year and i've been kept very interested and entertained by some of you. So i thought i'd just through my two pennies worth at it now.

Im a McLaren fan since i started watching in 96 and i really don't think any other team could of broken my heart more times than they have, but i will always follow them. I am resigned to the fact that this year it is looking less likely that we are goin to win anything but i sure as hell am looking forward to watching Lewis battle/carve his way through the field. I see this year a chance for him to silence the cynics out there once and for all.

On another note I'm really suspicious as to how well Brawn are running all be it only after one test i know. I am well aware of the fact that other teams in the past - when things have got sticky - have miraculously found two seconds over there rivals to just then dip right out of contention come the start of the season (Prost, Arrows, BAR...). However one thing i seem to find different this time around, is, that other drivers and teams are speaking up about Brawns performance and seem seriously worried about their pace. Or are they really???
I have this feeling that maybe the other teams are reaching out a helping hand. Teams really seem to be pulling together recently over the past year or so, i mean just look at McLaren and Ferrari - Dennis and Montezemelo are practically bummchums after spygate.

So could we be seeing a united front with FOTA and the start of something beautiful? Maybe that sounds a little extreme but what Ross Brawn has done for those 600+ workers is a very honourable thing and i know that won't be his only reason but ya got to admit the guy is a class act, and i for one, I'm not surprised about the other drivers and teams comments on Brawns pace. :\

Hi there

I pretty much have agree with most of what you have said.

Not long to go now until we see the dividends of the overall development of the teams, and the real-world performance.

I can't wait!!!

I certainly hope McLaren can improve before Melbourne, but if they don't, it's still going to be a cracker of a season if testing is anything to go by.

Customer cars are not allowed in F1 at the moment.

That is an interesting point, although the Brawn BGP 001 was entered as Honda, as from the renaming of the team, it does become a "customer" car. I wonder what will happen next season, will customer cars be allowed?

Hence, the Toro has a complety different chassis to Red Bull.

how does just renaming a team make their new chassis a customer chassis?


there is a loophole for it
as both the team get their car from another factory! which is not forbidden
but from next season that loophole is covered!

They are, and yet they aren't. Brilliant, isn't it?