very smart, but a driver can't focus 3 years before his target
he can't just start adding points from today onwards
a team can shift focus thogh

I understand your point, but if he were more serious and really such an "engineer driver" with a perspective beyond mere racing, Schumi would have tried to convince Jean Todt to focus on 1997 asap.

As it was, Schumi did one most valuable thing: he convinced Todt to get one special man into Ferrari - guess who?

Ross Brawn.

Quotes of the day, really. I'm speechless.

Frans will be proud of You.

And I am amazed how dedicated you are in that matter. Schumi really must mean something for you and Ross obviously has been a minor factor in the Red Baron's successes.

Btw, I have no affiliation with Frans, in actual fact he despised me for taking the view that Schumi and Ross, if anything, "made" each other.

The question here is schumacher vs brawn so brawn should not need a driver of schumachers level if he indeed makes the most difference. He doesnt though. 96 proved that hes powerless without Schumacher. Brawn is a managment man who relies on the right tools, like schumacher or honda starting development a year early ect. Hes still very valuable but not the key.

They were both the best at what they do/did.

Comparing Ferrari 96 and Brawn 09, totally rediculous, in every sense.

Comparing JB/RB 09 to MS/RB any year is rediculous. RB is 37 now and before this year looked as good as Button.

Micheal surrounded himself with talent, he was the first to credit his team with every victory, and I'm sure Brawn would say the same. These guys understand the importance of others and respect each other for their abilities and what they bought to their teams. They are team players in the extreme and along with Todt, Bryne, Martenelli, Stepney etc etc etc acheived amazing things. If Brawn go on to emulate Ferraris run then the same will be able to be said for their major players, it won't all be down to Brawn. If it is, given his position and current duties you would have to give the credit at Ferrari to Todt, not Brawn which makes this rediculous comparison moot.

Brawn GP is not just Brawn.

Ferrari was not just MS or just Brawn.

Both were/are freaking awesome at what they do/did.

No bias, I think its obvious what happened, MS blocked hard and Haki hit him.

What you are proposing is that MS blocked with intention or knowlege of impact - praytell how does that get himself across the finish line? (yes he did finish but he cant have known he would).

MS said he didnt see him in the mirror, probably true to the point he didn't see him so close (of course he knew he was there), he probably still would have squeezed him still but to me the block confirms he didn't realise he was quite so close or willing to do a kamikaze.

Probably put it down to a heap of testosterone from the young pair.

Also add great memories from these 2 in F1 combat later on.

No I didnt know Frans before, seems like a nice Guy so i took the time to post this from a link within this thread, this is in the year 2000...

Alain Prost, the most successful Grand Prix driver of all time, has paid tribute to new world champion Michael Schumacher saying the German is a better driver than he was.
Prost, now a team owner, has won more Formula One races than anyone in history, but he believes Schumacher's talent surpasses his own in certain areas.

"I wasn't able to drive every car at top speed straight away. In that he is better than me," said Prost, referring to Schumacher's amazing ability to push it to the limit on his first flying lap out of the pits.

The Frenchman, now 45, drove for Ferrari in 1990-91. He came close to winning the championship in his first year, but lost out when he was barged out of the Japanese Grand Prix by arch-rival Ayrton Senna.

Big risk

Prost was eventually sacked by Ferrari for publicly criticising the car at the end of an uncompetitive 1991 season in which the team did not win a race.

He believes Ferrari took a big risk in concentrating its whole team on one driver in the way it has with Schumacher.

But he says it would not have ended its barren spell if it had not. Schumacher has this year become the first man to win the drivers' world title for Ferrari since Jody Scheckter in 1979.

"It was a risk for Ferrari to introduce the Schumacher system," said Prost. "Naturally you can criticise that everything was done to cater for just one man. But for Ferrari it was the only way. To succeed they needed the discipline.

"Without a driver of his calibre (thats Prost talking Frans), Ferrari would hardly have survived the last five seasons without a title. Without Michael, the team would have been politically destroyed."

Prost's mark of 51 Grand Prix victories is now well within the reach of Schumacher, who has won 43. The German has two years left on his Ferrari contract and has averaged over four wins a season since he joined the team in 1996.

Schumacher, who now has three world titles to his name, could also overtake Prost's mark of four championships. Only Argentine Juan Manuel Fangio won more - he took five between 1951 and 1957.

Schumacher's previous titles were in 1994 and 1995 with Benetton.

cheapracer, if you see the Macau GP in isolation I would go with you in your reasoning.
However, given the season finals of 1994 (Hill) and 1997 (Villeneuve) there is a clear streak in Michael to drive the opponent off the road, if nothing else works. Also in 1994 and 1997 he did not know how it would end, as he put himself at risk as well.

So I consider as65p´s version, that Schumi was brake testing Hakkinen, to be definitely possible, given the history of Michael Schumacher.

Nice to hear the Nose also has an personal opinion. Good find of you cheap. Now what? Prost as well wasn't my kind of racer, more a driver and calculator.....

Sure you don't want to put a lot of effort into this silly thread....after all you have only posted nine times in it!

So what I enjoy some mild debate in my favorite forum (the only forum I do debate in), look at the length of the posts, a couple of sentences, big deal.

Why would any driver brake test another and run the risk of eliminating himself, I would guess you haven't competed in motorsports to have such outsiders thinking.

1994 he clearly had track position, how many times must that be discussed? (Forever apparently). Please don't post again on the subject unless you are willing to include the entire 1994 season facts leading up to that moment Pirate Pete (with a patch over one eye).

1997 was indeed a sour point from him, leading by 1 point and in the lead and your car breaks down must be frustrating however. He was DQ'ed from the entire year what more do you want?

By the way in that race JV intentionally let Hakki and DC past refusing to race for his position on the last lap, now what would you rather see - a Guy who's fights for everything or a Guy who moves over and lets cars through intentionally? And you do know that Frentzen who was ahead of JV had to slow and let JV though under team orders? You know exactly the same team orders that everyone whines about at Austria 2004.

There you go, 3 sentences costing me a whole 3 minutes.

Oh I edited just now adding another minute.

Your clearly a new-by to racing heh.... never karted? And don't ask WHY Schumacher did it to us, as HIM. Schumacher simply was thát messed up in the head, why can't you get that? He would rather go off together that that another driver could accomplish it to overtake him. It's in his nature.



Blah blahblah, you smoke weed more than I do. I respect you man!!



yeah what else? they should have taken the points from the team as well, and they should get rid of the points in his overall classification in the books, and the victories should be taken away from him + he should have been banned for 6 races the next season.

Something else you wanna know?

You seem to forget that from 97 on they were reunited at Ferrari. So it should say it took THEM years to win their first title at Ferrari. So what is you take there - Ross wasn't at his prime back then so it took him so much longer or Shumi was not as good as Button so that was what had offset Ross?

Alone Schumacher was a brilliant driver.

Alone Brawn was a brilliant technical director and strategist.

On balance I'd say Schumacher made slightly more contribution to the success of Ferrari and Benetton, as often Brawn's strategies wouldn't have paid off with any other driver in the car (Hungary '98 being a prime example.) Put together with Rory Byrne designing the cars they were an almost unstoppable team, and the combination of clever strategies and Schumacher's genius let them win several races they really shouldn't have won: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTgLf3mNva0...feature=related

Great Post. I totally agree. How rare to see some common sense and logic on this forum.

11 posts and counting...

Well, I was only racing in karts so I am in no position to know better than you. However, if done cleverly, the one in front can brake test the guy behind in a way to put him out of the race, you should know that. Had not Senna done so with Mansell (or Prost) ?

The Pirate Pete thing I don't get, sorry, I don't know the term.

The whole Jerez 1997 thing was a sorry affair, yet from a driver's point of view it can be disputed if Schumi's or Jacko's sins were worse. I rather think the intra- and inter-team orders were something managed by Patrick Head and someone at McLaren.

Well, stuff comes always full circle. Wasn't 1997 the last WDC that Williams has won?
I did not agree with Jerez 1997 team orders as well as with Austria 2002.

And again, let me state, that I believe that Schumi and Brawn together were the most formidable force. Also the voting in the poll starts to show a trend in that direction.
Surely Rory Byrne had his part in it.
Still I admire Ross for the achievements of 2009 and I am utterly amazed about them. I think it is truly unique in the history of the sport.

So thanks for educating me, and, as you are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to mine, however wrong they may be.

That argument makes sense; so there is no point in using it in a discussion with Sennistas on a roll.

That's fantastic reasoning; if applied onto e.g. Ayrton Senna, it would suggest that all his Formula 3 and early F1 collisions happened on purpose, given his Suzuka 90 history.

excellent reply

Aaah, giacomo!

Nice you grace this thread! I still have visions of you crowning Jenson Button the king of F1~!

You have visions of myself crowning Jenson Button? Go and see a doctor.


Btw, what a nice and low profile attempt to avoid the point I made.

The art of observation..... or how was the exact wording?

So you were lurking and want me to comment on the point you made?
Well, it was you yourself who said that if Jenson continues his run for a few seasons then you would crown him the king of F1!

And myself, for need of a better picture how you look like, imagine you as the muppet gentleman you use as your avatar.
I won't have to see the doctor. But I'll have cramps in my belly (from laughing, that is) for days after the crowning ceremony.



I sincerely appreciate you and your posts, even if we are sometimes on opposite ends of the spectrum.

It wasn't Button but Brawn, but who cares... Button, Brawn, all the same, none of them a Senna, right?

And it was the power of accurate observation; evidently not your greatest strenght.

Alas, you beat me always by lengths to it. What's your profession? Or does the power of accurate observation come natural to you?
Right, you will crown Brawn, now at least I got you into admitting it

So Senna you would never crown, what a pity. It hurts me deeply.

Cannot remember myself denying that... another observation problem probably...

Well, at least you told me to see a doctor, but that was probably because of my 'visions'.





There appears to be someone whom you wanted to tease with this remark...
So much even the power of my weak observation is telling me.

Try hard to remember: You were talking about myself crowning Button.

As always, you are right.

See, I can never "win" against you!

Golden words.

Concerning Senna, I can't find the poll about 'Senna vs Dennis' or 'Senna vs Newey'.

Shall I start it?

It would be awesome to finally learn the truth about how Dennis could have got those WDCs without Ayrton.

Well, it was Brawn who became a winner again by joining Schumacher at Ferrari. Not vice versa.

No it would be one of the longest flame/bait/troll threads going and it would be but 3 posts before Schumachers name came up

Senna fans are in a league all their own, a very strange twilight zone league at that.

You guys are funny constantly bringing up Senna in a Brawn/Schumacher thread.
I wonder who has the stronger fixation on Senna, the Senna fans you seem to know so well or Johny Bravo, giacomo and cheapracer.

You should start such a Senna/Dennis thread to find out how people think about it. As things stand, it should be in the nostalgia forum, as both Senna and Dennis are not in F1 anymore nor associated to it.

Well, its very obvious that this is a thread made by Senna fans in order to belittle Schumacher.


I wonder about another fixation; the fixation of Senna fans like you or as65p on downgrading guys like Schumacher and Prost.

Just found out that you were the first one to bring Senna into your very own Brawn/Schumacher thread. Post 28.

But you're one the the biggest MS-lovers on the board.

And you are one of the biggest MS-haters. So what?

Brawn is the reason you can't say Schumy was the most complete driver ever [best package].
While Prost had his boring and coward strategy, at least it was his own strategy and very often he had some variants when he wanted to, being very agressive in Paul Ricard and Suzuka.
But Michael spend his whole career being told what to do, focused only on the driving side.
It is like reducing MS to dirty shopfloor worker while Brawn was the foreman.

I think it was a brilliant idea to split MS body and brain and make a fight against each other... that so evil.

It's okay to bring drivers like Senna, Schumacher and Prost up once or twice in any driver relevant thread, after all, these three represent the modern heritage of F1 like few others.

The difference is that I would not bring up Senna constantly in a Brawn/Schumacher thread. You do.

And it goes even further than this: 2009 saw both Brawn and Schumi at the pitwall, the one for Brawn GP, the other one for Ferrari.
Here it becomes fully evident who has the genius strategy calls: Ross Brawn.

Whenever Michael was at the Ferrari pitwall, things went inexplicably wrong.
Some sources say that Schumacher is just at Ferrari's pitwall but has nothing to say. Michael has nothing to say? Give me a break.
Why then have such an expensive adviser to the team?
As always in the long career of Michael Schumacher, some things simply don't add up.

Brawn delivers.

MS: Baldo and Domenico... I advise you not to ask for my advice.

I think MS' advisor hole is actually a kind of gardening leave.

Also I think Ms is a bit dumb and at the same time very wise.
Ms is wise bcs he tries to be surounded by very intelligent and with complementary skills to his own.
Be it Weber, Brawn, Todt or his Guru, MS was supported by people giving him good advice.
On the other side, once his satelite supporters left his core, MS efficiency dropped tremendously, IMO.

First his Guru, then Brawn, then everything MonteZ booted him from the team.
MS now looks like a lost dog, trying to make Superbike to be make some maintenance on his core skills and abilities.

Schumi, Brawn, Bernie, The FIA, they all needed each other. A bit of a perfect storm situation lol.

I'm not so sure about option 2. I was in Macau the year before, now how the conditions can be, the roughness of the road. Also I saw the footage of the 90 race. It was winding quite strongly that day. You can see plastic bags being blown across the street down at the harbor. So the conditions were not that easy.

Also nobody has explained it to me if MS needs to be ahead by some margin, how braking early would help him. Or how MH crashing possibly into him would have helped him?

I'd be prepared to write it off as brain fart from both. MS not pushing it too hard anymore, and Mika a bit too eager to win.

+1

Yah, history has ended with 1996. Further developements are not relevant.
End of the story.

Sorry...what did Ferrari really win in 1996? they were in it in a few races but mostly the blew up and were quite a bit behind Williams like everyone else. It was not until the whole team reasembled at ferrari that MS started competing for the WDC and it still took 4 yrs to win. Nothing wrong with that as this is a team sport and I think you belittle the contributions for everyone envolved by saying it was JUST MS or JUST Brawn.

Clearly, the way the Brawn team has performed with all that happened over the winter is quite impressive and does speak to Ross's ability to run a team and manage his drivers. Equally, Button has really only looked chumpy one season against Fisi in a horrible car in his second season in F1. The rest of the time he has looked pretty strong compared to teammates and he has pretty much handled Reubens.

So you have a great team manager coupled with a strong driver that is consistent and fast that have done a great job with car design this year that also have one of the best engines in F1 now. Why would you be suprised if they were competitive.

Also why would you be surprised if people, after seeing this, start to recognize that Brawn did actually have something to do with MS's and Ferrari's success? Did you think they were paying him because they just liked him?

Most of this seems like defensive Fanboyisms.

You make it sound like as if Irvine lost the title just because of that single team error. More interesting was how when Schumacher fell out because of his injury Ferrari dropped back gradually race by race. They still carried the momentum into the first two races without Schumi and albeit with luck, Eddie won. Then in Hungary he had no hope against the McLarens. Then in the next few races he didn't even have hope against cars like Jordan and Stewart. To me it seemed almost that they had a problem with finding good setups without Michael.

Oh dear! How pathetic jealous Senna fans get?

Put Ross in the car and let's see how he delivers THEN.