I really would like to know your insights into this: Schumacher did all his WDCs with Ross Brawn, however, in long distance racing (Mercedes-Benz sportscar team for 1990) Schumi was behind Wendlinger and Frentzen, he did not look like the outstanding driver that he turned out to be (or seemed to turn out to be) in F1.

True enough, Ross Brawn did all his championship years with Schumacher at the steering wheel, wait, yes, in 1999 he nearly made Eddie Irvine WDC, had it not been for the unspeakable Ferrari pit crew, which tried to fit three tyres on a four-wheeled Ferrari F1 car.

And now, at Brawn GP, Jenson Button looks at ease like Michael Schumacher in his hey day, courtesy of Ross Brawn. He even got the same number 1a, Rubens Barrichello! And maybe will soon have Rory Byrne in the team as well.

Is Ross the ultimate championship team maker? Would Schumi have done 7 WDC´s without him?

How many time does the same question have to be asked?
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php...threadid=107350

The categories given were different and did not include the possibility that they both "made" each other. After all, human beings learn from each other and perfect each other. The poll you mention went

Ross Brawn 71%
M Schumacher 29%

a bit extreme in Ross´favour, don´t you think?

WHAT? he was about to be caught by Kubica who was in inferior car to brawn gp. Sure the heyday

How many races has Ross Brawn won without a dominant or at least very competitive car?

You don't think the safety cars played a big part in that?

So it seems more and more that Ross has been the main factor in their mutual success, not Schumi. Even Button starts doing a Schumi...
Of course Eddie Irvine was right when he said in 2001 that you still need a decent driver to put Ross´strategies to work.

But then again, apart from Button that would be Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Vettel and Kubica, probably even Trulli, who could do it right now - I think Schumi had a historic opportunity and made good use of it.

Let Brawn continue winning next season,without the DD advantages and then the question can be asked.Right now,it's jumping the gun.

He didnt do anything last season with Honda.Doesn't mean anything either.

This logic doesn't apply.
Ross is not a driver, he is a car maker.

Seriously, how pathetic is it this far removed from his retirement that there are Schumacher haters *still* trying to discredit his achievements?


Answer: Beyond pathetic (as in get a life).

Thank you.

No point in making comparisons - since you have to look at the entire field. It's one thing taking a very good car and finishing first - it is another thing to take a good car and finishing in front of an equally good car, or taking a bad car and finishing close to the best cars. So you can't just take the Button-Brawn in isolation - but have to take account of the entire environment.

Ross Brawn and any good F1 driver would have very similar results to Brawn and Schumacher imho. Schumacher was a good driver on a great team with the best straightest that F1 has ever seen. It makes me wonder who would have more wins Ross Brawn and some other driver say Mika or Schumacher with some other brain at the pit wall say Ron Dennis?

PS: This is not Schumacher bashing it is Ross Brawn praising

So,there have been 3 seasons that Brawn has been without Schumacher since 1991.

1996 & 2007 - Brawn didnt do anything of note.
This is the 1st yr where he has had some success(albeit with heavily disputed rule interpretations) and all of a sudden,we have this talk about how he walks on water.

It's really apples and oranges.

What had Brawn to do with Schumacher's brilliant in- and outlaps for example, or with his poles and consecutive fastest laps?

What had Brawn and/or Schumacher to do with the design of the F2002, F2004 or BGP01 -like rocketships?

What could have Schumacher done in present days Ferrari team when he'd be left stuck in Q1 without 2nd tries, sent out on full wets in the sun, left with a fuel hose still attached after pitstops, etc?

In the absence of MS, Ferrari's Brawn forgot the car was run on four wheels. They were in steady decline till MS turned up at Sepang they became a force again.




Ross is the ultimate team maker?
Time will tell. RD, FW, PH, Newey have proven they could win the multiple championship with different champions.

Would Schumi have done 7 WDC´s without Ross?
Most likely, MS would have done more than 7 WDCs by going after the best car. The door was widely open for him to do that. Why should he waste his precious time and effort trying to revive the mess? It took him 4 years to finally clinch the coveted WDC for Ferrari, at times it looked almost unattainable task. From 1996 - 1999, it was MS at his prime. IF WDC is what counts for MS, IMO he wasted 4 best opportunities at the expense of his prime time. Not only that, he was risking his reputation by taking desperate measure against JV at Jerez 1997, and his leg at Silverstone 1999. IMO both events wouldn't have taken place IF he were driving the best car.

Alas... could have, would have, should have...

IF words from experts carry some weight, Jackie Stewart said,""Michael brought Ferrari from 21 years of not winning a world title to being champions many times. I put that down much more to him than president Luca di Montezemolo or team boss Jean Todt. Without Michael Schumacher it would not have happened." Source BBC Motorsport.

Didn't he spend the year fishing? I bet, being Brawn, he caught a 40lb salmon with nothing more than his bare teeth whereas Chuck Norris only got a 30lb one.

So there.

Regards

Andy

I think most will agree to a simple statement
having Ross in your team is better than not having him in your team, the same as any driver who is the best at the time, or designer etc etc etc
However the key word is team.
No one from the drivers to the managers and designers are anything unless they are part of a team.
A team will not win just because they have the best whoever in a team all it does is helps it still takes the whole to get the win.
After all you can have the best driver in the best car with the best strategy and even the best pit crew and find a cleaner in your workshop did not do their job which allows dust to get where it should not that leads to a faulty mold that creates a stress point in a part that fails 1/2 a lap from the finish.
OK extreme and unlikely but i think it makes the point.
He may be good, maybe even the best at what he does but he is just part of a team.

We need a poll for that.

and my post should read 2008.

I think people are giving Brawn a bit too much credit. I give him credit for strong strategic moves during the races, and to putting the team together, but he did'nt design the car nor does'nt he drive the car. Button has done a very good job this year, which obviously is easier in the front with less traffic for a cautious racer but consistent pace producer and car saver like him.

As for Schumacher, he was flattered by number 1 treatment, just like Button now. But still I think Schumacher have produced more remarkable performances than Button so far. Most of the difference obviously comes from the car.

option 3 in this poll is absolutely rediculous.

It always has been Brawn, always.....

Years from now, on judgment day, the world will be split into two groups, those that though Schumacher was the talent, and those that though Brawn was the talent.

St. Peter will open the envelope with the correct answer: 'Stepney', the correct answer was ''Stepney".

Thanks for playing.

Thanks for putting a perspective on the whole issue!

Strategies mean nothing unless you have a driver who can execute it. I think people forget how good Michael was at reading a race as well. Maybe not as good as Ross, but it's not like he was hopeless if Ross wasn't around.

Stepney...too funny.

True. But a good driver with a bad strategy to execute will have a bad result, it is a two way street

So who would have better results

Top car / Brawn / Mika
or
Top car / Ron Dennis / Schumacher

what combo would you choose?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0iW2lLRjM...feature=related

Didn't see any strategy gaining MSC 4 sec a lap

I rest my case.



Both are great in their job, just leave it be.

I understand the need to raise the issue.

However, Ross Brawn strategies were dependent on Schumacher being able to be faster than anyone else when required.

I don't know how many championships Schumacher would have won without Brown, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that even without Brown Schumacher would have been as great a champion as he came to be.

May I suggest that anyone that doubts Schumacher's ability and incredible talent have only to search Utube? compare one of his best laps and then search for equivalents from Alonso, Hamilton, Hakkinnen or Raikkonen: you will not find them. Schumacher, even if he was a flawed talent (fairness-wise) was a truly amazing driver. I have never watched anyone similar.

..

Thanks for the link, Schumacher is one of the great rain drivers of all time. Indeed, there have been a number of others (not least Senna) pulling off similar stellar rain performances.

However, a swallow doesn´t make a summer, and Schumachers championship challenge in 1996 (without Brawn) was in no way as poignant as Brawns championship challenge in 2009 (without Schumacher).

The voting being done on this poll shoes how the majority views the situation.

Pretty much my line of thinking, except I am not imaginative to come up with anything better than:

Schumacher + Brawn, the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.

Here you can see why Ross Brawn's strategies worked.

..

Uhm, a swallow?...

7 WDCs, 91 GP wins, 154 podiums, 68 poles, 1369 points is a swallow?

WTF are You smoking?

Awesome. Though for lunatics it proves nothing, of course.

As for lunatics, where's karlth, when You need Hungary 1998 revisited...

I am left to guessing what Ross Brawn actually did during his tenure at Ferrari. In contrast, we have quite a lot of evidence what MS did all those years; no guessing there. As we are today, Schumi wins again hands down.

Yes, the Goodyear tyres were simply dominant on the Hungaroring that year, especially with a three-stop strategy. 1998 had some pronouncedly Bridgestone favouring and some Goodyear-favouring circuits.

It was a remarkable year, remembering the epic battles between Hakkinen and Schumacher to the end...

Karlth, is that You?

All courtesy of the cooperation between Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn, except for 3 wins, 8 podiums, 4 poles and 59 points done by Schumi without Ross.

Contrast that with the 5 wins, 8 podiums, 4 poles and 86 points that Ross Brawns cars did without Schumi in the first six races this year alone.

As has been said above, the two together (Ross and Schumi) were greater than the sum of the parts.

vrba, is that you?

Hopeless.

Yes, you are hopeless.

I was just stating that Ross and Michael together were greater than both of them without the other.

Why is this so hard to cope with?

Ross plus Michael: 7 WDCs, 88 GP wins, 146 podiums, 64 poles, 1310 points
Michael without Ross: 3 wins, 8 podiums, 4 poles and 59 points (1996 - 16 races)
Ross without Michael: 5 wins, 6 podiums, 4 poles and 51 points (2009 - Button in the first six races alone)

For fairness´ sake I have subtracted the second drivers´ score from Brawns record, still it seems that Brawn in 2009 is gonna beat Schumi in 1996.

pffffffffft. traction control at work right there mate. it was illegal back then, remember>?

And Hungary 1998? Do you remember Hungary 1997? Much more fun there, lap 11 especially.

As aditya-now already pointed out, we just need to watch a ocuple of more races this season and another myth about Schoe-mecher will be wiped of the books and minds of people, this Brawn GP in 2009 is an eye opener for many fanboys out there. Just wait a bit more and it will be evident. But it's like if you don't want to see it, you probably won't.

So, someone is tired of seeing the Lewis Vs Schumacher and now does a Button

The whole concept of this question is quite ridiculous.

The best driver is required as is the designer and so on.

Without Schumi then who? Neither Irvine or Barrichello were as consistent or as sublime as Schumi. Similarly, Button upstages his teammate.

How good is Button? At Spa in 2000, newly into the Williams he outqualified MIchael Schumacher's Ferrari.

Drivers such as these including Senna, Prost and so on are all part of the package.

Clark and Chapman - one more.

Brawn VS Schumacher ?

1996 : Schumacher won over Benetton+Byrne+Brawn.

End of the story.

Several drivers and others have mentioned that due to regulations it was before this season 70-90% the car. Given that, this poll tilts the advantage to any car developer.

IMO these comparisons work even less than between driver from different teams and even different seasons. Why the need to rewrite history?

There is a reason why it was called the dream team.

Don't forget the 98 Benetton drivers comments about the almost unchanged car from 97.

They talk about silly season in F1 its seems to be silly season here at the moment.

The polls and topics are getting ridiculous but hey anyway to the topic, who was responsable for MS's extremely good record before he came to F1 and I'm talking open wheelers including karts pre his very short sports car run? How many times German Champion in various classes?

Why don't you try reading his bio in depth including his first ever F1 drive at Spa where without ever driving there before he set 7th fastest in the Jordan to the disbelief of some teams who asked for the timing equipment to be checked and was Brawn responsable for his wet weather performances when he often took many seconds per lap over anybody else? In Spain 1996 he was around 4 seconds a lap faster than everybody else in the rain and not a Brawn in sight.

As for the combination of a team overall you just don't seem to understand how a team works and yes MS would be extremely grateful to have had Brawn around as theres no doubt some stratergy calls won races and including down to Guy who prepares a balanced nutrious lunch giving energy for the race duration.

He was talking about 1996 I made it larger to help you as you obviouly didnt see it clearly.

In your desperation to win an argument,you just lost your credibility.

Sure Brawn has done great things, but everytime the camera points at him this season, he looks like a tired old drunk, well I think so lol

Why don't you compare between Schumacher's championship challenge in 1996 and Brawn's championship challenge in 2008? MS and RB were in their new team without each other.