Okay if you feel the majority on your side, than we can scrap the "most", it's not really relevant for this argument. Let's just say that the level of superiority of Buttons car to day is comparable to those cars of MS 2002/2004.

I hope we can agree on that phrasing. Unless you argue from the angle that "Button can, by definition, never do what MS has done, therefore the Brawn this year must be more superior than the 2002/04 Ferraris", we should be able to meet at this point.



I was under the impression that you've been around long enough to know what to make of Peter Windsor?!

For all those thought Button will do a 13 out of 14 wins ala 2004
British GP Winner 2009 >>> S.Vettel

It is really funny to re-read this overhasty thread now, as Button/Brawn don't look at ease at all.

I am happy for you, giacomo. You will not have to crown Brawn "King Of Formula 1" now....

Yeah u are right
No one will answer here , man what all garbages we heard here!
Thank god its all put to rest now

After all it looks like Brawn need Schumacher to achieve what they achieved!
Well only thing he got right is his No.2 driver

I answered already before you posted. My commiserations for the death of Michael Jackson, by the way!

Yup Michael Jackson is a Legend
Always miss him and his Legendary Music

What is Michael Jackson doing in this thread?

OK, I know now! Look what I've found:



Forget Alonso! Michael Jackson didn't die! He is just preparing a career change - as a Ferrari driver!

(The pic is real!)

That is really outrageous, Galko. I never had an idea about Jacko.

Jochen Rindt was the first WDC posthumous, Michael Jackson will be the first posthumous driver.

So much is obvious now. However, let Hungaroring with much higher temperatures roll along and we might see a very different picture again!

Wow....... cool pic for MJ

On topic:
Brawn's stratergy all falling apart isnt it?!
He is trying to do the famous 3 and 4 stopper trick put their drivers on lead, but instead they are going even backwards
Its the 4th time he tried 3 stopper with his drivers and miserably failing on all occasions
Seems the Brawn is missing Schumacher afterall and need him to pull off something like 1998 Hungary

Hey, sreevishnu, I answered your post before you posted it! Obviously I am able to time travel!!!

EDIT: what is going on??
How could you answer my post before i post it ??????

So the season is coming towards its end, and despite giacomo´s sceptical stance Ross has, although the Brawn Supremacy faltered a little, racked up 8 victories this year.
Schumi in his Brawn-less winning year (1996) was able to gather three races wins, Ross in his Schumi-less winning year (2009) collected eight race wins, with two drivers notably (it seems that the strict number one driver policy that was in place in the Schumacher years, is not necessary).

What is more, Ross has proved to be a real down-to-earth guy, he is laid back, relaxed, friendly and humorous, even while competing. Schumacher is not that chilled and easy going, even when not competing, although his human side has definitely improved since he is personally out of direct competition in F1.

Now we will see if Brawn will remain dominant for two more years, then giacomo will have the honor of crowning Ross for the real king of F1!

You are comparing 1996 Ferrari to 2009 Brawn

Maybe you should re-watch 1996 Spanish GP

It is so quiet in this threat now. This thread is really dead

We don't need to wait for next year, do we? Without MS, Brawn is not what MS haters all praise.
I am a fan of Ferrari dream team, including Brawn. But Brawn does not design the car nor drive it. Where is the magic of Brawn now?

And not a single mention of the Double Diffuser

Brawn haven't faired so well as the others have finally caught up have they?

Dead thread.

funny how you skipped Ross's Schumi-less 1996 year, wonder why ;)

LOL....this thread is so funny
All those who were loud mouthing about Button having 6wins out of 7 ....and he is going to win the rest of it
hahaha.... he just had 1 podium in the rest of the 9 race

This shows Brawn NEED Schumy to do what he did before!

I'm sure neither would have reached as high as they both did had they not ever worked toghether.

Having said that, since in Formula 1 the car, adn the team carry a lot more weight than the driver, then I guess I would have to go with Brawn if I were to have to choose between one or the other. I mean, what good is having Schumacher if you can't build a winner for him to win in?

Ross has proven that he can build a car good enough so that a good enough driver can win in it, and I guess you need that.

Ross doesn't build cars, he is not a designer....

Plus let's see where BrawnGP will ne next year when they will not have the DD advantage anymore.

I get the feeling that this is the F60 Thread-turned-into-Ferrari glory years-Nostalgia Thread Now, when do Ron Dennis, the 2007 Spy Saga and good old fashioned McLaren bashing make their appearance. Should be any time now, me thinks

I would say that Schumacher and Ferrari could not have done it without Jean Todt and Ross Brawn.

The question is answered. Schumacher was the only driver in F1 history who managed to drive at the top for so many years without failing to deliver.

Though that might have just a tiny bit to do with having good cars for all those years, it does help you know

I would say that Ferrari could not have done it without Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher.

Well, I meant the same thing only I was also saying that Schumacher also would not have achieved what he achieved without Todt and Brawn. To Ferrari though Todt and Brawn however were even more substantial. Without the two Ferrari would not be anywhere near the team it is now or perhaps I should say were a couple of years ago. The team as it is operated now will have a hard time in trying to match the kinda success levels common to Ferrari during the Todt and Brawn era.

they do not have Schumacher either.

It was the Todt-Brawn-Schumacher era. Funny how people are still trying to take credit from Schumacher when he was earlier at Ferrari than Brawn. Actually Brawn said once that the fact Schumacher switched to Ferrari made him believe in the project.

Not as dead as you think. Since being reopened half a day ago the poll drew 27 more votes, confirming the picture that those of you in favour of Schumacher so inaptly try to deny.
Brawn made Schumi to a much more pronounced degree than Schumi made Brawn.

Schumi has only three GP wins to his record without Ross...

It doesn't confirm anything besides opinions.



It's still more than what Ross won without Schumi in 1996....

And BTW, how many titles did your hero Senna have without McLaren, ie. Ron Dennis?

How many wins, you should have asked, to make it a valid comparison.

Ayrton Senna had six wins without Ron Dennis.
Michael Schumacher had three wins without Ross Brawn.

Ayrton Senna had zero titles without Ron Dennis.
Michael Schumacher had zero titles without Ross Brawn.

In total, Ross Brawn won 8 races without Schumacher.
In total, Michael Schumacher won 3 races without Brawn.

I don´t see Schumacher coming out on top in two of the three comparisons. In the third (championships) he equals Senna.

FACT: Brawn followed Schumacher, not other way around. It speaks volume about who needs who.
If Brawn is such important to MS career, he would not have left Ross Brawn in first place at the end of 1995.
For someone who considers winning is the only thing that matters like MS, leaving Beneteton at that time means he believes that he could be successful at Ferrari without R Brawn.

Saying number of wins of AS without RD is more than number of wins of MS without Brawn to prove that MS cannot win many without R Brawn and MS is not as good as AS is really childish.

Both Brawn and MS are overrate. Where is Rory Byrne?

In fact, it was when Rory Byrne stepped down as Chief Designer that Ferrari never returned to their dominate form they had early 2000.

MS needed Rory Byrne and Ross Brawn if he convinces Ferrari that they absolutely need to hire those guy from the Benetton team. Rory Byrne was about to retire at the 1995 season but Ferrari managed to sign him.

Brilliant, qvn!
Brawn would not have left Ross Brawn in the first place at the end of 1995.

So Ross was never the same ever since, as he had left himself.






Well thank you very much, it was just a response to Galko877. And, as you speak "FACT", what I put in my response to Galko877 was also simple facts:




Take it all with a pinch of salt, btw.

aditya-now and his silly little anti Schumacher campaign again.

for stamina and effort, for reasoning.

Since an engineers career is longer than a driver's, your comparation is very fair, bravo!

But if you want to play that game: how many titles and races did Ron Dennis win without Ayrton Senna?

Isn't it amazing that the Schumacher bashing and belittling threads usually come from the usual suspects: the most fanatical Senna fans? I wonder why.

Senna had 6 wins without Dennis.
Schumacher had 3 wins without Brawn.

Further:
Berger had 7 wins without Dennis.
Clark had 0 wins without Chapman.
Prost had 21 wins without Dennis.
Scheckter had 7 wins without Ferrari/Forghieri.


So, according to aditya-now standards:
Prost >>> Berger = Scheckter > Senna > Schumacher > Clark.

In 1994 Brawn and Schumi were secondary. The key man was Tad Czapski.

in 2009 facts and reasoning are secondary. The key is agenda.

MS has no idea whether Brawn and Byrne would join him when he left Benetton at the end of 1995.

It was just after a year without MS, Brawn thought it was enough and he decided to follow MS to join him in Ferrari. Without MS being in Ferrari, I am pretty sure that Byrne would have been leading his Scuba Diving school in Thailand since the end of 1996.

Wow that's actually quote material. Should be given as a warning to any new members .. well basically anyone responding to trolls, including me.

It is the usual suspects Galko877 and giacomo when it comes to responding to my good-natured inputs.
As we have been silent on that front for several months now it was time to say hello to each other again
Particularly I can imagine the joy of seeing each other again in giacomo, therefore, thanks for the three thumbs up and the one thumb down.

Jokes aside, 2009 panned out differently than it first seemed, yet the original theme of the poll remained, and wow, what a season did Brawn GP deliver! A breeze of fresh air.

So for me, in this unequal comparison, definitely Brawn, as seems to be the feeling of more voters here as well. And the minority continues to bash poor aditya-now.

Imaginary dialogue after Australia 94:

RB: Fantastic job, Michael!
MS: Thanks, Tad!!! Thanks for the option 13!!!
RB: No, Michael. I am Ross.
MS: Errr. Yeah, thanks Ross.
RB: It´s nothing. We all should give thanks to Tad.
PS: Good crash against Damon. Clean and effective.
MS: Yeah, everything went as planned. "If Damon tries to overtake you, put him out of the track". Thank you, Pat.

In 1994 Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher were part of a bunch of cheaters called Benetton. It doesn´t matter who has been more important throughout all these years. Their first success was built thanks to a cheat. It´s hard to forget how this people began to build his legend...

Thanks! Imaginary dialogues in your head explain quite a lot about you

Brawn and Byrne didn't need MS. Alot of drivers would have easily brought 7 WDC in the cars those guy made for MS like Alonso and Lewis if they were driving F1 back then.

that car didn't look like a world beater in 1996 for some reason. Perhaps due to the lack of having MS in the team?