OK my apologies, I see what happened. They show Vettel park the car then five nminutes later they show a Red Bull spinning during commercial, over here they show ads but the race continues in a tiny box to the top lef tof screen, I saw yellow and figured it was webber but that was the roll hoop so it was Vettel.

In that case, super effort in the wet from Mark, dry pace still a worry.

I still think you are off your rocker. His dry pace was excellent when in clean air, he just wasn't able to make the most of it as he was stuck behind KERS cars so often. And he DID pass them eventually.

hi fastest lap was 5th, a 37.7 - 0.8s faster than Vettel, 0.2 down on RB - but - a full second slower than JB though.

his laps on wets were around 2seconds faster than the rest of the field. including two of the guys on the podium (he even drove around the outside of NH at one point)

as for the Kimi situation, once he got past Alonso, he pulled away 5 sec in 2 laps, taking the gap to kimi to under 1.

here's some interesting times for you at the end champ.

lap 22 when rain hit....
2 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 22 17:40:08 25.814 53.028
2 16 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 22 17:40:23 27.256 55.412
2 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 22 17:40:27 25.993 54.045
2 23 Rubens BarrichelloBrawn-Mercedes 22 17:40:28 31.613 1:00.781
1 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 22 17:40:39 30.335 30.335
1 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW 22 17:40:40 29.465 29.465
1 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 22 17:40:47 31.748 31.748
1 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 22 17:40:47 29.152 29.152
2 14 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 22 17:40:48 25.263 52.747
1 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 22 17:41:04 31.041 31.041
2 10 Timo Glock Toyota 22 17:41:09 25.814 53.680
2 15 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 22 17:41:10 25.966 55.103

in the next seven laps he went from 9th to 3rd. two he passed in the pit stop (FM, NP), and two pitted and gifted him a spot (RB, NR) but the others he passed on track.

this is when he and Jenson came in for inters cause Glock was belting it.....
3 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 29 17:54:38 25.368 1:18.396
3 14 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 29 17:55:01 24.550 1:17.297

and a lap later when he and glock went in for extremes.....
3 10 Timo Glock Toyota 30 17:56:58 28.963 1:22.643
4 14 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 30 17:57:21 31.071 1:48.368

not much of a gap there huh?

and, further salt for fans, if MW stayed on the extremes he put on on lap 22 (like NH did) he would have been in 1st when the race has stopped by a mile.

alfisti - when webber got past alonso his dry pace was massively faster than kimis. He pulled 5 secs from alonso in 2 laps and was lapping some 1.8secs per lap faster than kimi just before they pitted

So he just has to get by them, if he was 1.8 sec a lap faster than Kimi he has to find a way past.

The Mark Webber thread 2009

He drove well today, deserves being talked about but can't believe (some) people questioned why I made a topic about the car.

I can't praise Webber enough for his efforts today! Just brilliant in the wet. Surely Marko will give him a public thumbs up now....!

OK then let's talk car.

We're in a bit of a pickle right now, see I figure pace wise it's something like this ........

Brawn
Toyota
RBR, Williams
Ferrari
BMW
Renault

Now, these KERS cars combined with Williams qualy pace are cauising a nightmare. So we start something like 5th and 6th but a row or two back are all these KERS cars and we just get SWAMPED off the line and then they are hard to pass as well.

How are RBR gonna get around this? Toyota seem just that bit faster and able to avoid it so far.

Nah he'll say they swapped driver numbers and vettel grew a bit.

Marko will be fuming today, both Webber and Bourdais better than "his" boys ...

If Webbo had not been stuck behind alonso then he would have been 30 seconds up the road when the rain hit just behind Jenson, Rubens, Trulli and co. And in all likelihood would have been passed them with the wets on!!!!!! Shame. They cannot afford to get stuck behind KERS cars on these circuits with MASSIVE straights.

Go lighter, Even if its like what Vettel did to get third. Webbo with that fuel load might have been on the front row. Could have dashed away with the lead group. Its not ideal but its better than getting swamped at the start again.

Na.
Marko will say "look Webboosser only got 6th, and plummeted at the start because he does not know how to STEP ON IT"
"If Seb had not had the 10place penalty he would have been in p1 by lap 2 and wrapped it up before the rain"

I like SV, I do.
Marko can go burn in @#$$

I don't agree the answer is to to go light, just look at where Vettel came out after his stop today; 14th wasn't it? They just have to protect themselves more aggressively at the start (easy ), not losing positions to the KERS-rockets.

Well yeah but he lost 10 plces at the start.

Didn't he pit from 9th?

Fueling them piss light seems the only way but then you get caught behind the slower cars, the RB seems to have better race pace.

Either your coverage is Very poor.
Or ...youre joking, sorry its late if you are joking forgive me

At the first corner it was a huddle of the front non KERS cars and the KERS cars coming up from the rear.
Mark lost about 3 places by the time the dust settled
One was to FA who took his solid fuel KERS up to p4

He's talking about Vettel.

I think Mark would have been in a much better position if he had of gone lighter, He effectively lost 20 or more seconds behind alonso. Theres not much point fueling them heavy if they are just gunna get held up.

But who knows, The Bulls were probably running more wing than some of the others in qualy for the wet race. They seemed a bit quicker than the toyotas and williams in qualy mode in Melb. Hopefuly it was just a one off for the average qualy pace. The lap times suggest that they can match it with the toyotas and williams in race pace.

Whats more worrying is the fact that if there were NO PENALTYS then he would have started in 7th and been majorly rooted for the race. How many KERS cars would have got him by the first corner??? Hamilton, Alonso, Massa in normal conditions would have been up there. Thats quite a few positions by the first corner.

BRING ON MONACO

Yeah that's what I mean, I weas talking about Vettel not Mark. OK Vettel pitted from 9th but iof you fuel up light you can bugger off and pit then return in say 5th or 6th??

I dunno the solution but it's a real problem, no poing being a little light then still being in 9th or 10th by the end of the first lap.

I am a big fan of Vettel, but I was very disappointed with his qualifying lap. I still cannot quite work out the strategy from Red Bull with him. As someone else said, if you're fuelled light for an aggressive race, then you have to start making an impression at some stage, and if you KNEW KERS cars were going to stop your progress up the field, then maybe don't have light fuel; fuel heavy and wait for the pits/rain.

Webber did well to salvage 6th, but after FP3, we must consider it a disappointing race for Red Bull. I hope the analysts are working out who got things wrong and why.

I don't think there was anything wrong with Vettel's strategy or his qualifying lap. When you have a 10 place penalty hanging over you, you are in a no win situation. If you go heavy, you end up 18th or 19th on the grid. If you go light, in this case you end up 13th. Given there was a good chance of rain I think this was the right way to go. If the rain had come in (as it was threatening to do) when he pitted he would have been in great shape.

I think it wasn't really disappointing. Mark showed awesome pace and Seb was doomed a week before the race started. The spin-off was uncalled for but it didn't change much either. And Mark was due for a solid podium but you really can't anticipate a red flag like that. P6 was just bad luck. They haven't actually done much of a mistake there. It was ok'ish after all.

For me this race showed one thing quite clearly: if there will be a weekend where no decision is costly RBR will be on a god run for the win. Right now the team looks more promising than Ferrari, McLaren and every other (of the recent) former champion. We should be happy about that. Eventually they'll clinch the first win. Just keep telling it to yourselves.

MW's wet weather pace shows how his weight is hurting his setup. In the wet, because the wet weather tyres have grooves, the different tyre balance shifts the weight in the car back. And this clearly suits the heavier Webber.

With slicks, the weight needs to be shifted forward - and hence Webber's advantage goes.

A typical strategic call from RBR. Once again, they managed to minimize their chances.

A classic great MW performance that is ignored by most, and will be forgotten by the rest.

Alfisti: You almost got a win there - with a very slightly different strategy, MW would have won that race! What odds were you on?


I suspect you got your $10 worth though. IN adrenalin at least.

Also someone said they watched the Shawshank Redemption. If one looks at the various Channel 10 stations, the HD one also has a normal digital transmission, and it showed the race in real time.

Thanks Channel 10!

But with your rnon real time transmissions Channel 10, would you mind not dropping out the rest of the race? Because all the interesting things happen while you post your adds. Please simply freeze the transmission, go to you ads, and then come back to where you left off. We don't mind the advertisments, as long as you don't cut the race action.

We really hate to loose race action though ....

I think you are reading a lot into something that possibly isn't there. Why wasn't Kubica fast in the wet if your theory is correct? I think more than likely the car and driver performed well in the wet and some other combinations weren't as well suited.

Southern Cross TEN show pretty pictures on the HD Channel

Although I think i gained a big appreciation of MW's wet pace just watching live timing

Not just that.
It was suggested(unconfirmed) that Mark had gone for a more aggressive wet weather set up than SV.
This would account for his slightly slower dry times in Q but stunningly fast wet times.

lol

Quite possably.

We'll know more when we compare the lap differential times.

And even if there was a lap differential between both drivers, they might have had different setups anyway. Not even personal preferences - one might have more of a wet orientated setup compared to the other driver.

So driver comparisons might not establish anything.

I did however speak about this issue pre-race.

But it is certainly true, and this is besides comparing SV to MW speeds, that the team could have setup the cars more for wet weather than for dry weather. By putting the weight further back in the car, the handling in the car would be better in the wet, than in the dry. This is because in the dry compared to the wet, the ratio of air (grooves in several directions) compared to contact patch changes compared to the wet. And when that contact patch changes, a team needs to adjust the weight balance of the car. Also of course, they change the aero balance - but typically, they try to do that in the race, and its typically not enough.

It seems to me anyway, that the grooves used by BS do not pump enough water for tropical conditions.

What frustrates me is that they clearly have a quick car, yet after 2 races only 1.5 points, whilst toyota have 16 and are 2nd in constructors.

Well their tactics have been as bad as always. Webber watchers have seen RBR's tactical blunders before - they are the worst of all the teams historically. There was Webber with the second fastest car on the track, and with full wets, and in he came ... as the downpore was really starting. So he had to come in again and go to full wets - again. They really have no idea ... there was no indication Webber had used up his full wets either.

As to points overall, Vettel chucked many last race, and MW was just very unlucky to get suddently T boned on the main straight, and this time the team dropped the ball.

There's a chance that the RBR with the new diffuser rule will gain more than other teams, because RBR's diffuser is narrower - hence increasing its height might increase its area more in percentage terms. Of course if they ban the diffuser, then RBR will have maybe the fastest car, until the big spenders catch up.

And next year, the big spenders will not be able to develop their cars as much. the only problem with that scenario though, is that smaller spenders don't manufacture their engines, and small spenders are going to have more motor flexibility. But if they took advantage of that, then they might go over the budget limit as well ...

The race I saw had Glock and Webber making a very bad grid launch, loosing several spot to Rubens, Kimi and Alonso - the best start of the afternoon.
Jenson, Rubens and Kimi got hid of Alonsotrany, but Webber and Glock were stuck behind Alonso, loosing a massive amount time.

Then after several rounds of pits Glock made ground shod with inters and finished P3, Webber P6.
Then how could Webber have been 2-3 sec faster than Glock?

Maybe it was the time he lost fighting with Lewis and his Q1 stuck Maca.

Maybe it wasn't a fantastic race of Webber, after all. :\

Oh dear...

You are one of these people who just flicks to the race every 15mins or so from their other channel of watching the wiggles aren't you?

Who is going to tell him what he missed ?

Nobody's going to fall for it.

You might wanna watch the race again. Mark was way ahead of Timo until everyone switched to wets and Timo chose inters. Mark then was the fastest car on full wet tires by a mile. Timo was only a little bit faster than Mark. While the German drove circles around everyone else he barely managed to overtake Mark and couldn't really drive away from him.

Then almost everyone went to inters, including Mark, who was at P3 at this time. One lap later Timo and Mark were the first to switch to full wet while Jenson, Nick, Jarno and Rubens didn't yet. That's how Nick, Rubens and Jarno got past Mark. They were nowhere close to Marks pace.

Another lap later the others went in to go full wets too with only Nick Heidfeld staying out. And this lap eventually wasn't counted anymore, because the rules for red flagging a race stipulate so. Rubens and Jarno crossed the finish line inside the pits. On track Mark was right behind Timo as the others were pitting for full wets. Unfortunately the rules don't cover that. Bad luck.

It's like a bit of bait with a giant flashing light on it and a horn.

He's scaring all the fish away

But do you admit Webber made a bad start or not?

Webber being non-KERS fitted and fairly heavy made a reasonable start.

Uh - kubica didn't race yesterday.

He didnt make a bad start,

It was nothing special but you couldnt classify it as bad. KERS cars are gunna get you at the start on the tracks with long runs to the first corner. Thats just the way it is, Not much red bull can do about it apart from getting an exceptional start like Rosberg did or get as far away from the KERS cars as possible by qaulifying in the first two rows, Go a little lighter if need be, Because getting caught behind a slow renault or mclaren is just going to ruin another race where they clearly have great race pace.

He was actually in front of Glock until the team decided it was time to change tyres twice in 2 laps. Horner even said if they had finished the lap Webber would have been 3rd.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=323200

Really the results were in the middle of pit stops and everything so they don't really give an accurate reading on what happened.

Mark had a normal start. He overtook Timo and was passed by Rubens and the two KERS-cars of Kimi and Fernando. Not having KERS and starting from P5 will always more or less end up that way.

Nor did Webber fans reports.

Barrumut,

Dont rely on reports to give you an idea of how the race unfolded. Maybe WATCHING the actual race might give you a better a idea of what really happens during a race.

Fixed for you.