Without meaning to upset any of the MW fans out there but realistically ... Mark is 32, he is quite honestly past the age where people expect he ll develop. IMO RedBull will pit him into a Barichello role, they clearly think Vettel is the best thing since sliced bread and potentially a champion, they d more than likelly to focus on developing Vettel.

Now *IF* Newey pulls something amazing out of the bag and *IF* Vettel isnt very steady in terms of performance then yeah maybe Mark will come out looking good but honestly, even if he beats Vettel I think most of the paddock will attribute that to Vettel having a bad season rather than Mark having a great one.

Are the teams limited to 1 car on track at once during winter testing?

Mark will no doubt still be on the simulator or still at the least attending the odd test and keeping dialoque with the engineers. I'd expect he'd be able to figure out aspects of the car by sitting in on debriefs with Vettel and the engineers.

No there is no 1 car on track limit. There is a mileage limit, and there is a budget limit, so I would guess since RB doesnt seem to have anything ready yet to test in terms of 09 aside from slicks they are giving Vettel some mileage, and time to get familiar with the team/car.

I m sure when the 09 parts start to roll out most of the testing will be both Vettel and Webber on track.

Sure, Mark wont get faster the older he gets. But seriously, it's not like he is suffering from arthritis, a stiff haunch or anything like that. In fact he is the quickest teammate Vettel will have had so far. Vitantonio and Seabass certainly are not as quick as Mark is. And Mark is much more experienced than any former teammate of Vettel.

So, if Vettel beats Mark that would be quite an impressive performance. But I really don't think that should be carved in stone as of now. If you expect that from Vettel you're only putting him under more pressure than what is actually needed. His first job should be not to fall behind as DC did. The young German has plenty of time to become the champion that he potentially is.

Beating Webber will be a difficult task, nevertheless I think Vettel will do it. He proved that he can beat drivers in faster cars, why not a driver in the same car then?

Mark seems to be a polite fellow, being one of few racing individuals who always were nice to MS, so, as Michael's former fan, I want to now reciprocate, and do not want to upset his fans either, yet I am suprised how highly he is being regarded in here (maybe I didn't pay enough attention to him yet).

Simply put, with Mark I am missing the "wow" factor over some feat of proportions similar to what young Seb had pulled at Monza. What are roots of such deep conviction then that he is going to destroy his new partner? I hate to say this, but unless Vettel falls in pieces and starts drinking, I think more off that Mark is on his way to retirement, because he will have tough time. (Sorry guys..)

I don't think this is hear say, 'cause wasn't it Sir Frank Williams who said this?

Btw, yeah, it's more likely it was Webber than DC. DC would've said "f**kin' hell", not "bloody hell."

Michael's former fan? You don't like him anymore?

We Webber supporters have a tough job. He has had some poor reliability and seems to find new ways to DNF from podium positions (Singapore this year and Fuji last year being prime examples). Webber's potential second place at Fuji had a lot of the wow factor in it for me. Similarly, getting his Jag on the front row at Malaysia. His choice of going to Williams instead of Renault seemed like a good idea at the time (they won the last race of 2004) in retrospect Renault against Fernando would have been the smarter option.

While the quality of his team mates certainly is debatable, he has out qualified all of them. Of those, arguably only Heidfeld has beaten him on race performance. I think we just want to see him get a half decent car and a chance to fight at the pointy end of the grid on a regular basis. If he is found wanting, so be it. I just don't want to be left wondering what if?

BTW.... good Mark Webber interview on BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/7716921.stm

The BBC got his name wrong, as those of us who watch Channel 10 know it is: "Australia's Mark Webber" not "F1's Mark Webber".

ahh why didn't they ask him about throwing up i his helmet!!

Obviously the BBC isn't as professional as Ten's Greg Rust - hopefully they correct that glaring error for next season...

It's still a win for RBR... they will be happy to have a car in 4th (Vettel) and a car in 7th (Webber), then a car in 7th (Webber - Vettel's still ahead in the Toro Rosso!) and a car in 14th (Coulthard) or more commonly behind the pit wall waiting for collection from the track recovery tow truck team...

Whilst I would not like to put money on the MW SV fight in 09 I just cant understand how many of you think this will pan out the way you do.

V8 if you were serious ( i fully accept I have missread your post )
You are saying the STR and the RBR were on an equal footing in the latter quarter of 08
From this you draw the conclusion that if MW was able to place the car 7th SV could put it 4th but DC would still be 14th.

are you saying SV would have had 1s on DC ?
your assumption would also suggest SB is faster than MW by 0.1-0.2s a lap

Even as a MW fan I expect him to have a hard time with SV in 09.
But you guys are giving SV what would amount to a 0.3-0.5s advantage over MW.
If thats true, NR is shit DC was so far past it in 07 he should not have been aloud on the track and no way in hell did NH deserve his BMW drive in 07 ( in 08 he was shit so not looking at that)

By this measure SV would have been fighting for the WDC if he had had the RBR drive in 08 and at least would have had many podiums and places 2,3, or 4th. I think this is stretching the facts a litle too much.

please forgive me if i have mis read anything ( 4 glasses of wine and counting)

I am not sure that I can put numbers by how much one driver is "better" than the other one, but my instinct is telling me that in equal cars SV will be not only match to Mark, but will take a fight to him. Now, we all know that car design and set up very seldom suits both drivers alike, and I would expect Seb to fall behind Mark in first 6 races, but in second half of the season after he gets used to new stuff - watch out (and I think Mark knows that too).

I do think Mark is in for a hard time. This past season was not a good one because he had a few opportunities and didn't take them (Silverstone and the qualy where he binned it chasing Alonso and the car looked FAST) whereas vettel made all his stick.

I think Mark will be faster in melbourne (surely the best driver on that circuit) but by 4 or 5 races in I think vettel will have him.

The testing thing is not good, if Vettel sits int he car all winter Mark is lost come February.

You don't know about the teams it seems. The difference between the RBR4 and the STR was simply the engine. The chassis / aero upgrades were the same after the engine upgrade. A couple of times STR ran more advanced aero than did RBR. The cars dynamics are the same - so Vettel has nothing to get used to. The cars are the same. The power and its delivery is different, but that is now being equalized, the FIA has recognized that Ferrari and Mercedes developed their engines and improved power and delivery, and they have said power will be equalized again. So the Renault engine should perform as well as the Ferrari engine did last year. Hopefully.

General acceptance is that looks are deceiving, as things are never the same. For example, is Seb taking with him his racing and set up engineers who know Red Bull car inside out, or he gets someone new? I am fine with someone who thinks that it doesn't matter, but I for one think that it makes life slightly more complex.

But then, maybe technical changes are so many and impacting, that any know-how of last years gets wasted under new regulations, because just basic principles of racing technology remain the same, while everything else is new to all; we see.

The Finnish publication reported interviewing Ferrari, about Kimi, and they reported his difficulty with the BS tyres, in getting them warm. It took 5 laps for him to get them right, and his pole runs suffered. He also said that two drivers who suffered from the warm up issues with the BS tyres were Webber and Rosberg. And Webber's accuracy will improve with slicks. I would not right him off right now.

The quote comes from the F2008 thread, post number 245.

I dont think anyone who rates MW highly is righting him off.
But many who dont rate MW are thinking SV is the real deal and as such they cant understand how anyone could think MW will hold a candle to SV.

Where I think Mark will be in danger is his "apparent" inability through luck or error to nail his opportunities and bring home the big finishes.

For out right speed, not one of MWs team mates have ever matched him in that department and that is all we have to go on.

As usual an F1 driver needs to have a top car to win, he also needs to beat his team mate.
This is where DC fell down.
So far SV and MW have fulfilled their parts, lest hope the RB5 fulfills the other part.

I agree with the opinion that Webber's drivig will improve with new slick tyre. As Buton already starting to voice his potential the drivers seems to be in general excited about the control on their race car via slick.

In the race situation the question however remain in the relative performances and the adaptability to the new equipments, especially next year. WHile Experiece of Mark Webber should let him edge in complex race situations the speed which S has shown in the recent races are impressive. I blindly think that SV will adopt to kers as quick as Webebr or even quicker.

Webber will outpace Vettel, yet the SV's ability to end race high is not to be neglected...

It seems there is always an excuse for failure.

Engines, tyres, driving styles blah blah blah... if driver A beats driver B under one regulation in one season then he has done exactly that - beaten him.

The difference btw SV and MW in 2008 was an out-dated car in the first half of the season for SV and a reportedly under-performing engine in the second half for MW. This is the best intra-team comparison you could possibly have/make, and quite frankly SV murdered all three of the other Red Bull drivers.

Well Seb also upped his driving during the season. While he was involved in 3 crashes in the first 4 races he did a lot better later. Coincidentally his improvement came with the new chassis and the rumored improved Ferrari engine.

Mark on the other hand was pretty consistent. The records show only 2 technical DNFs, one of which probably would have been a podium. But he suffered a lot more bad luck again. Remember Oz, where the freak break down of his right brake disc in Q1 eventually got him into the first corner crash? Or Malaysia, where the team had some issue with the fuel system and thus he had to run overweight most of the race? One can certainly name a few more of that kind. Even the 2 technical DNFs, one caused by Timo's debris who crashed right in front of Mark, the other one caused by a damn train. Once again he lost so many points and better finishes due to f* ups, that were not on his part.
Speed wise Mark did a good job more or less everywhere except for Valencia. Even in Monza he was doing a good job driving around P4 and got kicked in the nuts by some lucky one-stoppers as the changing conditions suited their strategies perfectly. It wasn't as if Seb really devastated him at any race when they had relatively comparable cars. So i don't think Seb can do that if they have identical cars.

Btw, I don't have an agenda against Seb. I'm really happy he's driving for us next year. The guy is gonna be a hell of a driver in the future. I just can't stand the overly unjustified criticism against Mark. Some people come in here without having had a look at RBR the whole season and seem to think they know everything from reading the final standings..

I love this...
In the 2008 RBR thread i asked the question... who would become RBR fans and not just fans of MW/DC

From the dialog in this thread and the subtle change in reference to "our team" i see there is a good chance RBR may develop into a team with a sold fan base of its own and not just the drivers.

RBR fan club with no Red Bulletin is unthinkable, even more so those RBR girls... The one who missed the Brazil especially!


I guess Vettelwill challenge WDC soon, very soon. I want to see him beating Lewis and racing against Kimi and Fernando...

Someone crashing into you can also be deemed as "bad luck".

Update.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...0-11088,00.html

oh dear

6-10 weeks recovery from a serious fracture is about normal.
considering Mark had only just said he would not be in the car for 8 weeks this will not be too disastrous for 09.

Unless its worse than they have indicated.


Mark has proven to be rather hardy over the years so I would not anticipate this being a real problem.
May even force him to take a little relaxation time for a change.

Sweet Jesus that is my fault. Dead serious my first thought when I heard he was rallying was "if he gets hurt he's stuffed for the year".

Not good.

As someone posted here once: "Shit Happens. But mainly to Mark Webber".

They're not reporting who was a fault in the accident but bloody hell that man is cursed! Perhaps it won't affect his seat time in the car but it will surely compromise his fitness regime.

You are not serious! He's run or at least sponsored this getting bigger event for many years now. He was on a push bike by the way. There is a thread on it guys. Page two is Mark Webber injured

F1 cars have much higher g forces under braking and also in high speed corners, for longer time.

Won't this affect Webber? I think he won't be able to get on track as quickly compared to the two wheeled guys.

But no clambouring all over the F1 car is needed!

I am really curious to see the new RB 2009. The winning move will be Vettel. For sure.

Both Buemi and Brendon Hartley have been drafted in to cover Webber during testing in Jerez on December 15-17. Buemi will be in the car for all three days, Hartley for the first day and Vettel for the remaining two.

strange with DC saying he would be assisting RBR, maybe he won't now, with his media job? He would have been the logical choice to replace Webber for testing I'd have thought.

Isn't he about to become a Dad, if he hasn't already?

Pretty sure the missus would appreciate him jetting off to do some testing...

About the only quote from Christian Horner is: "has a lot of other duties at the moment."

Which I'm guessing means his recent arrival.

Young guys undoubtedly are gunning for Webber' job...

As they have been since MW started in F1
As they will be till the day he retires.

They have all fallen by the way side except NR and he has hardly set the world on fire since then.

Funny thing about MWs team mates, they all go DOWN in stock after racing him, never up.
Even though some high profile people rated and still rate MW very highly, many others do not.
So getting whipped by MW is a negative for any young driver looking to make his mark.

With this in mind SV HAS to beat MW and even that will not get him what he is after.
He will need to get several podiums and the odd win to secure a drive for Ferrari Mclaren or Renault.

Many people get very excited about this "proven race winner" rubbish.
Guess what JB and RB and DC were all "proven race winners" and none of them could do anything in the cars they had for 08.
The STR3 was a very good car and well set up by the STR team.
SB was ahead of DC and MW most of the times SV was up the front.

Whilst you cant take anything away from SV for his win and some great drives, you also can not compare his performances to MW and DC.
RBR engineers estimated the performance difference in the cars as 0.5-0.8s
MW said the power difference was worth ~0.3-0.4s
SV after driving the RB4 said his car was better and not just in the power department.

Assuming Mark gets into the car for race one, 09 will be a very interesting year for RBR and fans of MW/SV
Interesting...not great as I dont expect them to be able to get in the top 8 regularly.
Rule changes suit the bigger cashed up teams.
Expect RBR STR Force India and Williams to fall to the back in 09

P.S. most MW fans i know are SV fans as well

The local paper have reported that Autosport have placed Webber in the Top 10 drivers for 2008 - nothing else mentioned in regards to who the other drivers are in the list.

I don't suscribe to Autosport so can't read the story - where have they rated Vettel?

Above him. They are judgements across a wide range of people, and they add up the scores.

They should do it twice IMO - mid season and at the end of the season. The end of season retrospective is false IMO. As an example, Alonso was shocking for the first half of the season - and he even admitted it. MW was fast and close to faultless. Hamilton made lots of mistakes too - and Massa was hopeless when behind and in the wet (ignoring the last race). Yet imagine who the top racers were? Although Kubica was up there too ... and he deserved to be IMO.

I do subscribe but didnt see and cant find the report.
I have no doubt that on an 08 report card SV would be rated higher than MW by most commentators.
I know I rate him higher than Mark for 08.

But that is never an assesment of one driver over another.
Its about opportunities and making the most of them.
SV made the best out of what he was given, I dont think anyone doubts that.
MW may have also but its too hard to tell, may have been his notorious luck that robbed him some podium finishes.
May have been his inability to convert who knows.

09 will give us the best driver to driver comparison F1 can give.

Personally I want to see MW dominate SV by ~0.1-0.3s on average and see him end up 2-3 places higher overall.
If he doesn't I will be disappointed and I have no doubt so will he.

Was a small snippet in the Melbourne MX paper today - page 18.

I too would love to see MW own SV however I have a feeling that it won't happen - but I would love to be wrong.

Found it ;)

Interesting list

I agree with you MP.
It has been influenced more by the latter 1/3 of the season than the season as a whole.

Have to say also that I dont rate FM or LH highly for 08.
I think both McLaren and both Ferrari drivers were very sub par this year.
They all made many mistakes (many more than you would have expected of past champions)

The final result was almost entirely a reflection of car performance than driver.
I find it hard to see how any of them performed at a standard to justify the drive.
Thats not to say they were not fast but they were all so inconsistent.

AP would have made mince meat of all of them in his day.

Antonio Pizzonia?! They weren't that bad were they?

ok I am guessing you are joking and it made me laugh.

just in case you were not.
AP = Alan Prost
Pizza boy was a joke and does not deserve an acronym

Don't worry - I knew who you were meaning.

Although even Antonio would have found it hard to spin more times than Felipe at Silverstone

Can you post this top10 guys?