I'm still a bit confused about KERS: have they banned it or is everyone just saying it doesn't work so de facto it's banned even if de jure it isn't?

I'd have thought given past improvements in the use of technology it would merely be a matter of when not if it becomes competitive. Ferrari were rather sniffed at when the semi-auto box came in but within 3 or 4 years everyone had it. If it has been banned is it just so that nobody has something else to spend cash on?

And on the Mclaren front: since it came off the car doesn't exactly seem to have gone any quicker does it? Or is it the worrying thought it would actually be even worse???

As I basically said at the top of the page, I really think that it's the ghetto booty and lack of sidepod undercutting necessitated by the Mercedes KERS that is the issue, and until that is rectified we won't see any difference.

The 24 is sooooo radical, that it goes against the principle of a formula One raceing car design,... evolution not revolution... Mclaren's gamble failed, that is it.

Newey lead the RBR much better in this sense... at least shape has some similarity with the last year's model..

I don't consider the 24 to be radical (as in a high risk design concept). The most radical bit is it's adoption of KERS. The conservative approach may be part of the problem with it (when compared with it's rivals).

Yes, the radical design starts with the BGP 001 and ends with the RB5.

i think part of the reason they didnt run kers at silverstone is the lack of heavy braking to charge it... and i think if your not going to run it, you do need to shrink the sidepods...

Anyone seen the widget yet? It's got live telemetry and other stuff. Fans only need look I guess!

Now I'm missing Mika

Awesome, cheers ;)

Brilliant video!!!!!

MP4/4 Shakedown

MP4/4 pre-Goodwood shakedown - Outtakes

200 pages... of hope! nice to mark the occasion with a proper macca.

The MP4-4 sounds just like a Hayabusa on start-up!

hunnylander, nice clip.

Is it possible to 'channel' the design spirit from 1988 and bring it to bear on the current car?

What a car, what a noise and what history!

Why isn't F1 like that anymore?

Just checked the Twitter page, and thefifthdriver has said there will be tweaks to the front wing and floor 'as usual' and hoping for more but 'too early to call yet"

No mention of sidepods etc. So i think come nurburgring we can expect to be disappointed in the 'updates' after so much hype about new pobs/kersless cars.

Oh well.

Cool clips, cheers again Hunnylander

mmm. Not so good. Guess we have to wait and see. I reckon after this update (however big or small it is) that's it for the 24. ...Time to put full effort behind the 25.

I dont see it all that way, I think McLaren know they have a chance to win in Hungary, so I think, if this update is small for nurburgring, and there are larger updates in the pipeline, they will be accelerated forward, with the drop of kers for the hungaroring round, to go all out for victory there.

Yes, nice iconic car, but do you remember how tedious the season was? The only relief was that the drivers were allowed to race each other. Rose tinted spectacles.

The underlined part made all the difference, I think. At least to McLaren, Senna or Prost fans. The rest might have had a bit of a hard time, though...

Win in Hungary? What are you on chap? lol

McLaren aren't going to be winning anything for a few years. They've not just lost out this year with a fundamentally wrong car, they've also missed out on developing systems for one that does work. McLaren managed to continue development on a Newey car for a couple years and got away with it. now however they have next to nothing in terms of inspiration. They seem to be able to produce a balanced chassis which allows easy set up (unlike BMW 08) but other than that there isn't anything that suggests the MP4-25 is going to be any better.

Who knows if any team is going to have a competitive car next year, it's way too early to speculate on that I'd have thought.

I wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree with you there. They are not idiots and they have the funding. Ok, they ****ed up bad this year but it happens. I don't get where all this "newey's concept" comes from.

I wish someone will give us facts and not silly speculation, because as far as I can tell it's all just armchair opinions and "he said she said" while in reality very few REALLY know what their talking about.

But in case you're an aerodynamicist I retract every single word of the post above...

I love the MP4/4 but wouldn't wish for F1 to return to turbos.

I reckon they sound bloody horrible!

This will always be how F1 should sound...

Alesi's Ferrari V12

Berger's McLaren V10

Utter nonsense!, you are ignoring the fact that there isn't anything to suggest the MP4-25 is going to be this bad (or any worse) either. i think its very naive of you to even think that Mclaren will not win "for a few years". i find it strange that some people think that Newey was the "god" behind Mclarens success, i mean yes he is a talented man but mclaren have got lots more talented people in the team that do as good a job.

About winning: i know we 'might' not win a race this year (tho im still hopefull we can), but im definitely sure we will be up there again next season.

I love everything about turbos, the power and the sound. The V6s of the 1980s had such a low, droning roar, don't know how anyone cannot like their sound. T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVyxRhgpIGQ...feature=related

The onboard with Brundle reinforces my opinion...they just sound like absolute power

That allied to the fact that Newey conceptualised as many shitboxes as he did gooduns. Just look at last years Red Bull - It wasn't that quick, and the front trackrod would disintergrate if you even farted near it

Name me a car in the last 20 years that has won a championship without Newey or Brawn being heavily influential in the design or management. All I can think of is the Renault. Other than that the facts speak for themselves. you aint got Newey or Brawn on your team you just aint gonna win jack!

The Renault motor was its biggest downfall. The b-spec Ferrari engined car didn't do too bad did it !

MP4/5, MP4/6.

Well Williams came close a few times without having newey or brawn. They won races at least and were often very competitive (especially before 2004). The issue here is not with winning championships without newey (or brawn for that matter), but at least being in contention.

Most of us, I think, can live with being in contention, even if we don't win the championship. It's much better than the sorry state we're in at the mo. After all, your orignal statement said "not going to win anything for years" after you replied to kids like ash after he suggested a win in hungary (as opposed to winning the championship).

Personally I don't find those V10s and V12s to sound any better than the current V8s. Maybe they are much better when you hear them on the track, but when i'm watching on the tv they don't sound any better.

The best ever cars on track were the MP4/6's that we were on for the 1991 Japanese GP.

The qual laps Berger and Senna produced are among the best and the sound of the Honda V12 screaming just before 130R at 200mph is as beautiful as it can get.

mp4/23, newey had 'no' influence on the design.

I don't know for sure but did newey design the 92 williams? and ross brawn isn't an aerodynamicist hes a technical director, nor is he a designer. Rory Burne was the man behind the winning Ferrari's along with Tombazis. And that's evident, Tombazi's joined mclaren and we had the quickest car in the field, gonna kiss neweys ass for that one too? That isn't a coincidence either in my opinion.

The 2001 mclaren was a dog, the 2002 mclaren was a dog, the 2003 mclaren (had it even made the track) was a dog, the mp4/19A was a dog, the mp4/21 was a dog, jeeze newey designed all those cars too. And in my opinion newey's first attempt at a red bull wasn't great either in 07.

Last year's red bull wasn't that great. I know people enjoy bashing mclaren while they're down but this isn't the thread for it.

(Brawn has been a designer and aero guy in the past. He may not have direct involvement with concepts but directing resources appears to be his strength which comes from his engineering past)

But you are still acknowledging that you need some 'heavy weights' in your team to succeed. I was told on high authority that Newey excels when he's given a blank piece of paper rather than 'developing' already existing concepts. This will explain RBRs pace right now.

The enormity of the problems regarding the MP4-24 does suggest a fundamental lack of 'something' at base design level. The MP4-24 isn't just average it's awful. I don't know the team or who the members are but for a team to go from WDC to last in one season shows a serious problem with the structure of a team. McLaren seem to be able to develop an already 'good' concept (MP4-23). But without a working concept they are left wanting. Yes 08 affected them (which in hindsight was worth it) but Ferrari dod the same but appear to have a better grasp than them.

This presents a major problem for them. OK I know I am stating the complete obvious here, but McLaren could be in some trouble for years to come. While others have been developing and understanding the aero regulations more and more McLaren are still trying to figure out the first steps. All Macca have is a good chassis... thats it.

it does seem that neweys reputation is much higher with "fans" than it is with his peers. Professional jealousy? maybe, but i think the genious idea is a little overstated.
Newey is Mr wind tunnel... he benefited somewhat from starting early, as brawn did, also before the cost cutting restrictions started to bite into wind tunnel based development. I dont think anyone can assume this years front runners will carry over into next season.
i remember reading not so long ago that mclaren were suggested to be doing badly because they had no one that could draw on experiance from the previous pre aero dominated generation of car design. Well, neil oatley is still there, so thats clearly rubbish isnt it.

Neil oatley by the way was chief designer for MP4/12, which was possibly the best car of the season but for a weak engine that year. Newey benefited hugely from turning up at mclaren just at the right time. He didnt turn them around becuae they already had arguably the best car on the grid, certainly towards the end of the season.
Interestingly the wiki entry has mp4/12 designer as adrian newey, which needs correcting really...anyone who is registered user may like to do an edit

Fair points! I just get this dreaded feeling that McLaren could be in serious trouble. I think people think naively that this is just a blip. Had Honda/Brawn not had the new regulations to play with they could still be at the back of the grid at best mid pack. The crucial head start every team has on McLaren means they will have to come up with a miracle to even be close next year.

Without major regulations changes I don't think we'll see RBR and Brawn suddenly lose form. Brawn of course financially might not keep up, but they won't drop to the back all of a sudden.

In an ideal world McLaren should have stopped work on the MP4-24 as soon as it hit the road. They knew it was turd... and you can't polish a turd... even McLaren! McLaren could be heading for some lonely Hondaesque years at the back

trust me, no refueling is a major regulation change.

You have a very pessimistic view of things at McLaren based on your 'instinct'. Let's just wait and see shall we?

http://www.mclaren.com/f1season/2009/germany/preview.php

we aren’t expecting any major upgrades for this weekend

Cheers hunnylander. Expectations have been duly lowered! The gist seems to be that there will be some improvements, but not for this race. Oh well. A race to video not watch perhaps.

There's lots of sunshine and showers happening over there at the mo. That's been the pattern for the past few weeks. You never know what might happen in those type of conditions!

The latest plan:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76658

Something big for Silverstone

Big upgrade for Germany, we'll try to push it for Silverstone

Big upgrade for Germany, though it might delay to Hungary

Big upgrade for Hungary and/or Valencia


Well, don't hold your breath, I see the pattern.


I'm not disappointed, I understand them. This is a clear sign, they have switched focus and resources for the MP4-25, any big rush for the 24 is counterproductive for the 25.

Yep. Sure will be a 'muted' performance on MB's home turf compared with previous years. At least we're forewarned.

I think McLaren may have found/made a breakthrough with some of the problems of MP4-24 at Silverstone and as a result have delayed and perhaps scrapped the package which was planned for Germany which was based on the understanding of the problems prior to the flow-vis tests at Silverstone. However i am only speculating. Perhaps they have delayed some parts such as the new sidepods as KERS should be useful at the Nurburgring

Not much to look forward to but as the 1999 race(which i watched yesterday) shows anything can happen with a bit of rain...

Meh, 2006 deja-vu. Quantum leaps, steps and sh** ...

I don't get that piece.

It starts by saying McLaren are going to adopt a more considered approach.

Then it throws in the quote from Whitmarsh last week saying that they ought to chuck pieces at the car even if they don't understand how or why they work.

Finally it goes back to saying that the team is planning to follow a fairly defined schedule of introducing more parts. Unless someone has a brainwave anyway.

Without the quote from Whitmarsh it would make more sense.