Do You actually realise the sheer and plain idiocy of this statement?

That´s of course a real quality statement.

I don´t know why you guys are so bitter. All I was saying is that Ross and Michael together were greater than the sum of the parts. That´s why I even included option number 3 in the poll, contrasting an earlier poll that had only Ross is greater versus Michael is greater.

I sincerely believe that they both made each other, learned from each other.

As for Schumi´s record before entering F1, it is not that great, as pointed out already in the OP. Being beaten by Frentzen and Wendlinger.

Time to start a new poll:

Who is better: Balbir Singh or Flavio Briattore?

Balbir won 5 WDCs with Schumacher, whilst Flavio only 4 (2 with MSC, 2 with Alonso).

I think you should read again the OP. Your tries to ridicule this justified question (look at the votes in the poll, they tell you that not all have such difficulties understanding the issue like you....) are simply weak attempts to lead away from the fact that Ross Brawn was obviously a very lucky factor in the career of Michael Schumacher.

Dear Aditya:

I don't think anyone says the contrary. But even if Schumacher:Brawn:Ferrari were larger than every factor put together does not mean that Schumacher was not a far greater asset than Brown per se.

Now Brawn is a racing engineer and a team owner. He does not make the car or the driver. This year he has had by far the most dominant car (even the declining Barrichello is often second) and his most important rivals are in disarray.

The link I submitted is not about tires: of course there were different tires, different cars, but almost everybody agrees that first and foremost there were different drivers.

So, without taking anything away from Brawn's achievements this year, Schumacher was the main factor in his own success.

I really think one has to face reality. I do not like Michael Schumacher. I could live with his youthful follies (Hill and Villeneuve), but when, in his last year, he faked an accident in Monaco, I lost all respect for him. But I cannot but acknowledge that as a driver he was sublime: he could push from start to finish (Ayrton could not) and be notably faster than everybody else.

Consider his last race, in Brazil: who else could have done what he did?

It was Schumacher's genius that allowed Brown to chose almost any strategy he liked (2 stops, 3 stops, 4 stops) and yet Schumacher would win. He could stay in slicks in the rain for longer than anyone else and yet be fast; he could push like mad and gain 10 seconds when everybody thought his race was gone; he could overtake where others could not (Montoya was a great overtaker too, and to a lesser extent, so was Coulthard); he 'read the race' as no one else.

If you compare Brawn's strategies when applied to Barrichello (while in Ferrari), you will notice that most often they would fail just because Barrichello could not push when he liked. Sometimes he was extremely quick, others he did not, but the point is that a strategy only works when the driver can deliver.

Now for Brawn's current form. The Honda chassis is better than any other. Button said that it responded to tuning, which is the ultimate compliment. Button himself is a great driver, although not (I think) in the Schumacher league. He is fast and clean. So no wonder than Brown is reaping results. It has nothing to do with strategy (look at Barrichello, again), only with speed.

I hope you will not read hostility in this post: none is intended, as I think you know.

..

Who else would have joined a back of the grid team, dismissed the existing car as useless, focused all the teams resources on the new car and within 1 year be winning 5 out of the first 6 races of the new season.

As far as I am concerned that confirms Brawns legend.

Thanks for your kind and elaborate answer, RSNS, by the way, we both joined the forum around the same time. Happy 7th birthday next month!

....Schumacher was the main factor in his own success, yet I doubt he would have the same statistical numbers without Brawn. Of course, this is just my personal opinion.....

.....Schumis last race was sublime, a true signature race, a worthy way to leave the sport if there ever was one. Yet Brazil 2006 did not provide the statistical results that made Schumi what he is today in the record books. Look no further than Gilles Villeneuve, he had quite some races like Brazil 2006, yet he is nowhere in the record books.....

....Honda/Brawns record this year has long been coming, yet it was Ross who really put it all together to work. I don't think this fact can be overlooked by anyone. It was Brawns decisions in 2008 and 2009 that made them as strong as they are now.....

....Barrichello is the same Barrichello at Brawn that he was at Ferrari, I see no difference, whatever this tells us.....

....Button is suddenly as sublime as Schumi was in his great years, I see no difference to 2002 or 2004, whatever this tells us....

I also hope you find no hostility in my answer, none is intended. I am sure you also know that. Thanks for the chance to chat in a civilized way.

love it.

the poll speaks enough. There are almost just as many stupid people then there are not.

great to know!

2009 Ross still winning, Schumacher now just a jinx, advantage Brawn

Brawn it has to be. He would have scored more or less the same results with other drivers such as Mika, Kimi, Fernando or Button as you can see right now. Schu without Ross Brawn wasn't the driving titan he's always made out to be. Just look at his stats when not being sided with Brawn.

No need to get upset if you're a Schu fan. No driver is a second faster than all the others. But clearly the best car has often been that much better than the rest.

Ok.What are his stats when not sided with Brawn? And since this ridiculous comparison thread is still going on, why not compare the only year where they went head to head?

1996 - Schumacher beats Brawn.

There is no Schumacher to challenge Brawn from another team now.So,there is no straight comparison(whatever that might mean in this case ) anymore.

The quality of the matter discussed in this thread is easily benchmarked by the fact that we have numerous replies from Frans.

Another fine poll: who contributed to more WDCs - Erja Hakkinen (2) or the F2003GA (1)?

A formula one world championship depends on many factors, and sometimes those factors are out of someone's control to influence success. 2005 neither Ross Brawn, Michael Schumacher, or anyone at Ferrari, could do anything, once the season started, to change their fortunes.


Sometimes people forget just how rare Ferrari's success this decade has been compared to f1 history's past, how often does winning 5 titles in a row happen.... And why didn't Brawn and Michael win a title in 96/97/98/99, and why did Benetton suffer so badly in 1996 without Michael? So many factors.


If the regulations regarding this season's cars in 2009 were cleared up, Ferrari/BMW, Mclaren would be much closer to Brawn GP or even taking wins from them, it's that simple, Brawn GP does a good job, but sometimes a season's success is about which team interprets the rules the wrong way, it happens, don't make Schumacher god or Brawn the brightest brain who ever lived in our times, it's about some guys in the design department making a mistake because their human.

Ferrari, you had MS-probabley one of the greatest ever
Jean Todt-probabley the greatest team boss, the man worked long hours, don't forget him,
Brawn-very brainy, but remember, he did strategies at times he knew would work only with Michael, it's called teamwork people
Mario Martellle, the engine guy, IS ROSS BRAWN A ENGINE SPECILIST? Nope, but the ferrari engines got better as the years went by, and the engines were more important back then, rather then now as engines are freezed and boring. Schumacher was even known to offer ideas to help influence reliability and efficiency of the engines, he's a driver yeah, but he wasn't a complete idiot, he's very technical, it all addes up to success, he spent the winter in 2006 making sure ferrari were in the hunt for wins rather then points like 2005. Schumacher was offered the role of team boss of Ferrari, declined it, Ferrari don't offer any driver a role like this, Michael was quite smart. It was a dream team, we'll likely never quite see the same way again.


Comparing MS and Brawn to the success were talking about without actually respecting all factors that contribute to success, and that's alot of factors, is a insult to both parties professional careers, to actually sit down and write down all the factors that helped influence wins and success would make a pretty decent length book, nothing will do justice in this thread to fully appreciate what these men did and didn't do, I've only scratched the surface of the moon with this post, to do a thread like this, you need to respect the amount of detail involved, and if you want to do that, it might of been better to pick up books on ferrari and schumacher, there are loads out there, and clearly some people don't understand the efforts and ideas that go behind the scenes to win gps, and more over, the success enjoyed by ferrari this decade is a whole different matter and animal, not even I am bold enough to attempt to explain it, because I know it will take too long, and why bother when you have books and magazines out there that have covered this already. But if some want to create a different f1 history in their heads and get approval of a small minority and believe what is written in this forum reflects true f1 history, and it wouldn't be the first time in this forum, it happens all the time, then you can't stop this, if this forum reflected truth, f1 would have about 87675 different time lines, one were Senna is still alive clashing with Schumacher, one where Schumacher won GPs and showed no special driver skills, because he was a average driver and Brawn just needed to fuel him for 3 laps longer every gp to make him win, because it's that easy, and the other teams are so stupid to not fuel their drivers the same fuel for the race, yet Brawn and Schumacher kept getting away with it!!

This is what Schumacher is about,
nursing shot tyres at Imola 2006, everyone is expecting Alonso to come out in front right? What happened, Schumacher pulled off possiby one of his best set of inlaps on show for the win at he right time, gets out in front of Alonso, and Pat Symonds, the rival to Ferrari, even comments after the race, "Michael's inlaps were fantastic", and his outlap was too. You can say alot about Michael, but Imola 2006 was a good example, Ferrari hadn't won a gp in ages, and Renault and ALonso were applying pressure, at a time of vunerability where Michael was having to work hard for his first win in the season, and clearly Ferrari was having to work harder to get the best out of their tyres compared to michelin this phase, he delivered, not bad at all for the man retiring at the end of the season. Michael was the best in the pitstop sprint era of f1, it just happened to help him achieve the strategies Brawn knew he could pull off, and that is because Michael was a very special driver, Brawn knew that, ocmbine that with all the other talents at Ferrari, you have dream team. Simple.

End of story.


With the passage of time, people forget races or perhaps they didn't exactly know what they were seeing the first time, or didn't catch the details or observe how lucky they were to watch certain drivers and teams accomplish what they did, if they didn't then, it's hard job to educate them now, but it can't hurt to try, never know who's reading:)

His record before F1 is outstanding actually, you should take that pirates patch off and look again.

Why are you set on the sports car thing, your gripping on straws, I have already pointed you to his reasonable amazing feats before F1 such as numerous Kart and open wheeler German championships.

Sports Cars are a class where you have to share driving setups and no driver gets a car thats perfect just for him, maybe this affected him, maybe he didnt like the feel of a car where he couldn't see the wheels (he had always raced open wheelers until then) and finally Senna ran a competitive Porsche 962 at the greatest drivers track, the old Nurburgring and was crap, relative, does that also make him a damaged driver by your logic?

And also why don't you fairly compare Frentzen's and Wendlinger's F1 performances oh Pirate Pete?

Karting games don't count there hey mate. His pre-F1 carreer was simply misserable. Schumacher can kiss Brawns bald ass for what he has achieved for him. Yes, it was 80% car. And that car was 100% Brawn, Michael made maybe up like 5%, his nationality did all the politcal help he needed. A great 7 time worldchamp racer? Hahaha, get real. A monkey could win in that car, even a Button......

Think about it like the Wizard of Oz. It's all smoke and mirrors, a show a circus. MS the best? Yeah great Myth what won't last another season, watch Brawn pull it off with ANY driver.

8 podiums, 59 points.
Brawn did better that year.

Should tell that to Senna, Prost .... oh hell the list is just too long.

Ironic that your join date reads April 1st, Fool.

Yeah I'm sure he was in tears all those years.....

Michael Schumacher drove in his first kart race at the age of five. Although father Rolf was not enthusiastic about his son's expensive kart ambitions, the boy was able to pursue his career because from time to time he received financial support from local sponsors. Rolf had built his first kart and registered him in the Kart-Club Kerpen-Horrem.
His enthusiasm for kart-driving continued to grow. In 1980, the members of the Kerpen kart club built a new track in Manheim, a suburb of Kerpen. Michael and his brother Ralf spent every free minute there. Michael was still too young for championship races and he had to wait until 1983 for his German kart licence. In 1984, he promptly became German Junior Champion. In 1985 he won the German Junior Championships again and also came second in the Junior World Championships in Le Mans.
In 1986 he took part in the German Senior Kart Championships for the first time, and at his very first attempt came third in the final rankings. The same thing happened at the European Senior Championships. In 1987 he had his greatest triumph yet, Michael Schumacher won both the German and the European Senior Kart Championships.

In 1988, Michael Schumacher embarked on his first season in a Formula racing car. Finally he was able to show what he had learnt in his kart days. However, the step-up proved to be difficult, he had to turn down an offer of a test drive in a Formula Ford, because he didn't have the necessary DM 500 required to start.

At the next test opportunity, he signed a contract with the Euphra Formula Ford team. Team manager Jurgen Dilk also secured Michael Schumacher a place in Formula Konig. Here Michael showed his natural talent and easily won nine races out of ten, which also assured him of the championship.

In Formula Ford 1600 he was placed sixth in the final rankings, and in the European Championships he came second behind the Finn Mika Salo.

At the end of 1988, Michael Schumacher drew the attention of Willi Weber, who was looking for up-and-coming talents. During a Formula Ford race on the rain-soaked Salzburgring, Michael stormed from 7th to 1st place during just one lap.

Weber invited him to a test drive in his WTS (Weber Tuning Stuttgart) Formula 3 team. At the test drive, Schumacher was at once a sensational 1.5 seconds faster than the established team member. A two-year contract for 1989 and 1990 was signed; Willi Weber took over the costs (ca. DM 1 million for both seasons).

In his first Formula 3 season in 1989, Michael Schumacher won two races and ended the championships just one point behind in third place, after Heinz-Harald Frentzen. The champion was Karl Wendlinger.

For Schumacher's further progress after Formula 3, Willi Weber planned years of apprenticeship with Mercedes-Benz in the Group C World Championship. He rejected the route via Formula 3000.

Schumacher was to learn how to deal with the press professionally, attend courses in rhetoric and conduct interviews in English. With regard to the racing aspect, he learnt how to cope with the car's high-level performance (nearly 700 HP) and its high speed. His experienced co-pilot Jochen Mass showed him how to tune a car professionally. Apart from this, Schumacher learnt race tactics and to drive in such a way as to conserve the materials over a long period of time.

As the current German Formula 3 champion, Michael Schumacher took part in the unofficial Formula 3 World Championships in 1990.

In Macao, Schumi had to contend with his greatest rival Mika Hakkinen, as had happened at the Formula 3 season finale in Hockenheim. Michael Schumacher won the race. In this way, he defeated the best up-and-coming talents in the world - this was his international breakthrough.

In Fuji, at another international Formula 3 race, he was again the first to pass under the black-and-white checked flag.

In 1990, Michael Schumacher managed to win something he'd just missed out on in the previous year - the Formula 3 championship title.

And this although the season hadn't exactly started positively: he had to drop out from the first two races in Zolder and Hockenheim. In the third race on the Nurburgring, he drove into the points in fifth place.

However, Schumacher then hit back; he won five of the seven remaining races and secured the title before the end of the season. At the final race in Hockenheim, he took second place behind guest driver Mika Hakkinen.

In 1990, parallel to the Formula 3 season, Michael Schumacher took part in the Group C World Championships.

Here Schumacher, Heinz-Harald Frentzen and Karl Wendlinger drove for the Mercedes-Benz junior team. Michael finished in fifth place in the drivers' leader board and won overall in the brand championship, together with the other Mercedes drivers in the Sauber team.

Together Schumacher and Jochen Mass won the final race in Mexico City.

Your comparing that piece of junk Ferrari with this year BGP01 Heck of a perspective u have.
If Michael had as good a car then, Ferrari would have had their WDC in 1996 itself

Last time, when D Hill, JV, Mika was a champion, it was Newey or M Schumacher?

In 2005 and 2006, when Alonso took the championship, it was Briatore or M Schumacher?

Now, when Jenson is dominating, it is Brawn or M Schumacher?

It does seem like Brawn is the key. After this season MS's rating has to come down. It is clear now just how much Ross Brawn can do for a driver not only technically, but also strategically and through #1/#2 driver policies. I mean Jenson is a very good driver and all, but come on, we all know just how his apparent value has been transformed now. The really interesting question now becomes, how would MS have done at Williams or McLaren (of old - not the current copycat team that also has #1/#2 driver policy). Most likely he would not seem quite so special at all.

Thanks a lot for this. However, you might not know that Frans is the biggest MS's basher and denier who never care about facts. He stated that Jo V. is the greatest F1 driver ever . So I am afraid your effort will miss his deaf year.

Apparently it was Ron Dennis that gave us goosebumps, when we looked in the eyes of Kimi, as we remembered Ron Dennis, the boss of the late Ayrton. Nothing special about the drivers.

You are never hostile: on the contrary I agree that Brawn is a very special man, so we just put our emphasis in different factors. it's quite all right to disagree, we need not fight each other.

And a happy birthday to you too.

so far the poll speaks for itself.

and this was race what? 5? ..........

This is an opinion from Alain Prost.

"Without a driver of his calibre, Ferrari would hardly have survived the last five seasons without a title. Without Michael, the team would have been politically destroyed."

Source BBC Prost: Schumacher is better than me

Which is exactly the point: "If Michael had as good a car then...." - it proves that even mighty Schumi could do nothing without a decent car.
Ross by contrast made that Brawn GP car out of the ashes that was Honda F1.

I think in the history of F1 it will be difficult to find a similar accomplishment. Far from being a fan of Ross (in fact I still fear that he will never give Rubens more than number 1 b status - then again, where would Rubens' career have been without Ross?) I have to salute his achievement.

A nice read.... especially love the innocent phrasing about Macau '90 and the total silence over MS' DTM adventures...

I heard Michael and Jenson both wear tighty whitys. Therefore their overall success comes down to the shape and size of their underpants.

Exactly

The only head to head battle in 96 shows a clear picture. Ferrari/MS 3 victories - Benetton/Brawn 0 victories.
Despite the Benetton having a better car and the superior strategist Ross Brawn.

MS win in Spa 96 was a good strategic win (coming in the pits at the deployment of SC) not masterminded by Ross. And executed perfectly by Michael.

Not saying that Ross isn't the best strategist around, far from it. He in combination with Michael was the best combo seen for ages.
But is Ross the sole reason for Michaels succes? Hmmm, I don't think so.

Some fans come up with really creative ideas regarding MS. (And them being AS fans is surely a pure coincidence). Go figure...

I'm not sure how you compare 'Ferrari/MS 3 victories - Benetton/Brawn 0 victories' without oversimplistically assuming everything else is equal. I mean, what's to say if during that time Benetton had had a driver as good as MS things might have been different?

I'd prefer to assume that MS is the best driver of his era and Brawn the best technical guy of his era. I think MS further ahead of his field than Brawn is of his. BUT, its quite plausible that Brawn still makes the bigger difference.

What about the time taken to have an effect? Could any other technical leader in F1 have joined Honda in the state they were in and in less than a year have Brawn DOMINATING F1?

I don't disagree. You raise some good points.
Ross is exceptional in his area. I also think he can extract the best out of his drivers somehow. Maybe it's his calmness, his self assurance, I don't know.

My post is more directed at some here who use this opportunity to take a dig at MS. Without looking at the whole picture.

No worries, you managed to convincingly beat them in the creativity contest:

Is that all you can come up with?
Tell me what's creative with my statement then.

Sure I was in a hurry, grabbed the first one I saw and to be honest not overly keen to put a lot of effort into a silly thread, however you are right but only as much as his excellent championship endeavours in Japan are missing for example.

Macau 90? take your choice, MS was in first place defending, it wasn't luck, he did something skillful over the whole weekend to be there on the last lap. The crash was clearly Mika's problem (I didnt say fault) because he didnt need to do the pass as he was in the lead on time, he only had to be within 3 seconds of MS - stupid, egotistical move by him.

During that period they couldn't have done it all without each other IMO, but overall it is Ross who can provide the biggest boost to any team.

Michaels DTM (and sportscar) period had been a blast, WHahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, chuckle * Koff ** FoFF ** Whahahahaaaaaaahahaaaaa....
here's one excample of his great driving there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xi-C1hyFM <<< Esecially when they say:"Mercedes jongler Schumacher zorgt fur das richtigen knall-effect" Hahahaha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_World_Sp...pionship_season << 2 dutch guys even in front of huim and he was the 2nd best German, overall place what? 9th place...

1989: 14 races, only 2 wins.
1990: 16 races, 7 wins...
1991: 19 races, 1 single win in Sportscars. (check the wiki link above about that)


But seriously, doesn't the poll speak for itself? Come on....

yeah, it shows about a 3rd of the people have no knowledge of f1

Maybe we should make a poll with the question: Is Formula One a SPORT or a BUSINESS ???

Now, I know a LOT of people are NOT going to like the result of that poll......... some even won't see it.

Uhm, based on what exactly?

How do You quantify the 'boost' provided only by the technical director to any team. How can You deduce the boost of Brawn from the overall boost given by Todt, Montezemolo, Schumacher, Dyer, Byrne, Tombazis, Martinelli, Balbir Singh, Stepney, the hundreds of mechanics and engineers, the simulators, the windtunnels?

And I'd love to see the methods to understand how much of the Brawn GP cars' on track advantage is derived from Brawn being the tech director, and how much from the wind tunnels, the designers? AFAIK Ross did not design those cars by himself, nor did he design the F2002 or the F2004.

I'd love to see your mathematical formulas.

so far we agree completely



Agreement has vanished suddenly.

Mika simply tried to race, and overtake in a normally ultra-safe place, on the straight. It wasn't as if he had attempted a do or die outbrake into a tight corner.

It would only deserve to be called stupid if he would have had a crystal ball.

are you serious? do you understand the role Ross plays at BrawnGP?

Enlighten me.

Hey don't get me wrong, huge Mika fan here but seriously he only had to finish close behind and thats exaclty where he was - regardless of smart ass quips about MS that abound here, passing in motor racing at anytime is a risk and it wasn't one he needed to take, he was already in the lead.

Stupid is as stupid as.

Cant believe that I am responding to this guy.

But - I was trying hard to find what those 19 pre-f1 races were in 1991 and I finally realized that you had added up the 6 f1 races(with Jordan & Benetton) to get the 19 races,1 win stat for 1991.

Anyone interested in looking at Schumacher's pre-f1 career without jaundiced eyes can look at his wikipedia page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schum...#Career_summary

Granted - he wasn't and isn't that great in non open-wheel cars(and it's been shown up in the RoC as well).

That's of course technically true, but evidently not the style of either Hakkinen or Schumacher to go racing, especially at such an early stage of their career.

I'm pretty sure that had their roles been reversed in that race, MS would have also tried to win the 2nd leg, despite technically only needing to finish close behind. It may have been unnecessary but to call it stupid is quite harsh.

Let's face it, in the end it comes down to what one believes happened: did Mika simply run into the back of MS or did the latter "lift-test" him?

I'm making an educated guess that you would go for the first option? Equally predictable, I'm leaning heavily towards option two...

Because Ross consciously decided in 2008 to concentrate on 2009 right away. Schumi went for it in 1996, no special focus shifted already on 1997 in order to win the WDC then (unless you think Michael's move on Jacques Villeneuve was premeditated by a year , anyway, it got him disqualified from the championship instead of winning it). As it was, it took Michael another 4 years to become WDC.

We do not know of course, if Brawn will really win the championship in 2009, but all signs point to it.
In that context I would say another prove of Brawn's wisdom and competence, to forego 2008 for 2009 instead of doing a Schumi, trying 1996 and finally winning it only in 2000 (with the patronage of Brawn then).