No, he meant that any car behind the Brawns would leapfrog them down to turn 1, not just the McLarens. I personally think that any Pole attained by a Honda or a Toyota will be pretty worthless because they won't be ahead by the end of lap 1, and it will take some great strategic/aggressive driving to get back ahead during pit stops. Glock/Trulli/Button = never. Barrichello, maybe, but only if his car stays reliable.

And on any re-start after a caution.

KERS may crate an interesting situation where a slower car with KERS is able to pass a non-KERS car if it comes within reach on the straights (especially w the new wing/reduced wake). The non-KERS car will be faster on the corners (better weight distribution) but not have the top end to match the KERS cars. The starting grid will exaggerate this effect. This all points to the KERS dilemna - to include or not include.

Should be fun.

what will be interesting is if the kers car in front creates a train whereby another kers car behind can now catch up to an overall faster non kers car, then overtake it on the straights ...and keep it behind


all this would need driver skill ofcourse...but this kers thing might just mix things up a little more

There's a video on the BBC F1 website. It's one of Murray Walkers highlighted GP's. In it, a rookie in a badly handling, but more powerful car, keeps a train of about 6 blokes behind him the entire race and wins. I hope KERS doesn't cause this versus none KERS cars.

On and through tight bits they were all right behind him, and sometimes even along side, but as soon as he hit a big straight he'd reel away, and any work done by the guys behind was negated.

I think that it would be great if there is a huge light on the cars that will light up when KERS is engaged. Fans can then see when each driver puts KERS into the use.

Or create F1's version of Nascar restrictor plate racing.

Hardly, all the non-KERS car has to do is to chose the right pitstop strategy, bang in some quick laps and say bye, bye ...

Basically nothing will change from last years ...

Oh, sorry I misread previous post and though it was about driving behind during stints.

In case of starts it might be useful but not on every circuit, of course. You need quite a long start/finish straight.

basically u will be forced to overtake in the twisty parts of the circuit , that could get interesting, though it seems the drivers with the balls to try such moves will be in kers cars

A rookie?! You mean the great Gilles Villeneuve, right?

Do a bit of research on some older F1 races mate, you seem to have missed the best part of our sport's history completely (the mid 70s - early 80s was epic from the technological advances side (turbo, ground effect), from the policical side (FISA-FOCA war) and from the racing side).

Well the diffuser has changed, but not the central part as has been expected...

Go to photo 39 here, the outside edges have a kind of quarter circle extension on them. Not seen anything else new, although the bargeboards on one of the front pictures looked strange...

That was a fantastic display of defensive driving by Gilles - if KERs makes this kind of race more regular (the closest top 5 finish in history) and you dont want more of it youre really not a an F1 fan.

I can't remember who it was. I just remember it was a very unlikely win. I'm sure Walker said the guy was new? I can't remember I'll re-watch it later.

As for watching 70-80's GP, I've seen a fair few and enjoyed them, but it's where to get a hold of them?

There is no generic "F1 fan". It's different things to different people. From the small clip that was shown, it just looked like a Trulli Train. It didn't seem that it was the closest top 5 finish because they were all battling for position and swapping places, or because they were all at the limit, it only seemed to be that way because they were all stuck behind Gilles and his superior accelleration on the straights.

Mate, it was definitely Gilles, I know the race you are talking about, and it's very disappointing to note that the name seems to mean nothing to you...

It wasn't a new driver at all - Gilles made his (very spectacular) debut in 1977 in a Mclaren, and I think Teddy Mayer missed a trick signing him up. Another point well made by Tenmantaylor was that you said that the race was not a great one because of the queue of cars, but I disagree majorly - watching that race again and you can see just how much Gilles had to do to keep the other cars from overtaking. It was a fantastic display from the young Canadian, particularly because the Ferrari was hardly the best handling car (it was heavy, with a very weird weight balance due to the sheer size of the Flat-12).

Anyway we are miles off topic right now.

Well... maybe not.

If a KERS (K) car can get in front on the first lap (which I'm sure many a K team manager is thinking), it can slow the pace (a big line of cars). The non-KERS (NK) cars will be faster in the corners, but won't be able to utilize their speed. Next thing you know, the NK cars start to get picked off by the K cars on the straights, and the NK cars start loosing positions.

Then, when you consider what happens during a safety-car period, this process may repeat itself.

However, your point RE pitstops will make more options possible. Do NK teams pit early if caught behind a K car that is slowing his pace? This is all very speculative - I'm sure the K teams (McLaren included) are thinking how they can take advantage of their technology.

In case you're confused, here is a disclaimer:

NOT the K Car we're talking about

Yeah, like the F-Nippon cars.

Well I cannot and shall not apologize for my age! I simply wasn't around for it.
I know Gilles is a big name, but I'm not going to pretend to know all about him to fit in any kind of forum/fan clique. It would also be a cheap way for me to honor him don't you think? I'd much rather learn about him by watching F1 archives, but like I said, I can't seem to get a hold of any.




Please note I said:

From the small clip that was shown [...] it only seemed to be that way because they were all stuck behind Gilles and his superior accelleration on the straights.

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of this race, I'd truly love to watch it. I'm quite prepared to have judged the situation wrong. Like I've said, I only saw a clip. I'm certainly not here to try and establish myself as an infallible god that must argue my post at all costs, and not back-track. I'm here because I love F1. The fact there is a goldmine of "back issues" to catch up on only makes me happier.

Yeah no worries, apologies if it appeared to be an assault on your knowledge. Like when Alonso fended off the much faster Schumacher lap after lap at Imola in 05, it was a textbook exhiition of defensive driving.

Well said. However it is well worth you filling in this particular piece of driver history into your knowledge of F1 as Gilles to many is still regarded as the MAN and when you watch this race and the race against Rene Arnoux in Dijon, you will see why.

Anyway back on topic... for those of you who don't know who Mark Hughes is, here is an interesting article on Mclaren and where he thinks they have a problem and what they are trying to do to fix it...

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=45271

Hamilton's times today (from SportLifePress) :

09:00 Vuelta de instalación

09:43 Pista
1.23:125 *
1.20:850 *
1.20:080 *
1.20:423
1.20:390 Box

10:28 Pista
1.21:643
1.21:062
1.20:906
1.20:627
1.21:342 Box

10:55 Pista Track 30ºC
1.19:629 *
1.19:779
1.20:208
1.20:159
1.21:024 Box

11:31 Pista
1.23:756
1.20:691
1.20:598
1.20:409
1.20:384 Box

12:05 Pista
1.20:541
1.20:193
1.21:047
1.20:564
1.20:272 Box

14:20 Pista
1.20:115
1.19:914
1.19:846
1.30:112
1.21.118 Box

14:51 Pista
1.20:312
1.19:681
1.19:513 *
1.19:563
1.21:812 Box

15:36 Ruedas blandas, tanda de 28 vueltas
1.22:363
1.20:899
1.20:265
1.20:252
1.20:428
1.20:226
1.20:462
1.20:517
1.20:794
1.20:340
1.20:224
1.20:374
1.20:238
1.20:061
1.20:232
1.20:608
1.20:578
1.20:692
1.22:174
1.20:554
1.20:998 aborta su vuelta por una salida de pista aunque vuelve a box por su propio pie.

16:45 Pista
1.22:751
1.21:428
1.22:436
1.22:317
1.22:075
1.22:658
1.22.187
1.22:699
1.22:617
1.24:652 Box

* Mejor vuelta piloto
** Mejor vuelta absoluta


---

A very good long stint in there which we knew, consistently within a few tenths in the mid to low 1 20s. He had more fuel there too. Weird though that times were similar at the beginning of the stint and the end of it. Bad tyre wear? Something to work on anyway. Strange last stint, 2 seconds slower than the gp sim. Either much more fuel in, or they put something rubbish on the car.

So where's the magic diffuser/floor/aero package?


....

1.22:363
1.20:899
1.20:265
1.20:252
1.20:428
1.20:226
1.20:462
1.20:517
1.20:794
1.20:340
1.20:224
1.20:374
1.20:238
1.20:061
1.20:232
1.20:608
1.20:578
1.20:692
1.22:174
1.20:554
1.20:998 aborta su vuelta por una salida de pista aunque vuelve a box por su propio pie.

Very consistent

slash slow

Indeed. I would say encouraging. Virtually no drop off in pace for 20 laps (excluding the first lap). How are one to analyze this?

Well there doesn't seem to be any new aero parts, so are there subtle tweaks or is the speed being gained by just a better setup?

Well, as it was a first run with some different settings it was wise to get a grip on it on the first lap rather then going banzai from the word go.

I know there's a new diffuser.

http://galeria.sprintame.com/album0.html

Picture 5 shows old one, picture 39 shows the new one.

Pics, look, at ...

This diffuser is a new(er) one:
http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/images/5...ton/0180645.jpg

This was the former one (morning picture) :
http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires...0/diapo_190.jpg

The front wing endplate is in different place on this picture (of today)
http://www.latphoto.co.uk/thumbnails/2009/...61150058_PV.jpg
compared to this (of also today) :
http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires...0/diapo_187.jpg

That blackish deflector plate on the front wing endplate is sitting in different places.

subtle - not kidding, so no, willaims type diffuser mores the pity, I wonder if there is any more new parts or is that McLarens load shot?

Its a dreamcatcher.

Diffuser wars latest incarnation;

First solution.


Second solution with some outlet above.


And last one which they use on almost every test.


This is from the third day of Barcelona testing (11.03.2009)


16.03.2009 testing in Jerez (evolution of the previous versions)


What's next?

Very consistent, yes, but around 1.3s slower than Button on a comparable length stint. McLaren were closer in Barcelona weren't they?

One that works I hope.

mein, they should just double decker that sh*t and call it a day

Where's the bird?

I have problems with understanding suspension on this pic;



-upper wishbone
-lower wishbone
-suspension rod

(driveshaft is visible also)

What is the purpose of this rod?

It's a very good looking car, pity it's just not fast (yet).

Regarding what Ron said about the "Melbourne aero package": he said they were only "starting" to test it at Barcelona. It may be that only some parts of the planned Melbourne package (the cur floor, maybe) were run there.

Yes, that does not look conventional.

Looks like a multilink rear suspension.

Maybe so, but we don't know the respective fuel weights. So concentrating solely on Mclaren the key issue has been to make the rear end work and thats why they have been trying to find what is causing the problem in what from the outside seems a haphazard way...Something towards the front of the aero is breaking up the air flow to the rear so it is not producing the down force predicted. It has resulted in tyre wear issues which translated as a big drop off in lap time during a stint. The fact they are now getting consistent lap times can only be seen as encouraging. Don't get me wrong, I still think they have a way to go to be on the pace with Brawn but there are signs they are zoning in on where the problem lies.

Look at the other pics in the diffuser post, totally different suspension.

Yeah those look normal. A double wishbone upper and lower A-arm.
However, the above definitely is an additional arm.

We need someone with some insight in suspensions to comment.

I think it was already there before now that I looked closer.

I think it's the rear trackrod, just lined up with the driveshaft rather than a wishbone leg.

I'm not a technically minded guy but I would have thought the problem they have is generating enough airflow to the diffuser - regardless of it's design. Looking at the undercut sidepods that seem to be extreme on the Brawn and prominent on the Ferrari and others, it seems Mclaren cannot do that whilst the KERS is situated in their pods. And the channels on the Brawn are no doubt allowing large amounts of clean fast air to reach their clever diffuser design - which is able to take advantage of this ample supply. Does that make sense?

It makes sense yes, but it may be a problem caused even further forwards than the sidepods on the Mclaren. They wouldn't have created the design if it didn't work in simulations, but simulations are not always detailed enough to spot clean air being separated and therefore not as clean to an aerodynamic surface as predicted. This seems to be their problem and solving it is dependent on finding what is separating this clean airflow

Mark Hughes has a similar opinion to yours:
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=45271

Ferrari has it too, only it's much closer to the lower wishbone