The poll has now reached over 250 participants, thus making it one of the more representative polls on the Autosport BB, taken the number of entries.
The picture emerging has been more or less stable for the last hundred or so entries:

Brawn or Schumacher
Ross is the complete package - with or without Michael Schumacher! - 33.07%
Schumi could have done it without Ross Brawn! - 21.65%
No, the two needed each other, none would have become what they are now without each other! - 38.58%
I see no correlation/no opinion on this - 6.69%


That means, every third poster believes Ross is the one, a little more than every fifth person believes Schumi is the one, nearly 2 out of 5 believe that they both "made each other". One out of fifteen has no opinion on this question or sees no correlation.

So there is a certain leaning towards Ross being the more influential of the two, although a team boss/strategist/technical director can hardly be compared to a driver.
Also, Schumi's active career is behind him, whereas Ross is especially shining this year, which probably explains his advantage in the poll. You are always as good as your last race (which would mean Schumi is still very good, taken his last race in F1....).

The majority is aware of the fact that none can be seen in separation in a team sport like F1, so in a certain way both made each other.

Thanks for participating to everyone!

Someone once here wrote on this very Bulletin Board (and he emphasized he is not a Schumacher fan) that they had an opportunity to talk to Steve Matchett once, who was working for Benetton at the time. He was asked about this claim by Herbert and he said it wasn't true, they always compared his data with Schumacher's.

Edit: Ah, here it is: http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?show...bert+Schumacher

I think jimm cannot be accused of being a Schumacher fan and making this up.

Yes, I considered that but then I also had to consider that Ferrari won 3 of 4 championship titles in the 2 years following their departures from the team. That's why I say it's due primarily to Ferrari.

And the current Ferrari team is built upon what the "Dream Team" left behind. Stefano Domenical grew up as an apprentice of Todt (whether a good or bad one is not the point now). So you will never be able to credit success to just one man or say that from a group of people this part had a bigger role than that one. That's why discussions like this are pointless, IMO.

you got it.. That's the reason why I have been unable to vote.

so what.. that does not prove a single thing. It just proves that Ferrari hired a good driver and good engineer.. Its the car that is the most important factor.

And the car has nothing to do with having good engineers?

Ross Brawn said about a year ago or so that when he went to Ferrari it was in a lot worse condition than Honda when he joined! At the time when he said that it was a surprising comment because Honda seemed to be in a pretty bad shape. However what he meant was the organization, the infrastructures, the facilites and so. At Honda, he said, everything was in its place already when he arrived. The team had a good structure, not too different from the big teams'. It had one of the best infrastructures and facilites too. He just had to make them work. Ferrari, according to him, was lower than that in 1997. They didn't even have a design office in Maranello...

Of course it does, but its ultimately a combination of many other factors.. resources, teamwork, some help from FIA, tires, technology, ..etc, etc.
I can't for a second think that one single man would/should be responsible for all the work that is put into these cars.

Ross Brawn is the Miracle Man.

You're right, it wasn't Schumacher all by himself.

Button may be the smoothest driver I have seen since the era of Clark, Stewart, Amon and Andretti but his wanderings in the Honda wasteland proved he needs a perfect car, when the Honda was bad but still driveable Rubens could to an extent drive around the problems that thwarted Jenson.
In contrast Schumacher had that very rare ability to do very fast laps in sick car.

Now Ross has given Jenson car built around his needs in the way Chapman built a car around Clark or Uncle Ken gave JYS a team built around him.

But which of the two drivers would I want in my team Button of course! Schumacher comes with just too much bad karma.

Ross Brawn not only has turned round the former Honda team without Schumacher but he did it without "La Grenouille".
Some credit must also go to Nick Fry for having the brains to know he needed Ross.

You stated that it was Ferrari that made them succesful, the records show you are incorrect as they were already both succesful before going to Ferrari. They were hired because Ferrari wanted them to bring that success to Ferrari.

when they went to Ferrari they became part of Ferrari therefore what I said is 100% on the money..

If you say so.

Agnelli hired Todt to brake Ferrari's curse as his last attempt, as he knew he was already very old and wanted to see Ferrari shinning again.
Todts first years were not fully successful, but Agnelli gave him stability and a blank check.
Jean Todt brought Schumy, but his magic alone wasn't enough to win the WDC/WCC, so JT brought the whole package - Rory Byrne and Ross Brawn.
Brawn won before joining Ferrari and had a experience of working with Piquet, a 3xWDC.
And Piquet was the only WDC source and his benchmark for higher standards.
JT bought an immediate recipe for success as his previous shots missed the target.
Todt is a very practical man.

One thing is certain, the Schumacher-lovers like Giacomo are praying that Button doesn't win 14 races this year, or the Schumacher myth will be well and truly destroyed. That will prove Brawn is more important beyond a doubt(Button has already won 5 races in the current Brawn that is nowhere near as dominant to the next best car, as the F2004 was, which also had the tyre advantage).

You are right. Giacomo is probably pouting at this point, as the majority's voting was not in favour of his views. Haven't seen him around here for a while. Worse, the more races Jenson wins this year, the more the view of many posters here will be vindicated. In the end Giacomo may have to crown Brawn the king of F1, albeit reluctantly.

Have you stopped beating your wife??

The questions are poorly posed and weighted to what you want to hear.

Not to spoil your party, but Giacomo said that he will crown Brawn the king of F1 if he wins five titles in a row with Button...

And I suggest to Schumacher-haters like you to have a life outside of praying that somebody, anybody "destroys the Schumacher myth".

Anyway, if the "Schumacher myth" is destroyed by if Brawn wins with another driver than the "Senna myth" has been destroyed long before by Dennis winning with many other drivers than Ayrton.

Seems I'm deep under the skin of a certain kind of people here.

So you are relishing the well deserved attention you get!

wow.. Button is kicking ass a la Shumacher.. It goes to show how any good driver can simply dominate the field with the best car..

"It was a perfect drive, a wonderful drive," Brawn told the BBC. "The guys in the team told me that Jenson is an exceptional driver. I didn't see a lot of that last year but now I believe them."

The poll will be irrelevant at the end of the year, when Brawn declares "Button is a better than Schumacher".

maybe if he wins 7 titles

he probably would not be able to do it at this stage. But he would have if he had the same dominant car for 6 more seasons and Rubens as teammate.

Long long ago I read an Italian article where di Montezemolo said that Lauda was Ferrari's first choice of team manager. But he couldn't due to running his airline, so instead they took Todt and hired Lauda as personal consultant for di Montezemolo, and was also supposed to help out Todt with stuff Todt didn't have experience of.

I wonder what would've been of Ferrari had Lauda been team manager instead...

Well, a lot of people here are declaring exactly that for a while now.

The very same people who always suggest that guys like Herbert and Barrichello were better than Schumacher as well, and only sneaky schemings within the team detained them from destroying the slow and evil German.

See what he did at Jaguar... And Laudas consultant job was just laughable. His main idea was to 'Hire Barnard'; years after Barnards sell out date.

i think it's not unreasonable to claim that even a driver like Schumacher, would have been able to win at least 3 races up untill now in this season if he would compete with the very same car Button got under his button this season so far.

I'd give him that much then......

happy? I just gave Schumacher and big fat compliment here. save it.

Amusing thread to look into once in a while

Obviously it's a bit silly to put Button on the same pedestal or even higher than Schumacher, the latter was driving at at least the same level as Button is now for many, many years, and has shown to be a force even with lesser cars.

But indeed this season proves whats possible with a brilliant car and Ross Brawn pulling the strings (not to forget the vital ingredient of Rubinho as the 2nd driver ;)). Finally there's a top driver required to complete the package and Button right now seems to fill that role just as efficiently as MS did in his time.

And it seems that exactly the right kind of people are annoyed by this observation...

Taken from another thread:



This is becoming more and more clear - Ross Brawn is pulling the strings like never before, he appears better at it then ever before, in a field that is much closer together than any other field in years I can remember.

And then there is Jenson - as Josta mentions, with the same number 1b like Michael Schumacher had, he pulls out a more commanding lead (61 out of 65 possible points ahead of 35 points) than the great Michael Schumacher (60 out of 70 possible points ahead of 46 points).

We are watching a formidable season, albeit a very boring one. Button/Brawn may turn out to be the most powerful combination in the history of the sport, and this in a season much closer in terms of time differentials than any season I can think of.

yeah, after this season, nobody will be looking with amazement to the achievements everybody believed where done all singlehanded by the Great Sjoemelmacher.

hahahaha, luve it.

if your flame bating, neandathodic logic is right......then not even Senna's record will be looked upon with amazement!
Infact then no one else's record would be amazing!
Fangio, Jim clark, Prost, Alonso, Lewis all just good cars nothing else!

No no no, you don't get it. This only applies to a certain German driver. ONLY. it's EXCLUSIVE 4-ever.

It is true that Frans is relishing the moment.

Yet that cannot lead away from the fact that what Brawn and Button are achieving together is momentous. It is at this moment even shadowing the most dominant season of all Schumacher seasons, 2004.

And this with a field that is closer together than any in known history.

I am watching in amazement how the season will still pan out. Even if it is really boring the way it is, at the same time it is a testament to the genius of Ross Brawn and to the fact that he doesn't necessarily need a Michael Schumacher to do what he does. A Jenson Button is doing just as well.

It is quite fitting also that 2004 was Jensons' best season to date. Only beaten by the dominant Ferraris of MS and RB.

Sorry I dont get it, exactly how did Brawn help Button take a start to finish win (from a strategic point of veiw)?

Did he cause Vettel to have his off?

Maybe he was the one that told Red Bull to give Vettel a 3 stopper - yes, that has to be it.

Maybe he said on the radio: "BUTTON, GO GOGOOOOOOO" júst on the ríght moment..... with an electrical shock in the chair to let Button react in lightning speed!!!!!!!


Or .....you just don't get it.

Now now its not shadowing 2004 dominant season yet!
Schumy won race after race after race. and won first 6 races in a row. and would have won the 7th aswell!
And he won the next 7 in a row to conclude a 13 race victory in 14 races!
Tell me this after 14 races, then i will believe.
You guys are just excited to see him win these races now.

The field is close behind him not in front or between him
with some rookies and some old grandpa as his teammate
And the best drivers with crap car.
pretty much flattering him.

Yes he dont need MS to achieve "this"
But he needs someone like MS to win race after race and win 5 WDC in a row!

Yeah otherwise it will blow the bubble of hatred for you, isnt it.

Good points.

"You guys are just excited to see him win these races now." - Absolutely!

I guess what you're saying with your post is that the dominant driver (Schumacher in 04, Button in 09) really needs to be judged against the competition. This year it's 'some rookies and some old grandpa'. It's difficult so suggest that a driver is exceptional if that is the quality of the competition. So, what was the quality of the leading competitors to Schumacher in 04?























Some bloke called Button....

you are getting me out of context!
read what was i responding to and then jump the gun!

Slartibartfast got your context quite well. When you say Button's competition is some youngsters (Vettel) and a grandpa (Webber, Trulli, Barrichello?) he would like to remind you of the fact that Schumi's opposition in 2004 was mainly one Jenson Button and the man you call now grandpa. Neither Raikkonen, nor Alonso, nor Montoya were up to the task of challenging Schumi at that time, like now neither Vettel nor Trulli nor Glock are.

Well, in hindsight the names Raikkonen, Alonso, Montoya have more weight, as there are three WDC's between them, but wait a few years, and you might have some of this years names risen to more prominence.

Button's name is only really gaining weight this season, he had to wait nine years for that. Finally Jenson has gotten there thanks to.....
















Ross Brawn.

I voted for option (1) Ross being the important part but he was lucky with a rules interpratation re DD andthis has hampered the other teams.
He also has had access to probably the highest budget thanks to Honda and the best engine thanks to Mercedes. But it was Ross who managed to get all of this into one package with a good driver.

Why are you so obsessed with putting down Schumacher's achievements?

I can understand Frans, but to be honest you are almost on the same level only expressing yourself in a more sophisticted way.

What's your point at all? That Schumacher was average? That he was nothing special at all? That Button is as good or better? C'mon tell us, what do you want to tell us with this thread?

It's funny to see you anti-Schumachers get so excited about Button, not because you have ever been a fan of his (or Ross, for that matter), but just for the fact that you think that would "overshadow" Schumacher's achivements. Pathetic in my opinion.

No matter how dominantly Button wins this year's title (and I actually wouldn't mind it) it would take a LOT, LOT more from him to "overshadow" Schumacher and you know that.

So what? In 2002 Michael's advantage on Rubens was 48 points after 7 races. Even if we give Austria to Rubens and take that away from Michael that's still 40 points... And out of Michael's 5 titles at Ferrari Rubens wasn't even second in the WDC...

As for taking 2004 as your measure (why not another season when Michael pulled a bigger gap on Rubens?), it's also interesting to compare their qualifyings then. Of course the qualifying systems were different so it's not easy to compare, but let's try to get a clear picture. In 2004 we had two single lap qualies before each race the advantage or disadvantage being not the fuel loads but how dirty the track was. Drivers rolled on the track in the order of the previous race so whoever one first and so on - an attempt by the rule makers to avoid domination by one driver, not that they succeeded...

So in the first 7 races of 2004 there were 14 qualifyings. There Michael beat Rubens by an average of 0.460 seconds despite of the fact that out of 14 occasions 11 times he was the one first on the track between them...

This year the average gap between Jenson and Rubens is 0.210 seconds with Rubens being heavier than Jenson five times out of seven. (I didn't count Q2s, if I had counted them that would be worse for Jenson as there Rubens actually beats him by 5-2.)

Add to that that here we are talking about a 29-year-old Jenson against a 37-year-old Rubens. In 2004 it was a 35-year-old Michael against a 32-year-old Rubens.

Finally, you know I like to tease you back with the great Senna (because obviously your Senna-fandom is what moves your agenda against Schumacher), so here's one if you like these teammate comparations:

What about 1992 when Senna could only beat Berger by one point in the WDC? What does it tell us about the greatness of Senna?

It's not pathetic. It's the truth. Schumacher fans always tend to think just as simple as that as well. What's the difference?

Hold on!

This question will be answered in the upcoming sequel to this thread, titled:

Dennis or Senna?

featuring the same cast as this, but with roles reversed for even more guaranteed fun!

Don't miss it!