I have no great expectations for RBR in 09
If anything I expect Honda to improve and toyota/renault to be fast on day 1

I am however looking forward to the MW/SV conflict
Honestly I can't say who will come out ontop

I do think that if they don't score points regularly Mark may call it quits

NO way would MW give up 10 million a year ... you must be kidding. He loves it too. No, he'll be dragged kicking and screaming like they all do. Even MS did not want to go. Mika did, but only because he was loosing it a bit, and it was getting to him. MW will hang on for as long as he can IMO. Would he become a #2 in a top team? He might even do that before he leaves - its one way to get a win.

10 million a year these days is peanuts for F1 drivers. Could you imagine either Raikkonen, Hamilton or Alonso settling for so little?

Even then, If Webber had earnt approx 40 million during his 6 year F1 career so far, maybe somewhere around half to a third of that goes on taxes, and with other living expenses he might have around 5-10 million in the bank. I'm sure he could retire on that living a modest yet still happy lifestyle whilst also picking up work elsewhere.

Webber on £10 million a year? Source? I thought he was on half that if anything.

Vettel is/was one of the lowest paid drivers and will be on about £1.5 million when he joins Red Bull.

I thought he was on $8m?

Pretty sure he's on about £4m (so yeah $8m). I'm sure he probably gets a bonus for every point scored though.

He does, so his true income may be around $10m.
I remember when DC signed for Red Bull in '04 it was reported that he was on a base salary of $4m, and a points bonus of, I read anything from 70.000 to 120.000.

Webber was not far off 10 mill US - it depended on the exchange rate. His "wife" told of his payments last year in an article, and in US$ at that time, it was over 9 million. The figure 8.7 million is in my memory. But then the way the Aussie dollar bounces around, such a payment would change a lot. I don't know if his 'wife" was aware of the currency valuation at the time either. Or whether MW was paid in Euros, or $US, or $Au. And I don't know when she was interviewed either. But he re-signed (that can sound quitting can't it) again this year - and mid season, when he looked especially good (as did the RBR). He would not have signed for the same amount at that time, there were too many other potential drivers around. And up until the new Ferrari engine came, and Renault improved, and Toyota improved, MW looked the best driver in F1, he seemed faultless compared to those in the fast cars except maybe Kubica.

I think MW would be stupid to get paid for points though - since the RBR finds it difficult to score them. If he got bonuses for beating his team mate in qualifying, he would have done well last year though. If he was on a points bonus, and then the other teams upgraded and suddenly points became a matter of others mistakes, that would be very frustrating IMO.

But we actually don't know the driver payments for certain, do we?

Exactly, and i have to say that's good actually. Drivers in F1 are under a lot of pressure. The press, the media, the fans, the teams, the sponsors... everyone wants their share. And if they fail, which is inevitable in the long term, they get sacked and it's over. In my opinion they deserve whatever they can squeeze out of their employers. It's a fair game and it's not worth of any statistics and comparisons. Payment is not equal to success or talent in the world of marketing. If anyone has a doubt about that he should ask Daniel Kübelböck or Jessica Simpson about it.

Given what Horner was saying when they announced Webber for next year, I suspect Webber got a juicy payrise. RBR made it clear they wanted to sign Webber early to prevent a Renault or BMW poaching him, and that must mean they opened their wallets ... they basically admitted they gave the negotiating power to Mark.

Or to Flavio more likely IMO. And if DC was to go, they could afford to pay MW lots. Vettel is I suspect on a lot less than DC was. But if Vettel beats MW, then he'll get into the serious dollars, or if not, a serious team. I suspect that MW's #1 priority at the moment, is the money. And afterall, the top teams seem to have at least one top driver in them. I would have thought Honda would be perfect for MW. His dad would have liked that too I suspect ... or maybe he is a Yamaha man?

it would be interesting to see who would drive for no $$ in F1 hehe.

Well several drivers have to pay to drive - they get big sponsors. But even Alonso has sponsors that pay the team a lot, in order to get marketing opportunities. Nakajimi who races for Williams, is evidently there as part of the Toyota engine deal. I don't know what Nakajimi gets, but from the team I doubt he gets anything except some type of performance incentives I'd presume.

I've always held a bit of a thought as to what I would do in marks situation.

Now he has a bit of cash and is well set for life - I'd go to ferrari/mclaren and say - the next time a seat pops up, I'll drive in it for free - and you just pay me if I do really well (i.e. race wins or a WDC)

I'm still constantly frustrated at the thought of mark never getting a real chance in a good seat.

It all goes back to his late entry - Renault chose Alonso because he was younger than MW. Then MW instead of joining Alonso at Renault, chose BMW/Williams. One wonders what might have happened at Renault - but we'll never know. And you likely right - its very doubtfull MW would ever get a seat in a top team where he was not in a supportive role.

The thing is sejanus, if Seb beats Mark next year than we don't have to be frustrated anymore, as honestly he will have himself to blame for not grasping the opportunities presented which kind of has been his career summary, along with ALOT of bad luck of course. If he dusts Vettel like he did to Rosberg, we will truly know he is capable of wins/wdc as i still am not 100% sure if he is the real deal. Next year is going to be fun to watch even if the car is not crash hot.

It all goes back to his late entry - Renault chose Alonso because he was younger than MW. Then MW instead of joining Alonso at Renault, chose BMW/Williams. One wonders what might have happened at Renault - but we'll never know. And your likely right - it's very doubtful MW would ever get a seat in a top team where he was not in a supportive role. These days due to marketing and the "branding" of drivers, the teams don't like to move drivers around, and most top teams have at least one top driver in them already.

The pic in BiH's post: I was under the impression that the anvil/shark fin would be the first thing to go for 2009? Will this still be allowed then?

Loeb testing on Monday and Vettel on Tuesday and Wednesday next week at Barcelona. Loeb had a seat fitting yesterday and will have a shakedown at Silverstone today.

What? Get rid of all that advertising space? Not on your life...

Especially with that narrow rear wing

I think Mark started getting on some Aussie rich lists at the end of '07, $25m fortune or something. Plus 7-8 in '08 and again in '09 he's well set...considering his life style too.

Drivers are often earning double their F1 salary. With all the personal advertising outside of the sport.

Actually it heavily depends on their contracts, and of course on their salary. McLaren for example usually don't allow their drivers to have personal sponsors. Red Bull on the other is hand not advertising any sponsor except for a few companies that provide technology (tyres, fuel, you name it). Last i checked there were no advertising patches on the drivers suits. Robert Kubica is another extreme example. I believe his salary is very low in the face of his performance. It was rumored to be not even € 1 million not long ago. So one can assume he probably makes a lot more from sponsoring contracts.

@dank: krapmeister is right. The anvil wing will stay. It doesn't disrupt overtaking and it's a very nice canvas to print big emblems on.

DC has got Casio on his helmet - a personal sponsor. It was rumoured to be worth £700.000.

Webber Vettel is gonna be good. New car not much in common with old car as previously observed by others. A lot gone into the development and design for 2009 at the cost of 2008. On paper it should be the stuff! Anyway 2008 wan't that bad. Yeah 7th a bit poo, but in terms of points it's an improvement on 2007, and for me that counts... RED BULL 2009 Let's do it.

Anyway, can't think about 09 yet, still mulling over 08.... wait till January. When's the technical review out?

I still reckon that Red Bull won't reach their full potential whilst they continue to make questionable tactical calls during races. They need to get somebody in to sit on the pit-wall to call the shots and be fully in charge at the same time.

I think since overtaking will be easier next year, that tactical calls will not be nearly as important as they have been for many years.

Their calls havent been that bad this year, probably highlighted by the pit call at Singapore.

Theyve just made a few blunders like keeping Webber out during the safety car at Montreal, just for him to follow it back in, and people IMO dwell on those too much.

We are ignorant, but it seems that IMO STR did better setups. When one reads race summaries published by Autosport, the team comments for less teams are pretty hopeless. They leave out lots of stuff that is relevant and well known. The reportage on Ferrari and McLaren is of much more comprehensive and therefor accurate. So one cannot find out all the detail to even have a proper guess IMO. But sometimes it seemed to me that their race strategy was wrong too, and their pole efforts might not have been worth it. Renault were an interesting contrast, they setup the car and tactics all year for FA to get podiums. In the first half of the year, it failed miserably - but Alonso several times explained that things could have resulted in top finishing positions. However RBR seemed much more content to simply gather some points. But its always tough when you are struggling to improve from a likely 10th, to an 8th or better. And we don't know how much benefit the Ferrari engine was. It apparently shocked both teams when the new engine arrived. I still suspect though that the team did not get the qualifying/race setups right, whereas it seemed that STR did a better job on that after they got their revised Ferrari engine.

Sorry to bring up another team, but you think that's why STR is testing Sato? That guy was tiny.

I agree somewhat re engine. But, give credit to the Renault aero guys, the put a lot of stuff on to make the car more predictable, which is why Piquet improved so much in the last few races. Exploiting the engine alone wouldn't explain that.

Christian Horner has said that information sharing is very transparent between the 4 Red Bull cars. They have briefings together all the time, even during GP weekends. So I don't think STR knew anything that RB didin't. It probably came down to how the set up (engine & diff mapping, rear suspension, and esp wing levels) compromise suited each engine.

Or, on the other hand, maybe Georgio Ascanelli really knows what he's doing with set ups? The STR was almost unbeatable in the wet as shown by both Sebs (with intermediates or with dries on a damp track)!!

I think the engine power affects more than people realise. Clearly theres the possibility to have a higher top speed, so RBR might compensate by running less downforce to get less drag, which then makes them slower around the corners. The torque might be worse, so they might run shorter gearing like they did at Spa, which will make them vulnerable to being overtaken. The driveablity could be worse, so they might run different diff or weight balance settings to get more drive.

20-30hp difference doesnt cost half a second just because of the lost power...

Also, the chassis that was raced last season started off life being designed for the Ferrari engine. I am sure that the different weight/balance characteristics of the two engines played its part in there being a performance difference between the RBR and STR cars.

The 08 car was designed for the Renault engine.

SV after driving RBRs 08 car towards the end of the season was quoted as saying their (STR) car was better.
He said the engine was a factor but he felt their car was faster overall not just in power.

He had no reason to make a false statement and to date does not have a reputation for embellishing the facts.

MW after driving the 08 STR at a similar time. said..."bloody hell"

As for the Renault engine, i have no doubt they were getting mroe power out of their package then RBR at the end of the year.

I didnt think Webber's ever been on record having tested the Toro Rosso. AFAIK only Vettel's tested both.

I took a small amount of license with that one.

An unidentified RBR F1 driver drove the STR and made the comment "bloody hell" when asked what he thought.

It always sounded like a MW comment to me, but it may have been DC.
Either way one of them said it.

Whilst its true it does not tell us much on its own, given what we saw on track and SV own comments on the performance difference I dont think its too much of a leap to see it as an expression of surprise at the extent of that difference (in favor of the STR)


Makes no difference now as we will have all of 09 to see the driver difference in the best possible direct comparison F1 offers.

NB F1 should be about design, development, teams, people, politics and drivers. the current direction looks to me like they want F1 to become a control sport all about the drivers. If that happens it will be a sad day for motor-racing and I will no longer be a fan. As a MW fan I would love to see him get wins but his inability to land a top drive is his own failing to carry and part of the whole F1 roller coaster.

haha that made me lol, MW getting out of the torro rosso and saying "bloody hell". i can picture it now

What about Sebastian Buemi? Has he tested with STR yet?

It was some months ago when the comment was leaked

Honestly I dont know.
The comment was not really backed up and is very much in the X-files category.
It was indicated however it was one of the RBR F1 drivers not a test driver or guest.
It was also indicated that the test was not pre-planed.

The story goes...
On a regular test day when both RBR and STR were testing, as the day was winding down and questions were being asked about the performance difference, it was put to the un-named driver that he should take the STR for a lap and give his impressions.
After doing a lap the driver gave the response "bloody hell" as he climbed from the car.

So much hear say and "informed sources have said" going on here that it can not be taken seriously, but its interesting none the less and fits the general perceptions given by more reliable sources.

One thing about the Ferrari engine was that its drivability is superb. Hence it also works in the wet. The reports also said it was not just more powerful - the power and acceleration was far superior right at the bottom of the rev curve.

The funny thing about STR, was that if MW had of been driving it, MW fans would have been weeping even more, and crediting MW with great driving! IMO!! Now imagine if MW had been demoted and swapped with Vettel mid season, the week before the new Ferrari engines arrived at STR.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel and MW get on next year. MW has rarely benefited his team mates careers - I wonder how RBR intend to handle their two drivers next year. I also wonder what role DC will play next year?

Buemi tested today and was second fastest, only Sato was faster than him.

Seb is just fine, thank you.

DC is with BBC.

Good to see RBR at the top of the times on day 2 at Barcelona, although we all know it is meaningless.

Bit concerned to read an interview with Webber that says he will be in the car for 2 days over the next 8 weeks. He said he might buy a kart to get some practice. I don't know how many days Vettel is getting in that period, but if it is a lot more then I'm worried that we can see who RBR will be focusing on.

Mark

That would seam to suck.
However I would think he should get a kart, always a good sign to see a driver stepping out of the F1 shell and doing something raw in the off season.

I would guess RBR are keen to get SV comfortable with their package.
I would doubt this indicates a preference towards SV just yet.
However if he proves faster I think it will only take a few races for him to be held up as their No1.

P.S. yes I know they have not done this in the past, Its just a gut feeling

I am not sure what are limitations on testing in 2009, but lets give a kid break. Webber has more than a season in his car, has a relationship with his racing and set up guys, so, Seb has some catching to do in that area. Besides, hasn't MS kick off testing in Jan only? Plenty time till March and 1st race.

I seriously wouldn't read so much into it to be honest. I mean, Hamilton for example is doing very little in the way of testing between now and Melbourne.

I wonder also if he is buying a kart that means he'll be down the local track at Milton Keynes?! I raced against him earlier on in the year and was woeful

that track in milton keynes is awesome