Msa: McLaren brought updates to the front wing, the diffusor and (Haug: ) ''smaller parts everywhere for more downforce.'' On a three lap qualifying simulation Kovalainen managed to go under the 1:18 barrier at Jerez, but Nakajima did a laptime half a second faster than that still. ''You shouldn't read too much into that. It's well possible that the track had gotten a second faster. What you should be reading into are the statements from the drivers.''

The drivers said the balance was good...Kovalainen also did 8 lap runs with acceptable tyre wear. At the beginning of the test Hamilton had the same experience with a very full fuel tank. However, in comparison with the competitors McLaren lacks grip by 20%. Meanwhile the reasons behind it come to the surface.

In several meetings of the FOTA the teams have revealed information/data about their aerodynamic research, this is to be a basis to work on a savings plan. Anyway, designing/developing the new car it turns out that in 2008 McLaren didn't use their windtunnel and CFD resources as effectively as the other manufacturer teams at all. Only Toro Rosso and Force India were behind McLaren on this unofficial list (which shouldn't be seen as a competition anyway - AFCA).

Apperantly the engineers assumed that the first data that their computer models came up with, would be adequate to form a strong basis. Anaylising things, they oriented themselves on the improvements made year after year, new part after new part under the old regulations. In recent years these improvements were always good enough to stay at the (very) front. But doing so they completely underestimated that the new regulations require greater steps in development. This false estimation has lead to the aerodynamics of the MP4-24 not working as they should. This has surprised everyone, not even the team itself would have thought they could miscalculate in such a way.

Haug is a bit more optimistic after the Jerez test: ''We've found a little bit. But our expectations remain modest.'' Knowing what a strong team McLaren is, all of the competirors expect the Woking-based team to bounce back at some stage during the year. ''They don't write us off.''

Thanks AFCA. So it sounds like the team didn't start a new design from scratch, but tried to evolve earlier designs into the 09 car? Or at least, carried forward aero models from previous years. That's an amazing error. And presumably it means they need a new car...

When I first read that I thought (for an instant) that they made impovements to the front wing, the diffusor and to Haug. What did they do? Put him on a crash diet?

BTW, thanks AFCA. Not good news...You know what they say about killing the messenger, right? Kidding kidding...

I'm rookie at this forum, so, I have a question - who is AFCA?
He always provides insider-like information, so for me it is very interesting where he takes this information

I'm not sure I understand the logic there but thanks AFCA for posting
I'm confident they'll improve as we go along. Looks like championships aren't going to be fought for though...

It's not really something you expect from McLaren indeed, in any case it's clear it's a pretty big problem that requires time to be solved.

He's a very talented and very generous Ferrari fan who reads a lot in both English speaking and foreign media, particularly German and Italian (e.g. Msa, amus, autosprint la gazetta etc) which we don't see too much of in English.

We're very fortunate he takes the time to translate and summarise that media coverage for us here

So true. He is a one-man F1 info team working for the benefit for all of us AFCA

I read the news a bit differently.

It seems for me that McLaren were extremely lucky with previous regulations because they hit the sweet spot with aerodynamics immediately and year by year they were just evolving. They didn't use as much wind tunnel and CFD as others because they didn't need that - aero regulations stayed the same, and their first model was perfect.

After regulations changed they couldn't anymore evolve from previous years, so started from blank sheet of paper. And this time they weren't so lucky. The model gave initially false data. Calibration of wind tunnel ahead of them I guess.

Good lord. Looks like peope at the factory are going to have to be working flat out just to get near the front if they're potentially months behind in development time. What I find hard to believe is that McLaren are usually the team that develops very quickly, so obviously a lot of hard work goes on, so this time round what, they hit their targets and didn't push it any further?

The positive upshot of this I would suppose is that it wasn't the design tools giving false data, the team just didn't design ambitiously enough? Or am I reading it wrong?

Sounds a bit like sudden revenge of Adrian ;)

I think CFD did give false data as team assumed that what worked in previous years will work for 2009 too, while reality was that changes are so big it went beyond what their non-updated model could accurately predict, hence the miscalculated data.

I totally feel like a smartass now as I was guessing this could be it back in February.

Seems amazing that McLaren with the best facilities of everyone is the only team to fall foul with the new regulations

The only question is it a gradual change to fix, a complete B spec car or concentrate on new year time?

I think we are now in an even better position to understand the extensive use of flow viz and that 2008 wing.

Mmm I don't find it very clear, but that would fit in with all the flow-vis and birdcage stuff they were doing. In any case we have to hope they've got everything calibrated now, with only race Fridays for testing.

See, the way I understood it was that it wasn't an error of calculating the aero of the car, it was a lack of amount of development. The original model from their calculations they took as the base, and aimed to improve that at the same rate as they did with the cars under the old aero rules. It was the phrase "doing so they completely underestimated that the new regulations require greater steps in development.", implying that it wasn't that the wind tunnel and cfd were giving them the wrong numbers, just that they weren't chasing better designs hard enough?

Like I said, it seems so strange to think that McLaren would do this, that I could well just be reading it wrong.

Very true. They tested with the 08 wing because it was a known quantity and their data regarding this piece was correct. This brings to light how far out their sims were, because the calculated their 09 wing would provide as much downforce as their 08 wing and it clearly didnt. This looks like a serious recalibration issue. A 20% aero shortfall is a serious amount in F1 terms. The only good thing is that the top teams are now facing diminishing returns in their pursuit for aero gains, whilst Mclaren do not. 20% more aero is at least 1 second.

Adrian, Adrian, we'll see how those four bulls end up against the McLaren in the long run. I don't see the newest Newey car a winner.

I fear you could be proven right.

I wonder how much McLaren compromised this years preparations due fighting last year's championship....

and he's Dutch! (at least I think so)

IF it turns out as bad as it now sounds, maybe the myth about best facilities should be questioned. I could imagine that by nature of their PR style they certainly make the most noise about their facilities, yet that doesn't neccessarily mean they are really better than everyone elses.

Or maybe like with PCs, a perfectly configured 2-year-old system may easily outflank a badly configured state-of-the-art machine.

However, its important to remember that clever old Bernie really believes they are still sandbagging ...

/irony

If only.

McLaren will use KERS at Melbourne

After Renault and Ferrari, the McLaren Mercedes team has confirmed that it will use its Kinetic Energy Recovery System in Australia this weekend. This was said by Mercedes boss Norbert Haug in the German magazine 'Auto Motor und Sport'.

bluffers-guide

Klick

I wish

So that means they're bluffing with their form?

I hope we beat at least Force India and Toro Rosso, that's my minimum expectation. I'm not greedy and Haug has convinced me telling a dozen times we're an underdog. I can cope with it now, thanks Norbert!

Trust me you never get used to it. 2005 still hurts for us. the sinking feeling at malaysia that there were no bags of sand involved, the spanish debacle after the imola hope (Todt: "we can 1-2 every race"), bahrain gearbox giving up after 12 laps and Barri retiring because his tyres were shot kimi and fernando sniggering on the french podium as michael barely made 3rd and basically every race there was something like this...

That's if McLaren are as bad as Ferrari were then which i'm not so sure of.

OIt was more down to tyres that season wasnt it? Michelin did a Bridgestone ala 2004. I still dont know how the F2005 was so bad, it was an evolution of the F2004 and some of the aero ideas were good, just didnt seem to make the car fast :/

Yeah tyres had a lot to do with it, Ferrari never said this during the season given their close relationship with Bridgestone but basically in Spain and Bahrain the tyres couldn't resist the whole race. Ferrari retired cars in both races citing some other failure but they were just covering bridgestone.

But the car was none too great either. If you remember Ferrari had to start development from scratch in july 2004 because the aero regs were changed, for one reason or another they screwed up the diffuser design which they couldn't change because of the long lead time of changing the gearbox casing. Basically the F2005 was way too conservative compared to the R26 and MP4-20. That and it was unrealiable at the start of the season, they only had 2 gearboxes for Bahrain for schumi and one of them failed in practice, the other in the race. They then stopped deveoping the F2005 after france and focussed all on the 248.

Oh and the F2004M was , well, shite.

Anyway really, really sorry for going off topic.

1 bad season in a decade and you're comparing that to McLaren's form in these 10 years?wtf you ferrari fans have no clue whatsoever.
McLaren has struggled to remain at the front since the early 90s,Schumacher gave you 5 world titles and god knows how many constructor titles and you're moaning about a couple of races 3 years ago.

McLaren might be going through a bad year after some great seasons, it will feel a bit like Ferrari's 2005. Anyway last post because this thread's about the 4-24 and also because i'm not interested in a rubbish arguement.

if their windtunnel and cfd was useage lower than the other teams for 09, then they certainly where using more than the others on 08, i guess its no surprise tho

Say McLaren have a Brawn type diffuser in the works and easily obtainable by just uncapping the present one, but has being suggested they are waiting for the furor over diffusergate to come to a conclusion before deciding if to use it or not would it not be prudent to run one of the cars with a fully legal diffuser and fun the other with a suspect diffuser?

isnt scrutineering before FP1?

No idea, how long does it take to change a diffuser?

Maybe a few hours unless its connected to the gearbox or something

I don't think there's such a thing as a hidden diffuser. They would have track tested it, especially after the rumored CFD and simulation probs. The first races are just going to be disappointing for us McLaren fans I fear, but there's plenty to look out for imo.

I wander if a bad year (with the testing bans) will do McLaren good for the next few years? They could effectivly use the whole year as one huge testing session for next year?! Look how good it did Brawn...

This, I feel, is the correct interpretation.


The article isn't talking about absolute usage, but the efficiency of use.

They won't, there's too much at stake. A low key team like Force India could, expectations are pretty low from them anyway, but McLaren can not.
Sponsors won't accept a year 'testing', they want to be in the spotlight by having their car at the sharp end of the grid.

2004 was a poor year, yet 2005 was a stunner and reliability cost McMerc a easy championship.

On the other point it does look like McMerc have been not agressive enought with this car. MW said they made it as coustomisable as possiable. I wander if they should have stuck with one idea and gone super agressive with it.

Maybe. The thing is, if so, what race will be like Indy, where McLaren have a chance of winning?

I think they did this because they were slow with the process, putting all eggs on improving last years car. It won them a championship since 10 years so I cant blame them about that.

I dunno, I think it was more a lack of direction form the ofset... (a little like the china GP in 2007 where not makeing a direct desicion (to pit hamilton) ultimatly cost them a world championship).

Maybe a pitfall of the matrix managment structure.

It wont because the rules wont be so different and most things that the teams develop for their 09 cars will likely work with their 2010 cars as well.
Thats why Mclaren and Ferrari stayed competitive from 07 to 08 even though most teams started working on their cars early while they worked on their cars until the end of the year.

Would you really want that? Every hard fought 5th is worth more that that "win", IMO.

Anyway, let's wait those last days until declaring the 2009 season utterly lost to McLaren.

While I was sniffing problem as soon as they put the 2008 wing on the car, by now I think the official statements of Haug and Whitmarsh have switched to the other extreme. I expect a 2006 rather than a 2004.

Do you want to repeat that incase I didn't read it right!

Unless I am wrong, you think that with the 2008 wing, you thought they had problems, but now you thinking with the curious doom and gloom statements that you are expecting them to be competitive?