Clatter
Jan 24 2009, 22:37
Originally posted by Lopek
It means nothing of the sort. It means they have decided that an extra few weeks of development from AN and his team is more valuable than a one test they have missed. This is not a last minute delay in the launch, it is a long planned decision by the team.
Whether it work is open to debate. I fear it will be a repeat of Newey's MP4-18 fiasco, but with no "MP4-17" to fall back on. :\
May be long planned, but that was probably before the change to the testing rules. They will find it difficult to make up the time lost, although the weather was so bad the damage is not as bad as it might have been.
Originally posted by Clatter
May be long planned, but that was probably before the change to the testing rules. They will find it difficult to make up the time lost, although the weather was so bad the damage is not as bad as it might have been.
What lost time? The pretty much washed out test at a circuit no-one knew and so was a little value? That's been little more than a shakedown from what I can see.
As far as I know - and can see on the Valencia, Barcelona & Jerez sites - there is no more more tests until the the Red Bull launch.
The extra weeks of development will be far far more valuable imo.
Clatter
Jan 24 2009, 22:58
Although the tests could not have been as productive as hoped for, with only one car allowed now, all track time is valuable.
Melbourne Park
Jan 25 2009, 00:03
Originally posted by Clatter
Although the tests could not have been as productive as hoped for, with only one car allowed now, all track time is valuable.
One has to include opportunity cost when assessing value. For instance, IMO Mugello provided greater value than did Portugal with this testing. So with the extra days of testing there, there was a severe opportunity cost in testing in Portugal. And also RBR's opportunity cost of not testing, was greatly diminished by the poor weather in Portugal. Also testing is limited now - hence the opportunity cost is more important compared to pre-restricted testing.
Its also worth recalling, that RBR spent a lot of effort in addressing the reliability issues after their 2007 year. It appeared their work was successful - so maybe they are being smart? Ferrari won some WDCs by introducing their cars later than their competition did. Should RBR follow today's teams by introducing their car early, and thereby be conservative - or should they take a risk?
Being a smaller team, maybe taking a risk is worth the risk? Also the rules changed late for this formula - for instance the tyre balance issue was being debated late last year. Maybe late rule issues result in either being a bit late, or deciding to run a compromise? Being later seems riskier - but we don't know yet if its dunderhead stupidity, or maybe a touch of genius.
HoldenRT
Jan 25 2009, 05:49
Originally posted by AFCA
Webber on knowing what the new car is going to look like: ''Perhaps the RB5 will be the most beautiful car of 2009, which is something very difficult with this year's regulations.''
A word on KERS: ''The teams are developing in both directions (with and without KERS). But certainly anyone that decides to go to Melbrourne with KERS shows great courage.''
Thanks AFCA. The word beautiful being used with this years regs, need to see this to believe it.
Originally posted by Clatter
Although the tests could not have been as productive as hoped for, with only one car allowed now, all track time is valuable.
As is all Wind Tunnel and CFD time. I would think that an extra month of that development is far more valuable than a couple of days of wet running at a circuit you have no baseline for.
kodandaram
Jan 25 2009, 15:58
I think Mark shot himself in the foot - pun intended
He himself says, he will be able to put about 80% of the usual pressure on his injured foot by Melbourne and he thinks it will be enough for the race. Of course you dont stand on your feet in the car, but I am not convinced about how well prepared he will be.
Didn't Nigel Mansell compete a season at Williams with a broken foot ? He didn't reveal it to anybody because he didn't want to undergo surgery . Was that his Championship winning year ?
Webbers problems might be compounded by the fact that the broken leg has left him without his regular physical preparation right uptill Melbourne. That is a disaster. Vettel and the rest of the grid would be working their asses off getting in shape - trying to improve over their form last year while Webber spends days sitting around waiting for the leg to heal. He will probably be weaker than he was at the last race of 2008. Its not good.
I just hope he recovers well enough by say the 5th race of 6th race of the year and that he can blow away Vettel. Webbers future is up in the air. This accident might turn out to be the incident that decides his future in the sport.
There is no way that Webber would just be sitting around doing nothing. He has already said he ha been doing a lot of swimming and I'm sure that he'll be on exercise bikes and the like the second he is able to.
Remember he's a tough cookie, drove with broken ribs in 2005 and in the 2007 Fuji race where he was looking good for victory he had food poisoning and vomited into his helmet earlier in the race. Even if he has a bit of discomfort in the leg come Melbourne it shouldn't change much.
That wasn't the point.
The point is Webber's preparation has been compromised owing to the broken leg, and that going up against Vettel would have already been difficult enough with a clean bill of health.
Sure it's not ideal but what I'm saying people expect him to unfit because of his leg and I'm certain that he would still be very fit but not quite to his usual standard.
sejanus
Jan 26 2009, 00:29
I don't think theres any need to worry about marks fitness or preparation - he's a staggeringly fit person.
HoldenRT
Jan 28 2009, 13:48
Apparently he's been working with rubber bands and other similar things. As well as the other things mentioned like swimming.
I feel confident qualifying won't be affected, and if anything, you'd expect it to be the last 20 or so laps which "could" be a problem. Let's face it the hydraulics or fuel flap will probably fail by then anyway.
No one has any real idea though. It's not ideal that's for sure, but I don't know if it be a valid excuse. (Unless he was in a good position and fell away in the last 20 laps or something).
He's driven with broken ribs, raw burns, and vomit in the helmet so he might be ok.
Clatter
Jan 28 2009, 14:06
Originally posted by Lopek
As is all Wind Tunnel and CFD time. I would think that an extra month of that development is far more valuable than a couple of days of wet running at a circuit you have no baseline for.
There are rumblings from Renault that the tunnel data isnt matching track data, so IMHO it's important to get the car on-track ASAP.
HoldenRT
Jan 28 2009, 17:54
You are talking about Renault's windtunnels, not Redbull's?
I understood it more in a way like: If there were mismatches between tunnel data and track data, then you'd wanted to know it as early as possible to correct it.
Anyways, I can't await to see the RB5. Here's hoping Mark is right about the new car being a real beauty considering the circumstances.
Clatter
Jan 28 2009, 20:25
Originally posted by HoldenRT
You are talking about Renault's windtunnels, not Redbull's?
Yes. I was just using that as an example. Things can often look very rosy in the tunnel, but quickly change once on track, so it's important for all teams to get as much track time as they can. Missing a test may not ultimately harm them, but I don't see it as any sort of advantage.
krapmeister
Jan 29 2009, 08:18
With Toyota and Williams diffusers having teams seeking clarification from the FIA, I bet there are some people with keen eyes waiting to see the RB5 - be interesting to see Newey's take on the new rules.
Webber: ''I am happy with Red Bull and I hope Red Bull will be happy with me. If I keep my consistency and get everything out of the car, I will have no worries for the future. I plan to stay on with Red Bull long-term. In fact, I do not see me working with any other team."
"I see no reason why Red Bull should not do well in 2009. The car looks extremely good. We have all the key people for success. I am sure we will run with the top this year."
shonguiz
Jan 31 2009, 18:34
He has risen the hopes very high for the new car, let's hope he won't get a smack in his face when they will discover the track reality.
PassWind
Jan 31 2009, 19:38
Originally posted by AFCA
Webber: ''I am happy with Red Bull and I hope Red Bull will be happy with me. If I keep my consistency and get everything out of the car, I will have no worries for the future. I plan to stay on with Red Bull long-term. In fact, I do not see me working with any other team."
"I see no reason why Red Bull should not do well in 2009. The car looks extremely good. We have all the key people for success. I am sure we will run with the top this year."
Mark seems resolved to his lot in life which is probably about right given his talent and circumstance racing in F1. I am looking forward to see what Mark does after F1, not really sure if he will keep on driving but I think he might be well suited to endurance racing, time will tell. I would not be surprised if he has nothing to do with racing after he leaves F1.
Anomnader
Jan 31 2009, 19:41
I am hoping that he wins his battle with Vettel, a lot of people are betting on Vettel to be the next best thing and wipe the floor with Webber, so.... come on Webber
PassWind
Feb 1 2009, 02:31
Originally posted by Anomnader
I am hoping that he wins his battle with Vettel, a lot of people are betting on Vettel to be the next best thing and wipe the floor with Webber, so.... come on Webber
He will be fine, I would say his pace is as fast as anyone in the same car, the choices he makes sometimes let him down and that has cost him a few points over the years. It doesn't really matter Mark has nothing to lose, Vettel on the other hand has everything to lose and potentially the most to gain, is it the right time for Vettel to be placed under that sort of pressure? He will be under pressure that is for sure, I like the young fella, I hope he makes the next step and beats Mark on pace, he is European so a driver that has what Mark hasn't the whole of the core community backing him. Of the two age aside Vettel is the obvious better prospect. If Mark beats him Vettel will be another blow through, although I would think he is young enough to be given a chance in a top car even if Mark does out pace him. Mark on the other hand, his remaining career is set in stone, hang around until he can no longer get a good drive or he is let go.
FPV GTHO
Feb 1 2009, 12:26
I imagine even if Vettel gets beaten by Webber, be it solidly or just by margins through the year, Red Bull wouldnt loosen their tight grip on him. Defeat now, or next year, would just be part of the bigger learning experience. Theyve invested too much into him now just to let him go. They need results from him and Buemi to justify the driver development program after Klien and Liuzzi withered away.
Exactly, Vettel doesn't need to beat Mark in 2009. Both of them are very quick. Ultimately one of them will come out on top. Doesn't make the other one a failure. We have a very good lineup I believe - better than Williams and Renault, most likely equally well to BMW. Now we only need a better car.
HoldenRT
Feb 1 2009, 14:19
Agree. It will be great to watch. I feel the same as Passwind in that I feel his pace is as good as anyone else in the same car. I've always wanted to see him paired with Alonso but Vettel will be the closest he can get I think. And Vettel is very likable and talented and now in his third season so he's not to be underestimated. Pace is only one aspect of racing though, and other factors also play a role. Setup, racecraft, luck etc etc. I think the rivalry will be good for the team pushing it fowards.
Like Hippo said, all that's needed is a better car. I feel optimistic about the car, yes it could all go to shit. It's a high risk high reward season, and some teams WILL get it wrong but if they do get it right it could be a big year. Newey usually excells in big rules changes, and while it's not a sure thing it's now or never really. His best opportunity to "shine" in modern F1 era. It could be one of those awful poor reliability seasons but it could also be one of those punching above their weight seasons. Similar to Toyota had in 05. I look foward to cheering for both Vettel and Webber. Hopefully the car will give something to cheer about.
Barramut
Feb 2 2009, 11:44
Originally posted by AFCA
Webber: ''I am happy with Red Bull and I hope Red Bull will be happy with me. If I keep my consistency and get everything out of the car, I will have no worries for the future. I plan to stay on with Red Bull long-term. In fact, I do not see me working with any other team."
It seems that webber is resignated to be the #2 driver in Briatore's portfolio.
Whenever there is a top spot in Ferrari, McLaren or Renault, Briatore will offer Alonso.
sanjiro
Feb 2 2009, 15:18
I think you will find MW resigned himself to mid team status after 06.
Now he is doing the only smart thing left and planting his flag in the ground at RBR.
If he has a great year and the other teams do look at him ( I doubt they would anyway) contracts are made to be broken.
Originally posted by sanjiro
I think you will find MW resigned himself to mid team status after 06.
Now he is doing the only smart thing left and planting his flag in the ground at RBR.
If he has a great year and the other teams do look at him ( I doubt they would anyway) contracts are made to be broken.
I think Webber is better than most people give him credit for and still has his reputation firmly intact, compared to say Fisichella. Though maybe that has more to do with the fact he never really had to go up against a true top driver? I reckon he has a good few years in him, but will any of the top-teams be interested in a 33+ year old? Probably not, so it makes sense for him to want to stay at Red Bull, especially as he seems to enjoy driving for the team and his straight-talking approach seems to fit in well with the brand.
Having seen off a variety of team mates over the years, Vettel is likely to prove to be a real test for Webber. I do think that they're probably going to be a lot closer than people think and neither will blow the other out of the water. But the thing is Vettel is an unfinished article at the moment and at 21 drives like a veteran already.
As long as the RB5 is as good as it is supposed to be, I reckon Webber's first win isn't too far off. He certainly deserves it and I'm looking forward to this team-mate battle out of all the teams this year.
Speaking of Webber...
Mark Webber’s undergoing one unconventional route to full fitness – standing in a sub-zero chamber for three minutes.
As part of the rehabilitation after his road accident last November, as well as gym and pool work, Mark has been standing in a cryogenic chamber which plunges to a teeth-grinding temperature of -130˚C for three minutes.
“I’ve been doing it for three weeks now,” said Mark. “You go from a normal, ambient room temperature into a chamber of -50˚C for about 30 seconds and then for another three minutes into -130˚C.
“It’s very good for your general well-being, your immune system and apparently it’s good for cellulite. Not much of a worry for me… but it’s very good for the whole body.”
The intense cold massively increases blood supply around Mark’s body and that includes his right leg, helping to heal that fracture.
“The results over the last few weeks have been incredible. We had a really good week last week, so we’re really positive… dare I say it, we’re probably a little bit ahead of schedule.”
With just over a week to go before Mark is scheduled to get back into a Formula One car for the first time since the Brazilian Grand Prix, while he’s optimistic, he’s also realistic.
“Driving is not like playing tennis. A tennis player can practise before actually playing a game. I need to get in the car and go and do it to find out about things like the vibration jolts. Although I may do some karting beforehand.”
And Mark did get behind the wheel of a kart when he visited the Hahnenkamm Rennen skiing event in Austria recently. Did he race? “No - I was just mucking about in the kart!”
What he is serious about is his determination to be ready for the first race of the year.
“I’ve really worked hard to get in this position,” he said. “There’s been some stuff in the press that I won’t be 100% fit for Melbourne which pissed me off. I will be 100% ready to do my job.”
Mark will join new team-mate Sebastian Vettel at Jerez in Spain on February 9 for the launch of the RB5.
Clatter
Feb 2 2009, 22:07
Originally posted by Barramut
It seems that webber is resignated to be the #2 driver in Briatore's portfolio.
Whenever there is a top spot in Ferrari, McLaren or Renault, Briatore will offer Alonso.
When he had the chance to go to Renault he turned the offer down. When have either Mac or Ferrari shown any interest in MW, and Briatore had bugger all to do with the deal that took FA to Mac.
Originally posted by Clatter
When he had the chance to go to Renault he turned the offer down. When have either Mac or Ferrari shown any interest in MW, and Briatore had bugger all to do with the deal that took FA to Mac.
Wasn't there a rumour in 2007 that he might have been in with a shout at the vacant seat made available by Alonso's departure at McLaren? I think he shot himself in the foot with his comments on Hamilton's driving escapades behind the safety car in Fuji.
Melbourne Park
Feb 2 2009, 22:22
Originally posted by dank
Wasn't there a rumour in 2007 that he might have been in with a shout at the vacant seat made available by Alonso's departure at McLaren? I think he shot himself in the foot with his comments on Hamilton's driving escapades behind the safety car in Fuji.
The rumors were very strong. However IMO Webber's up front nature might not have fitted what McLaren were looking for - and quite possibly they wanted to focus on Lewis. Alonso complained about the Lewis centric nature of the team. IMO that is a better model for F1 anyway - as per evidenced by McLaren's WDC last year, and MS's championships. When MW left Williams, Sir Frank talked about how Sir Frank 'understood Mark seeking such a great opportunity' - but that opportunity never came. The RBR was spoken of as a secondary option.
So who knows?
IMO MW's biggest hassle will be the extra weight for KERS, and the forward balance of the new tyres, which ends up requiring a lighter driver. If MW's RBR5 cannot be balanced like the 13kg lighter Vettel, then MW will end up with rear tyre issues and a bad setup. That's his biggest challenge this year IMO.
MW on his recovery:
“I’ve been doing it for three weeks now,” the Australian told Red Bull’s official website. “You go from a normal, ambient room temperature into a chamber of -50 degrees Celsius for about 30 seconds and then for another three minutes into -130 degrees Celsius."
Three minutes at -130 degrees Celsius?
How can that be of any good for your health?
tahadar
Feb 3 2009, 17:18
Originally posted by Enkei
MW on his recovery:
“I’ve been doing it for three weeks now,” the Australian told Red Bull’s official website. “You go from a normal, ambient room temperature into a chamber of -50 degrees Celsius for about 30 seconds and then for another three minutes into -130 degrees Celsius."
Three minutes at -130 degrees Celsius?
How can that be of any good for your health?
holy jesus!
shonguiz
Feb 3 2009, 17:46
I thought you would be dead or at leat freezed in those conditions.
They even captured it:
There are a few more pics as of yesterday to be found here:
http://www.redbullracing.com/Team/Mark-Webber/Gallery/
Slowinfastout
Feb 3 2009, 18:32
3 mins at -130 Celcius?
That can't be true... would lose fingers and toes eyes and whatnot...
lol @ picture above
Maybe it's +130 ºC, but that's too hot anyway.
Tenmantaylor
Feb 3 2009, 20:50
Originally posted by Slowinfastout
3 mins at -130 Celcius?
That can't be true... would lose fingers and toes eyes and whatnot...
lol @ picture above
Not for three minutes at a time you wouldn't.
undersquare
Feb 3 2009, 22:42
It's true -
wikipedia
He's wearing the gloves, socks and hat to keep him in one piece.
You probably lose less energy than in cold water due to less heat conductance of the cold air. It's normally used as a treatment for elder people with rheumatism.
HoldenRT
Feb 4 2009, 12:37
Imagine the shrinkage.
Rinehart
Feb 4 2009, 12:40
Originally posted by dank
Wasn't there a rumour in 2007 that he might have been in with a shout at the vacant seat made available by Alonso's departure at McLaren? I think he shot himself in the foot with his comments on Hamilton's driving escapades behind the safety car in Fuji.
No, the reason he wasn't considered by McLaren is that Webber's relationship with Merc took a nosedive when he flipped their Sauber Merc Sportscar at Le Mans many years ago and then publically lambasted Merc for building dangerous cars (quite rightly).
He'll never drive for Merc.
FPV GTHO
Feb 4 2009, 13:32
I dont think the Webber/Merc relationship remained that bitter, Webber claimed in '07 IIRC that if it wasnt for Ron Dennis running McLaren, he may have been brought into F1 by Mercedes.
Barramut
Feb 4 2009, 14:50
Originally posted by FPV GTHO
I dont think the Webber/Merc relationship remained that bitter, Webber claimed in '07 IIRC that if it wasnt for Ron Dennis running McLaren, he may have been brought into F1 by Mercedes.
Well, after Lewis, nobody can't say Ron doesn't have a good eye to judge young drivers. Right?
What's next? Ron blocked Schumacher in McLaren? MS was also part of Mercedes YDP.
Barramut
Feb 4 2009, 14:57
Originally posted by Rinehart
No, the reason he wasn't considered by McLaren is that Webber's relationship with Merc took a nosedive when he flipped their Sauber Merc Sportscar at Le Mans many years ago and then publically lambasted Merc for building dangerous cars (quite rightly).
He'll never drive for Merc.
Mercedes knew those cars had aerodynamic problems following in the draft of other cars.
Mercedes advised their drivers not to be there at high speeds.
Due to the ondulations in the track the front of the car could lift.
But Webber did exactly that.
Got stuck behind a GT-ONE and flew away.
Ross Stonefeld
Feb 4 2009, 15:07
That was Dumbreck in the race. Webber went over twice before (once in qualifying and once in the morning warmup?). Webber's car was pulled, or not repaired in time, for the start; Dumbreck crashed in the race, and the third car was parked immediately.
Originally posted by AFCA
Webber on knowing what the new car is going to look like: ''Perhaps the RB5 will be the most beautiful car of 2009, which is something very difficult with this year's regulations.''
Originally posted by AFCA
"I see no reason why Red Bull should not do well in 2009. The car looks extremely good. We have all the key people for success. I am sure we will run with the top this year."
Marko to APA: ''The looks of the car and the shape of its wings will mainly look different to those of the cars presented so far. The chance of anyone pulling out a big gap (by having the right design and making the right choices - AFCA) is bigger than ever. Therefore we're relatively confident.''
Newey has apperantly opted for a different and innovative concept, is he showing his brilliance again ? ''We hope so at least.''
On developing the car in the windtunnel instead of at a rainy Portimao circuit: ''Only half a day out of the four days of testing was useful due to the weather circumstances in Portugal. (For us to go) testing would habe been an utter waste of time.''
Marko's opinion on KERS: ''The battery solution isn't the right one, moreover, we're talking about something that is very dangerous to transport. In the car two seperate fire extinguishing systems have to be build in. We will only use KERS when it's reliable and offers an advantage in competition.''
On the engine: ''In 2008 the engine budget was still € 20 million, in 2010 that will be reduced to just € 5 million.''
He is in favour of the radical cost cutting measures and the ban on in-season testing: ''The fans don't car which aerodynamic bits and bobs the car have or what the engine looks like from the inside.''
F1Champion
Feb 4 2009, 20:00
Originally posted by Barramut
Mercedes knew those cars had aerodynamic problems following in the draft of other cars.
Mercedes advised their drivers not to be there at high speeds.
Due to the ondulations in the track the front of the car could lift.
But Webber did exactly that.
Got stuck behind a GT-ONE and flew away.
I'm sorry but you can't possibly be blaming the drivers for the flips. If Mercedes-Benz as you claim knew about the problem then they should of pulled out of the race full stop. That situation is far worse than even Indygate.....cars might have a tendency to commonly break their suspension or puncture a tyre but to go airborne....cars aren't meant to go flipping in the air at 100+mph. It is a horrific sight, and there most extreme fault you could possibly have in a racing car. The danger to audiences, the drivers and anyone else doesn't bear thinking about. If MB couldn't make a safe car they shouldn't of raced it period. I can't believe their lack of disregard for all those involved even continuing even after 1 flip.
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